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View Full Version : what models would you need to do a whole space marine chapter?



Witchfire
27-06-2007, 19:32
I'm thinking of doing a whole chapter.
Maybe after I finish my aeronautica imperialis orks, khemri battalion, epic armageddon world eaters (post heresy) and my ever expanding beastmen...

Hena
27-06-2007, 19:58
Everything several times?

Biggest budget point would be buying ~20-30 thunderhawks and transporters :).

Witchfire
27-06-2007, 20:01
I mean, there are 1000 marines in a chapter, some are tacticals, some assaults, some terminators...e.t.c. basically- what are the contents of a space marine chapter?

Thommy H
27-06-2007, 20:35
20 bases of Terminators, 88 bases of Tacticals, 36 bases of Assaults, 36 bases of Devestators, an indeterminate number of Scouts.

feintstar
28-06-2007, 01:22
That's the troops. What I'm pretty unclear on is if you're feilding predator squadrons, T.Hawk Gunships, Landspeeders, Bikers etc., do you actually cut into that number of infantry or not? If there truly is only 1000 Space Marines per chapter, and supposing 3 marines per predator and 2 per whirlwind, then a tank company and a fast attack squadron is looking at around 100 men... And that's not even beginning to figure in the THawks, and whosoever might be manning the orbiting Space Marne Battlebarge. They would hardly leave it undefended/defended by mere servitors...

So is a chapter's actual strength far less than its theoretical strength? Was roboute Guilliman a complete smeghead?

Hena
28-06-2007, 03:48
I think that nowdays it's assumed that assault marines use bikes and speeders. However I'm fairly certain that the gunner and drivers of vehicles are extra over that 1000 marine limit.

Btw, pretty much all marine tanks operate on 2 crew (driver and gunner, predator, land raider etc) or a single crew (rhino, razorback etc). Thunderhawk had 3, I think. And spacecraft have very few marines to their sizes (but a lot of servitors). Marines use high amount of automation to keep the crew amount very low.

deathwing_marine
28-06-2007, 04:09
Most of the Space Marine vehicles seem to de driven/piloted by servitors.

Also, the Chapter Organization pages in the Space Marines codex shows the amount of each type of squad, plus where bikes and vehicles fit in. The leftover number of Marines (if there is one) from the Terminator/veteran, tactical, assault, and devestator squads could be assumed to fill in the Chapter specialists (chaplains, librarians, etc), scouts, and pilots

EyEwitness
28-06-2007, 15:55
To model a chapter the minimum models required are:
Supreme Commander
10 Standard Bearers
10 Captains
10 Chaplins
10 Apothicaries
1 Librarian
1 Techmarine
92 Terminators
46 Sergents
426 Marines
116 Heavy Weapons
180 Assault Marines
97 Scouts (could be more or less)
80 Rhinos
20 Land Raiders
9 Dreadnoughts

That assumes that:
Tactical squad = 1 Sergent, 1 Heavy Weapon and 8 Marines.
Devastator squad = 1 Sergent, 4 Heavy Weapons and 5 Marines.
Assault squad = 10 Assault Marines.
Terminator squad = 10 Terminators.
1st company is using Land Raiders not Rhinos.
Captains & Chaplins replace Sergents, if you use in assault unit add another Sergent to the list and remove an Assault Marine.
Standards and Apothicaries replace standard Marines.
Supreme Commander, Chapter Standard, Librarian and Techmarine are in Terminator units.
There are 10 Scout squads, could be more or less.
There are probably a lot more Libraians and Techmarines, tweak the list to taste!:cheese:

I'd say the vehicle detachments in the army list represent 2 vehicle squads (similar to Assault or Devastator detachments). That'd mean there are 20 vehicles in a vehicle company, so assuming one of each type of company thats:
20 Predators
20 Whirlwinds/Hunters
20 Land Raiders
20 Vindicators
20 Razorbacks

Bikes and LandSpeeders would replace Marines from the companies, 1 Marine per Bike, or 2 Marines per Attack Bike/LandSpeeder, but you'll have to replace an entire squad not just halves.

Couldn't even begin to guess at how many Thunderhawks, Drop Pods, or Landing Craft there are. There is a post on Specialist games forum that was discussing how many ships a chapter has, I think it was 1 Battle Barge, 2-3 Strike Crusiers and a few smaller escorts, but I could be totally wrong.

Hena
28-06-2007, 17:06
I think it's more like 3 barges 10 cruisers and some amount of smaller escorts? Ultras at least had 5 barges listed in one place...

orangesm
28-06-2007, 17:30
Alright so how to break this down. I would separate the project into the 10 Companies and how you want to deploy them.
At present a Chapter has 1000 Marines plus command Staff

1st Company
1 Captain
1 Chaplain
1 Standard Bearer
25-50 Terminators
75-50 Veteran Marines (currently do not have a datafax)
Battle Company (2nd, 3rd, 4th, & 5th)
1 Captain
1 Chaplain
1 Standard Bearer
3 Dreadnaughts
60 Tactical Marines - with 6 Rhinos*
20 Assault Marines - drive Bikes, Attack Bikes, and Landspeeders
20 Devastator Marines - with 2 Rhinos*
Reserve Company
1 Captain
1 Chaplain
1 Standard Bearer
3 Dreadnaughts
100 Tactical (6th & 7th) or Assault (8th) or Devastator (9th) Marines - with 10 Rhinos* can drive Bikes/Attack Bikes/Landspeeders/Tanks from Armory
Scout Company
1 Captain
1 Chaplain
45-135 Neophytes + 5-15 Battle Brother Sergeants

Librarium
15 Librarians of various ranks

Forge/Armory
20 Techmarines of various ranks
Rough # follow:
20 Whirlwinds, 20 Predators of each type, 16 Land Raiders, 4 LR Crusaders, 3 LR Hyperios, 2 LR Promethisus, 10 Damocles, 30 Razorbacks

*Rhinos actually are suppose to be immobile once a squad of 10 Marines exits - one of those 10 Marines is the driver!

The Codex Astrates (or rather what we know about the Codex Astrates) sets a limit on the number of Battle Brothers. This allows Chapters to have large Scout Companies and depending upon interpetation a large staff of Elder Marines to lead the chapter.

Baaltharus
29-06-2007, 01:02
*Rhinos actually are suppose to be immobile once a squad of 10 Marines exits - one of those 10 Marines is the driver!

The Codex Astrates (or rather what we know about the Codex Astrates) sets a limit on the number of Battle Brothers. This allows Chapters to have large Scout Companies and depending upon interpetation a large staff of Elder Marines to lead the chapter.

Thats not true, rhinos have a totally seperate driver from the combat squad they transport.

Codex Astartes states that a battle Company should have 100 battle brothers. Those who make up the variable number of bikes, landspeeder, tanks and APCs drivers/gunners are in excess to this amount.

In all likelihood a SM chapter is far closer to 1500 SMs in strength than the 1000 stated to make up its Companies.

Al.

orangesm
29-06-2007, 01:52
My source for the info on the Rhino is Imperial Armour II and its entry on the Rhino, I may be off due to not having it in front of me, but memory serves me that 2 Marines sit up front - driver and sergeant with the remaining 8 in back.

Bikes and Landspeeders draw from the Assault Squads for Battle Companies (Codex Ultramarines 2nd Edition and various other sources). Again I do not have the sources in front of me but I can point to them.

None of the vehicle crews are excess. They are drawn from the Battle Brothers in the companies be it the Reserve Companies or Battle Companies.

Now if you have sources to back up your statements that are more recent please let us know. Or do you just like being contrary to me?

Baaltharus
29-06-2007, 02:32
I'm not trying to be contrary to you at all, I'm simply stating the facts as I percieve them. A full battle Company is always supposed to be 100 Astartes divided into their given classes, the Imperial armour may say the driver is part of the squad but the source is Forge World, notourious for questionable info (as well as printing lol).

As to the bikes and speeders I've read that there drawn from assault squads of a Company but I'm also certain I've read contrary info as well.

I'm sure tank crews are also seperate from the battle companies members and almost certainly not drawn from reserve Companies (as a Company has to be able to operate individually without support from the reserve Companies). When most of the BA vehicle crews fell to the black rage at Tempestora they had to have another chapter man their vehicles (I forget which one).

I'll have a look for some info at the weekend but I'm sure the crews are seperate, if a SM commander wished to land a strong tank contigent (12 say, and they all have two crew from Landspeeders to Landraiders) then he may need up to or more than 24 marines, a whole quarter of his battle company man them, as well as this he'd loose another 1 for every rhino on the field. Furthermore the marines who crew the Companies landers and Thunderhawks would also have to be taken from the battle companies ranks. It leaves virtually no marines to actually fight on foot.

Al.

Hena
29-06-2007, 06:08
My source for the info on the Rhino is Imperial Armour II and its entry on the Rhino, I may be off due to not having it in front of me, but memory serves me that 2 Marines sit up front - driver and sergeant with the remaining 8 in back.
You got it partially right and partially wrong. There is two in front (driver and sergeant), but there is 9 in the back. So driver is not part of the unit.

orangesm
29-06-2007, 13:31
Damn my failing memory, to much stuff up there grrr... - thank you for correcting me. Sorry Baaltharus.

Baaltharus
01-07-2007, 16:16
No problem Orangesm, its a discussion board after all. To be honest I'm still unsure of where the 'extra' marines are officially attached, are they sort of a mini 'armoury company' or are they officially attached to each of the 10 Companies?

Al.

Hena
01-07-2007, 16:51
I've always thought of them as extra troops and not counted to that 1000 marines thing. Something like a general pool of marines specialised for vehicles in armoury perhaps.

orangesm
01-07-2007, 17:58
I am of the opinion that vehicle crews are most often taken from the reserve companies - except in the case of say Bikes or Landspeeders which are part of the assault squads equipment as well as being manned by the reserve companies.
But what if you just wanted to deploy a single battle company in a mechanized form. There will be 8 Rhinos at least with a possible 10 to mount up the entirity of the Company - so a full squad from another company would have to be attached. Another option is that one of the Tactical Squads takes on the role of Transport crew with any remaining Marines acting as the Captains aids. So Tactical Squad 6 may be driving the 8 (5 Tac Squads, 2 Dev, 1 Command) Rhinos/Damocles, while the Assault squads manage with either Bikes, Landspeeders, or Jump Packs. Whirlwinds and Predators may draw on Devastator Squads - a single Devastator Squad manning 5 Predators.

I think the 'fear' that Baaltharus mentions of losing Marines to vehicle manning is not a common problem for the Marine Commander. If the Marine commander needs a large armored formatino then having the Devastator Squad man the Armoury's vehicles is probably not a problem as he does not need the 'stationary' firepower of the Devastator Squad. So to build a chapter hmm... I think I need to repaint some markings on my Epic Marines - just the Predators.

Baaltharus
02-07-2007, 16:08
I've always thought of it more like Hena, a pool of marines dedicated to manning the tanks and aircraft of the armoury.

Al.

Major_Gilbear
02-07-2007, 18:14
I have always imagened the crew as Hena and Baaltharus do; extra to the 1000 troops. I always assumed they were like staff that formed part of the Techmarines' retinues and were tasked with crewing and looking after the tanks in combat.
I agree that bikes and Landspeeders are crewed by Assault marines tho.

orangesm
02-07-2007, 18:30
The issue I have with having all the additional troops to man the tanks is that this quickly adds an additional company or two worth of Space Marines and adds a squad of Rhino drivers to each company (while ever Space Marine knows how to drive a Rhino). So 300 additional Marines are allowed to exist to simply man vehicles? I think that having an additional 100 Space Marines spread between the Company Staffs, Chapter Staff, Armory's Techmarines, and the Librarium is understandable, but adding a 11th Company - Rhino Drivers, a 12th Company Artillery Company (Vindcators, Whirlwinds, Hunters, and Hyperios) and a 13th Company Armor Company (Predators and Land Raiders seems to fly in the face of the Codex Astrates.

But that is just what I think would happen.

Hena
02-07-2007, 19:13
I didn't mean that they could field them all at once. Perhaps 50 - 100 marines (techmarine included) are there to use and man the vehicles in extra of the 1000 for companis.

Major_Gilbear
02-07-2007, 19:55
Agreed, not *all* the vehicles would in use at once. Plus, SM chapters are rarely at *exactly* 100% strength, so the practical reality of a "full" Chapter is probably close to 1000 anyway.

Hena
05-07-2007, 06:19
Ok, just browsed the IA2 and there was a section in front talking about this kind of stuff. It said that the 6th and 7th reserve companies (tacticals) man the armoury vehicles.

LordoftheMilk
05-07-2007, 06:49
Ok, just browsed the IA2 and there was a section in front talking about this kind of stuff. It said that the 6th and 7th reserve companies (tacticals) man the armoury vehicles.


Isnt it the 6th and 7th that man the bikes and speeders respectively, and the 8th (devs) that man the armoury?

Hena
05-07-2007, 11:18
Bikes was 9th (assault). Dunno about 8th then :).

orangesm
05-07-2007, 13:00
The 8th is Assault and the 9th is Dev at least according to Codex: Space Marines. The 6th and the 7th can man bike and speeders (as well as the 8th). One of the versions of Codex: Space Maine actually has a solid breakdown. Also the Epic rulebook in 5.1 Space Marines - page 75 has a full layout. It does not however answer the question as to where the crews fot he vehicles come from - but does say "Individual armoured vehicles and support gear are supplied to the companies, in appropriate livery, by command of the various captains."