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kyussinchains
13-08-2007, 18:57
or are the forge world super heavy tanks both cheaper AND better than the regular GW ones?

I'm also in need of help with the different armies, so can anyone give me a nice rundown on the main armies (plus the tau as they look amazing) c'mon, if it was WFB I'd do the same for you!! ;)

cheers

Crube
13-08-2007, 19:59
1. Yes :D

2. I'll be looking for these replies too... the Tau do look amazing, if a little pricey

kyussinchains
13-08-2007, 21:25
I'm liking the imperial guard at the moment (always been a bit of a tread head I suppose...)

I also like the feral orks, now are they a self contained force or are they part of the regular ork army?

also, what kind of basis do I need to start my army? will I be financially crippled?

thanks in advance!

orangesm
14-08-2007, 00:45
Curious what you mean by run down.

The two armies that I (and many others) would suggest for beginners are the Imperial Guard and Orks. These two armies play as their background details. The Guard has the Armor Hammer, long range Artillery, and large formations of Infantry. Orks are all about big mixed formations with expendable troops, really fast formations, or the biggest thing an Ork can get their hands on.

Space Marines are the shock troops the background makes them out to be. If you mess up with Space Marines you will most likely lose the battle, but they can also snatch victory from the stomach (not the jaw) of defeat. There are Airborne Space Marine forces, Armored/Ground Transport armies (harder to play), and are all about focused elite attacks that bring superior numbers and firepower to bear on a part of the enemy army.

I hope that was a little helpful, I am not familar as much with the other armies.

Chaos and Evil
14-08-2007, 07:18
Feral Orks are indeed their own stand-alone army in Epic.

CyberShadow
14-08-2007, 14:30
In many cases, FW vehicles are cheaper than SG. This is principally because the FW vehicles started as a little more expensive, and the GW price rise machine went into action.

I would agree with the previous posts - if you are just starting the game, it really is best to go with either IG or Orks from the core rule book. I dont know a single player that only owns one force, so there will be plenty of time to expand.

For the Tau - they work best as a combined force. You will need your Markerlight troops to target, your vehicles armed with Seekers and your Crisis suits for support. They are fairly maneuvrable and a fluid force, and of all of the forces for EA probably reflect 'modern warfare' most closely.

Always happy to answer any specific questions on the little guys! :D

kyussinchains
14-08-2007, 21:17
I've got yet more questions

1. so, what are the typical tactics used within the game?
2. do players always play specific scenarios?
3. what kind of set up do you need as a minimum to make a balanced and competetive army?
4. why is a baneblade's armour save no better than a leman russ? :wtf:
5. are feral orks a worthwhile choice, or are they very subtle (I'd imagine not...) or limited?
6. are the Tau balanced enough? they're not an official list yet (so it appears) so would people whinge if I used them (I love the FW models to death, always loved the techno battlesuits too)

still waiting on general tactics/unit descriptions for the main armies! ;)

Hena
15-08-2007, 06:03
1. Gaah, depends on playing style and army :).
2. Mostly in here we play the GT scenario. It's rather balanced to mean that killing doesn't automatically mean winning.
3. There are to many ways to do it to give simple examples.
4. Baneblade has 3DC. So if can fail 2 saves and still be used. Russ cannot.
5. People on the forums say that ferals are tad overgood (boarboyz are too fast for example). No one here plays them so I can't really say.
6. Tau are still a bit too good. That is hopefully being addressed in next few iterations of the list. In here people would not whine.

Gary
16-08-2007, 17:20
Welcome to Epic, it really is a great game. In answer to your questions:

1.There’s a lot to Epic, but some of the main elements of how the game plays are:

Simultaneous turns. Both players have their turn at the same time and they take it in turns to activate a formation each. When you activate a formation you do everything you want to with it at once (move, fire, engage in close combat etc) - so there is no ‘shooting phase’ etc. This makes it very tactical as you have to choose when to do something as well as what to do – this can make a huge difference.
Blast markers. When you attack something you place blast markers on it (even if you kill nothing). These represent the effect on their morale of being attacked. Blast markers make it harder for units to follow orders and fight in close combat and it reduces their shooting power. This adds to the tactics as you can try to soften up enemies or suppress them, without actually having to kill them.
Mutual support. Units within 15cm of an engagement get to fight, even if they are not part of the combat and have already moved and fought this turn. This means to get the best out of your army you have to make formations work together – for example, you could advance a warlord titan towards an enemy formation and fire all its guns at it. You could then engage the same enemy with (say) some assault marines and the titan could lend a hand. If there was another enemy nearby the titan might even get to fight three times in the turn! Epic is all about being able to spot opportunites like this.

2. Most people play the grand tournament scenario. However, this is less limited than it sounds as it effectively combines about six scenarios into one. There are a number of different goals (destroying the most powerful formation, capturing objectives, keeping enemies off your ground etc) and you win by achieving any two of them by the end of turn three (or four if neither of you made it in turn three). This adds to the tactics as it really is possible to take a beating and still win by out-manoeuvring your opponent. You are free to make up any other scenarios you like, of course.

3. Hmm, there’s a lot to this. 3,000 points is the most common size, so work to that. Make sure you’ve got some flak cover if your opponent has planes. And make sure you’ve got some macro weapons if he has lots of armour. Too much to go into here really.

4. As mentioned by the previous poster, the Baneblade has three damage points while the Russ only has one. Both of them get to re-roll failed saves as they have reinforced armour.

5. Not much experience of Feral Orks I’m afraid.

6. You wouldn’t be able to use Tau in most tournaments yet, but in friendly games I guess most people would like to face them, for the novelty if nothing else :). If you find some units are a bit too powerful then just give your opponent a break and don’t pick too many of them. The Forgeworld models are expensive, but it’s mainly the infantry that’s cripplingly costly – and you don’t need too many of them to make a competitive force (I’ve just blown a chunk of my bonus on a Tau army myself :)).

Anyway, hope that helps – good luck with it.

sigur
16-08-2007, 23:05
Sorry to hop in, but I also have a question that might interest beginners: What about allies? Are allied forces possible? And if so, how do the rules work? Is it very reglemented or more like 2nd edition 40k? (I don't think so but it could be).

Hena
17-08-2007, 04:46
E:A GT tournament lists and scenario don't allow allies. But making a scenario yourself of course could.

Gary
17-08-2007, 12:04
kyussinchains, you mentioned you wanted some more detail on particular armies and the way they play. Here's some for the Marines, with a bit on the Guard too.

Strengths of Space Marines
• Great initiative and strategy rating – this means you will usually get to go first, which can be crucial, and your troops will usually do what you want them to rather than failing to follow orders.
• Resilient and highly skilled (on a stand for stand basis). Your troops are twice as hard to break or suppress as most other armies, and they all have good armour saves and can fight really well in close combats and firefights. If they do break, marines are very easy to rally, and even damaged formations with 2 or 3 stands remaining can be a pain in the neck for your opponent.
• Speed. Your basic troops come with Rhinos, so everything you have is pretty fast. This is great in a game that can be as much about manoeuvre as fighting.
• Precision strikes. You have troops that can easily pick when and where to make their devastating attacks. Terminators can enter play by teleportation at the start of a turn, anywhere on the board. They are very hard, and this can be devastating if you pick the right target. Thunderhawks can assault any target from the air (have to watch out for flak though) and unload 8 stands of assault marines or whatever onto the target. This will also be more than a match for most enemy formations.

Weaknesses of Space Marines
• Hardly any guns. This sounds weird, but all those bolters etc only become useful when you’re in an engagement up close. The marines have very few powerful long range heavy weapons and almost no macro weapons (which disallow saves). A few missile launchers and heavy bolters won’t get you very at all. This means it is almost impossible for you to destroy heavily armoured targets from a distance – you have to get close.
• Small formations. The marines might be very skilled in close combat, but success relies just as much on numbers as skill in an engagement. It is hard for marines to outnumber anyone at all.

People say that marines are a difficult army to start with (especially if you don’t just pick a load of thunderhawks) and this is basically because you really have to co-ordinate formations to get success. You can’t sit back and shoot as you don’t have many decent guns. So you have to get close in order to engage the enemy, trying not to get shot up on the way in. Once you do engage the enemy you will usually outclass him on a stand for stand basis, so your formations will win against similar sized formations. Unfortunately, most enemy formations (at least the ones worth bothering with) will outnumber you. So you have to get several of your detachments close to the enemy at the same time, working together. This is quite hard and takes planning.

In contrast, the Imperial Guard are mainly slow, will hardly ever move first, will often fail orders, have some formations that are very easy to break, can’t do fancy air assaults (although stormtroopers assaulting from Valkyries can be a sight to see) or teleport and, on a man for man basis, are not very skilled.

But they have loads of guns and loads of armour, and this counts for a lot. You can stick a company of Leman Russ pretty much anywhere, on its own, and most of the time it will be alright. You have ten tanks. Each of them has a 4+ re-rollable save, so there’s not much that can cut them down. If the company gets to fire a full volley of all its weapons it rolls 40 dice to hit :evilgrin: Most enemies will find that this smarts a bit :)

This is why the Imperial Guard can be quite forgiving, and a good army to start with. However, if you want a challenge, there’s nothing quite as satisfying as getting a ground based space marine army to work really well.

CELS
18-08-2007, 11:25
On the subject of Tau, I tend to regularly get my ass handed to me by Hammerheads and Crisis teams, though I couldn't tell you if that's because they're too powerful or if I'm just not very clever with Epic :p

I will say this though; Forgeworld's Epic models, while beautiful, are fragile. I mean, all resin models are fragile, but the FW Epic Firewarrior models are so fragile that if your cat breaks wind in their general direction, they're likely to be ripped apart. If I was playing Tau, I'd probably see about converting/proxying some Eldar plastic models, because it's frustrating to bite your fingernails throughout the game as you worry about your miniatures. Especially since they're so expensive.

kyussinchains
20-08-2007, 10:39
thanks for the info guys!

I reckon I'm going to start imperial guard, what kinds of different 'builds' does the army have? should I take a bit of everything, or focus on a specific area like tanks or artillery?

can anyone give me a sample army list/setup which will give me a bit of everything, possibly with a slight lean towards tanks (I want lots of them)

is there anything indispensable I should be sticking on my shopping list regardless?

cheers for the advice, I really appreciate it!

CELS
20-08-2007, 12:06
Well, I'm not sure if I should be giving advice, since I don't have the best track record in the world, but I figure that you should buy some Hydras, Thunderbolts and Vultures regardless. Hydras are excellent against both aircraft and ground units, same goes for Thunderbolts (though mostly just for harassing ground units, once you have air supremacy) and Vultures help to put your opponent on his toes, thanks to their very powerful one-hit punch and long range (120 cm!). Vultures are also exceptionally fast and manoeuverable, so they're easy to get in position to fire.

Leman Russ companies are mandatory if you like tanks. They're awesome. I occassionally bring two full companies, which is great fun, but requires a bit of thinking. I also find that it's very useful to have at least a single artillery battery (or company). While they won't destroy too much single-handedly (except if you're playing horde armies), they're useful for adding blast markers and breaking units that are already close to breaking.

For a sample armylist, check out my IG vs Tau report posted not too long ago :)
(Somewhat unorthodox army though. I'll post another sample for you if no one else does)

Dwarf Supreme
20-08-2007, 16:48
When I play IG, I usually take a company of Lemans and a company of artillery and I always take a Supreme Commander. The SC's reroll capability is very handy, especially with my luck! Until you get a firm grasp on the basic rules, shy away from using War Engines, aircraft and aerospace operations. Including them right away makes the learbning process harder.

Gary
20-08-2007, 23:03
Hi. Sorry for the series of long posts. I like waffling about Epic :D.

A 3,000 point list a bit like the one below might be a reasonable thing to aim at for the Guard. Something to work towards anyway, you can certainly start with smaller games than 3,000. This list gives you a taste of most of the different types of troops – it’s not super competitive (4 Warhounds anyone?), but it would certainly put up a great fight against most opponents and be fun to play.

I’ve left aircraft out as this is probably a part of the game you’ll move onto later. I’ve put flak in though, as Hydras are pretty good at killing off ground troops as well as aircraft – and it probably won’t be long before you move on to aerospace stuff, so it’s worth getting some Hydras early.

I’ve put a few war machines in – they are a more advanced part of the game so it may be easier not to use them when you start out, but they’re not that complicated to use, and the game’s not quite the same without them, so I couldn’t resist!

Here goes:

Companies
• Tank Company (650pts). The core of most armies. Tough and destructive.
• Regimental HQ with Fire Support in Chimeras and Flak upgrade (700pts). The HQ is very hard to live without, as it gives you the crucial supreme commander initiative re-roll. I’ve beefed it up with some fire support co you can use its speed and weight of numbers to charge about the table grabbing objectives and engaging fools.
• Infantry company with fire support (350pts). These guys can be vulnerable, though the fire support makes them a bit more formidable. Probably best to use them to hold objectives in cover (which improves infantry saves). Maybe garrison them in an advanced position.

Support
• Super heavy tank – Shadowsword (200pts). These guys are generally more useful than Baneblades for the points. They give you long range hitting power that can take down titans. And are just cool. The volcano cannon hits on a 2+ and allows no saves, even for targets that normally have a re-rollable save:evilgrin:
• Artillery battery – 3 Manticores (250pts). It’s useful to have some artillery, for the ability to hit anything on the board, even if it’s skulking at the back. They can be vulnerable though, and will be top of your opponent’s hit list, so probably best to get a battery rather than a full company of 9 pieces. Manticores hit harder than Basilisks and have the great Disrupt ability, but they have to spend a turn reloading.
• Vulture squadron (300pts). Great fun and cool models. They have the wonderful one-shot hellstrike missiles, which hit on a 2+ and have 120cm range! They give you a taste of skimmers and also some much needed speed, which is useful in the later stages when you need to grab objectives. They are vulnerable though and, like artillery, they will be right at the top of your opponent’s list of things to kill.
• Flak battery – 3 Hydras (150pts). Of course you don’t really need flak if your opponent has no planes, but these guys can lay down some pretty good anti-personnel fire as well. And once you do start using aircraft, they are all but indispensable.
• Rough Rider platoon (150pts). Fragile, but can be great in assault. They have a long charge range and an extra attack with the cool first strike ability. I like to stick a commissar in this formation and send him charging in. The other advantage is that this formation is cheap, which is useful as it increases your number of activations, which can give you a tactical advantage in the game.

Titan Legions
• Warhound Titan (250pts). These guys are great. Fast and reliable enough to be anywhere on the board when you really need them. Tough enough to survive most things, and shooty enough to be able to deal with the majority of enemies. I wouldn’t leave home without one. I heartily recommend the Forgeworld version, which is a great model.

Hope this helps. It’s a pretty balanced and effective list I think, but there are loads of other possibilities. Epic is generally a well balanced game, so you can pick very different lists that will still perform well.

kyussinchains
21-08-2007, 21:38
thanks for the advice and sample list!

only a single super heavy tank? wouldnt it be better to go for the more versatile baneblade? I'm going to buy the forgeworld ones anyway, so I'll have 3 of each to use and play around with!

I'm also loving the warhound titan models, but which is better to go for? vulcan mega bolter/plasma blastgun or turbo laser/inferno cannon? I can't even find the rules for the latter!

in a few weeks I'll be ordering my first stuff, I'm going for a leman russ company, an infantry company, a character pack, a couple of fire support packs, 3 baneblades and 2 warhounds, I'll add in artillery and air support next!

anyone else got anything to add? perhaps to convince me to collect a different army?

Hena
22-08-2007, 06:27
Baneblades problem is that Leman Russes do same job as it. Shadowsword has it's niche that it's best at. Baneblades are in general considered little under powered for their cost.

AMTL allows variable weapon titans. So I would suggest getting vulcan + plasma. Frankly the Turbolaser + inferno is very bad combination of weapons. Vulcan+inferno is a lot better (in AMTL list).

Well after playing few games with air rules, you will notice why Thunderbolts and Hydras are used a lot :).

kyussinchains
23-08-2007, 13:16
do the imperial guard infantry stands come with heavy weapon teams, or do you need to buy the fire support packs?

Hena
23-08-2007, 16:08
Fire Support units can only be got from the blister.

Chaos and Evil
23-08-2007, 19:39
In general heavy weapons are abstracted... most people don't represent them on their basic infantry bases.

kyussinchains
23-08-2007, 19:43
are you meant to model the autocannons in your infantry companies? or is it just assumed that they carry them?


In general heavy weapons are abstracted... most people don't represent them on their basic infantry bases.

and that just answered my question!

KingNic
24-08-2007, 13:58
It might be worth it to try and track down some of the epic40k era sprues on ebay. They used to come with oodles of extras and characters. I managed to pick up a ton of the Ork sprues for very cheap and they included plastic stompas, bikes, boarboyz and commanders - much cheaper than getting all the blisters!

dancingmonkey
03-09-2007, 19:22
I echo the above, I got a load of the guard infantry sprues which come with autocannons. I put 1 per 2 stands (a la tac marines), so six per standard company (if my epic memory serves me correctly) You can put one with the command stand too if you fancy! mkaes him look special, also cool to have a ratling or ogryn every so often, just to break things up a bit...

I also used a tech marine for the ad mech character that was present in the pre release armeggedon rules, sadly he didn't make it into the final version...