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View Full Version : Better late than never: a quick review of the new CSM codex



Eldanar
17-08-2007, 03:10
I finally had a chance to sit down a perview the impending codex (it is amazing how quickly this one seemed to leak out and soar across the 'Net).

I am interested in it only from a players perspective. I honestly could care less about the art, the background, etc. I only want to know rules, points costs (which you won't get much of here), and most importantly playability.

Needless to say I was originally in the somewhat chagrined camp of serious Chaos players who were/are somewhat discouraged by the rumors and inuendo. However, I do not think we came out nearly as bad as I first feared.

What I was worried about was the loss of shooting, the loss of veteran skills, the loss of customization and the loss of daemons.

But first, a quick analysis of each of the sections:

1. The first thing I was worried about was them fiddling with my HQ options too much. This is where the loss of customization and the loss of the daemons could have hit hard. I liked to field a Khorne DP with a Bloodthirster; an almost unstoppable tandem by all accounts.

Here the new DP is not quite as powerful as what a really tooled up one could be before, although he is close. The big difference is though that you can take two, and for considerably cheaper than the 200+/- points mine cost before. The generic GD is also not a bad buy, being similar in stats to the Thirster, albeit wingless. But the bargain basement points cost and the ability to come in off of any champion along with not taking an HQ slot more than makes up for this. Probably the largest selling point though is that neither counts as an IC, therefore they are both scoring units.

The Lord, not something I generally bothered with, but is also now an interesting buy, particularly with a daemon weapon if you are feeling lucky. Othan this and his ability to be marked, there is not much else to him, other than being fearless and coming with an Inv. Sv.

The sorceror has really come into his own though, with a force weapon being added to his repertoire.

The special characters are just sick. I cannot really say much about them as they have too many special rules, etc., that I'd have to go into in depth to do them justice.

2. The Elites present some new and interesting options as well. The two best options are the terminators (dirt cheap) and the dreadnought (also relatively cheap). The terminators in particular can be fielded in units of 3-10.

The Chosen are still attractive having access to many more options and being the only unit to infiltrate.

The Possessed, sadly, are really only going to be good for modellers. Unpredictability of rules combined with (for this codex) a relatively high points cost, and you might as well keep them shelved.

3. The troops are troops. Here you have the remnants of the cult troops, as well as basic marines. The marines in particular have very tight rules in regard to their options. The one good thing is everybody comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon and grenades as standard. You cannot beat that with a stick.

You also have the lesser daemons. While there are occassions when access to cheap Troop choices is a good thing, this is negated by the fact these do not take up a slot. Unless you are playing a mission where you need lots of cheap scoring units, I wouldn't even consider them.

Cult Troops

The cult troops are interesting and all come from the Troop selection. It will still be possible to field an army dedicated to one power, however units that are not Cult can only be given an icon which carries some of the cult abilities, but not all. Purists might be put off by this, but I always played Undivided troops, so I don't really care too much.

One note is that the 1000 Sons with inferno bolts are just sick, however they come with a hefty price tag, mainly due to the cost of the sorceror.

4. In the Fast slots, raptors do well, and they are probably the only real option. Bikes are meh, and Spawn are a waste of space.

The fast choices really let me down. I know a lot of people are ga ga over the raptors, but I just don't see it. They are a third more expensive than a marine, and they give up the bolter. 10 marines in a rhino are cheaper than 10 raptors. [I have played against all jump pack BA armies, and the only conclusion I can come to is jump packs simply allow your models to die faster.]

My advice would be to fill the fast slots last.

5. The heavies are about as you would expect. The vindicator is a nice new wrinkle. Losing indirect fire options though is going to really, really hurt (from the defiler and/or basilisk) the tactical options of the army.

A lot of people have whined about the oblits losing a point of toughness...not that big of a deal. Although the loss of some weapon load outs could be problematic, particularly against horde armies.

The rest of it is about the same, other than losing tank hunter and some changes in points costs for some heavy weapons.

Shooting Issues

I was really concerned here about loss of shooting, and how this would effect the army overall, particularly in light of the new vent of the game to a more shooting oriented rules set.

A few things have somewhat allayed my fears. First, if you are so inclined, you can take 1-2 DP's with potent shooting psychic powers, and hitting on a 2+, they will not miss much. Also, cheap dreads as elites are a good option. Finally, there are the terminators, and their access to combi-weapons, including combi-plasma. This is huge. Deep strike in, wipe a unit out rapid firing plasma, and then it is all close combat from there. Add inferno bolts from 1000 son troops, and you get the picture: MEQ doom.

You also can take 3 squads of chosen, all of whom have access to numerous special weapons.

All in all, an advantage to the new codex.

Loss of skills

I can truly say this one bugged me a lot. And I had come to rely on my tank hunter havocs as somewhat of a crutch. Sad to say, tank hunter is gone. However most skills can still be utilized merely by taking a troop or unit that specializes in a particular skill. Need furious charge, take some berzerkers; need infiltrate, take some chosen.

Customization

This kind of goes hand in hand with loss of the skills, as well as with loss of options and loss of certain troop types and the Legion lists.

I played kind of a mixed Black Legion list to begin with, so this really does not effect me too much, although I can see how certain players would be miffed.

And while the ability to tailor characters has been somewhat curtailed, just the base stuff they all come with, makes this somewhat of a wash.

Playability

This list is infinitely playable. As much or maybe even more so than before. Our shooting is just as good if not better, our close combat options are just as good if not better, and our overall model count is typically going to be 10-20% higher.

The Eldar codex was a great example of what a re-write should be; this one however is close. And hopefully, they can release some of the more popular legions in WD articles similar to the BA's article (lord knows WD could do with a little decent content). I am now more than eagerly awaiting the Daemon Codex...:evilgrin:

[Quick edit: The above title "Better late than never..." was meant to be somewhat of a joke...internet /= inflection very well...:rolleyes:

Plus, I added a little more content and analysis of some areas I skipped over before.]

Thoth62
17-08-2007, 05:08
Let me be the first to say thanks muchly for this. I have to say that I shared much of the same concerns going into this as you did, and as I won't get my copy of the codex, or even see one, for another 2 weeks, I very much appreciate what you've written here.

Lunk
17-08-2007, 06:05
That was a good job. Thanks for the insight. I'm looking forward to getting my codex, too.

Thanks for the review.

Lunk

Zazoo
17-08-2007, 08:54
I have to agree with 90% of what the OP said.

I have a copy of the codex and yea there are a few things that I really dont like.
But there are an equal amount of things that I do like and overall there are some great options in the new Codex.

Griffin
17-08-2007, 09:11
Nice review - no raging against the injustices, clear and concise.

I'm so getting that codex.

athamas
17-08-2007, 09:20
nice review,

much fairer than some we have seen about...

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 14:58
Thank you for all of those kind words.

I can honestly say that it is hard for me to get my mind around a new codex until I have had a chance to sit down and actually write up a couple of army lists.

My first attempt came down to the following:

HQ
Khorne DP with wings
Tzeentch DP with bolt of Tzeentch
Greater Daemon

Elite
8 terminators with 2 combi-plasma and a champion
8 terminators with 2 combi-plasma and a champion
dread with plasma cannon

Troops
5 CSM with melta gun and champion with power weapon
-rhino with havoc launcher
5 CSM with melta gun and champion with power weapon
-rhino with havoc launcher
5 CSM with plasmagun and champion with power weapon
5 CSM with plasmagun and champion with power weapon

Fast
[none]

Heavy
predator with autocannon and 2 lascannon sponsons
predator with autocannon and 2 lascannon sponsons
2 obliterators

This ended up being 56 models carrying 62 wounds and with 5 armored vehicles. And this all came in right at 2,000 points.

I might drop the terminator champions and add two more combi-plasma guns to each squad. I'll have to play a few games and see how this works out.

I also might experiment and take some cult troops.

Wraithbored
17-08-2007, 15:05
I finally had a chance to sit down a perview the impending codex (it is amazing how quickly this one seemed to leak out and soar across the 'Net).

I am interested in it only from a players perspective. I honestly could care less about the art, the background, etc. I only want to know rules, points costs (which you won't get much of here), and most importantly playability.

Needless to say I was originally in the somewhat chagrined camp of serious Chaos players who were/are somewhat discouraged by the rumors and inuendo. However, I do not think we came out nearly as bad as I first feared.

What I was worried about was the loss of shooting, the loss of veteran skills, the loss of customization and the loss of daemons.

But first, a quick analysis of each of the sections:

1. The first thing I was worried about was them fiddling with my HQ options too much. This is where the loss of customization and the loss of the daemons could have hit hard. I liked to field a Khorne DP with a Bloodthirster; an almost unstoppable tandem by all accounts.

Here the new DP is not quite as powerful as what a really tooled up one could be before, although he is close. The big difference is though that you can take two, and for considerably cheaper than the 200+/- points mine cost before. The generic GD is also not a bad buy, being similar in stats to the Thirster, albeit wingless. But the bargain basement points cost and the ability to come in off of any champion along with not taking an HQ slot more than makes up for this.

The Lord, not something I generally bothered with, but is also now an interesting buy, particularly with a daemon weapon if you are feeling lucky.

The sorceror has really come into his own though, with a force weapon being added to his repertoire.

2. The Elites present some new and interesting options as well. The two best options are the terminators (dirt cheap) and the dreadnought (also relatively cheap).

The Chosen are still attractive having access to many more options and being the only unit to infiltrate.

The Possessed, sadly, are really only going to be good for modellers. Unpredictability of rules combined with (for this codex) a relatively high points cost, and you might as well keep them shelved.

3. The troops are troops. Here you have the remnants of the cult troops, as well as basic marines. The marines in particular have very tight rules in regard to their options.

The one good thing is everybody comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon and grenades as standard. You cannot beat that with a stick.

You also have the lesser daemons. While there are occassions when access to cheap Troop choices is a good thing, this is negated by the fact these do not take up a slot. Unless you are playing a mission where you need lots of cheap scoring units, I wouldn't even consider them.

4. In the Fast slots, raptors do well, and they are probably the only real option. Bikes are meh, and Spawn are a waste of space.

The fast choices really let me down. I know a lot of people are ga ga over the raptors, but I just don't see it. They are a third more expensive than a marine, and they give up the bolter. 10 marines in a rhino are cheaper than 10 raptors.

My advice would be to fill the fast slots last.

5. The heavies are about as you would expect. The vindicator is a nice new wrinkle. Losing indirect fire options though is going to really, really hurt the tactical options of the army.

A lot of people have whined about the oblits losing a point of toughness...not that big of a deal. Although the loss of some weapon load outs could be problematic, particularly against horde armies.

Shooting Issues

I was really concerned here about loss of shooting, and how this would effect the army overall, particularly in light of the new vent of the game to a more shooting oriented rules set.

A few things have somewhat allayed my fears. First, if you are so inclined, you can take 1-2 DP's with potent shooting psychic powers, and hitting on a 2+, they will not miss much. Also, cheap dreads as elites are a good option. Finally, there are the terminators, and their access to combi-weapons, including combi-plasma. This is huge. Deep strike in, wipe a unit out rapid firing plasma, and then it is all close combat from there. Add inferno bolts from 1000 son troops, and you get the picture: MEQ doom.

All in all, this is a wash, possibly even a slight advantage to the new codex.

Loss of skills

I can truly say this one bugged me a lot. And I had come to rely on my tank hunter havocs as somewhat of a crutch. Sad to say, tank hunter is gone. However most skills can still be utilized merely by taking a troop or unit that specializes in a particular skill. Need furious charge, take some berzerkers; need infiltrate, take some chosen.

Customization

This kind of goes hand in hand with loss of the skills, as well as with loss of options and loss of certain troop types and the Legion lists.

I played kind of a mixed Black Legion list to begin with, so this really does not effect me too much, although I can see how certain players would be miffed.

And while the ability to tailor characters has been somewhat curtailed, just the base stuff they all come with, makes this somewhat of a wash.

Playability

This list is infinitely playable. As much or maybe even more so than before. Our shooting is just as good if not better, our close combat options are just as good if not better, and our overall model count is typically going to be 10-20% higher.

The Eldar codex was a great example of what a re-write should be; this one however is close. And hopefully, they can release some of the more popular legions in WD articles similar to the BA's article (lord knows WD could do with a little decent content). I am now more than eagerly awaiting the Daemon Codex...:evilgrin:
Isn't this technically a violation of GW IP? Not be a wet blanket but are posts like this allowed?

Reticent
17-08-2007, 15:16
Isn't this technically a violation of GW IP? Not be a wet blanket but are posts like this allowed?

The copy he read most definitely was; the review itself isn't.

Wraithbored
17-08-2007, 15:19
The copy he read most definitely was; the review itself isn't.

Ah ok then. But I heard some posters got suspended for discusing the copies of the codex gotten over the internet (ie filesharing). That's why I asked.

dcikgyurt
17-08-2007, 15:23
It good to see somebody else who has read the codex and happens to agree with me. We lost customisation of our characters for a huge variety of unit choices. Raptors use to be prohibitively expensive, now they are a valid choice.We can still field the gunline or close combat armies, but now we have a chance of them beating their equivalents (like tau and orks respectively).

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 15:26
I never said I saw or obtained a copy via filesharing? (I never stated where I saw it...)

Besides, I posted no stats. I did not post any links. I did not upload any scanned pages, etc. This is what the majority of the people who got in trouble for posting this stuff got in trouble for (I ought to know as I can read the reports and the actions taken).

I just felt with all of the teeth gnashing out there, that people might like to see a fair and objective general review.

Wraithbored
17-08-2007, 15:35
I never said I saw or obtained a copy via filesharing? (I never stated where I saw it...)

Besides, I posted no stats. I did not post any links. I did not upload any scanned pages, etc. This is what the majority of the people who got in trouble for posting this stuff got in trouble for (I ought to know as I can read the reports and the actions taken).

I just felt with all of the teeth gnashing out there, that people might like to see a fair and objective general review.
Oh, just assumed you did mentioning that there is a copy on the internet in the first sentence. I work for the police and my mind tends to work that way, my appologies if I put you in a bad light in any way.

Dicey
17-08-2007, 15:48
Eldanar, thanks for a gamers review. I found it insightful and agree the bolter, b pistol and hand weapon rock. I think chaos will play more like the fluff now but I dont see this as a weekness. Chaos will remain one of the more competitive lists. wait I am having a vision - hundreds of basilisks on ebay painted bolt gun metal with yellow and blcak chevrons! :evilgrin:

I have seen the codex in my GW store, so you can read honestly now but cant own it

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 15:48
Oh, just assumed you did mentioning that there is a copy on the internet in the first sentence. I work for the police and my mind tends to work that way, my appologies if I put you in a bad light in any way.

Nah...just more of a general statement as to how many people seem to have already had a chance to see this and as early as they have...

MrInsomniac
17-08-2007, 15:55
Thanks very much for that Eldanar. I was always optimistic about the new codex and It's nice to be able to read a review that shows it isn't all doom and gloom like others suspected.

Greatoliver
17-08-2007, 15:59
...I work for the police...

That made me laugh! Reading that part and looking at your avatar... I imagined him going around, dressed like that and going "Phe-nar!"

;)

BTT: Nice review Eldanar - from what I know, I agree with all you've said there.

Wraithbored
17-08-2007, 16:03
That made me laugh! Reading that part and looking at your avatar... I imagined him going around, dressed like that and going "Phe-nar!"

;)heh at work i'm pretty stern and humourless that's why I overcompensate in my free time. :D

studderigdave
17-08-2007, 16:43
the new codex is growing on me. im still bitter about losing demonic mutation on my vehicles, but i think if it was kept in it would be like 50 points or something totally absurd like that. against all given advice im staying deathguard. im not mixing any units, im adding a vindicator, a termie sorcerer, more DG and some spawn, but nothing else. i will be testing out my 2k build with the new rules hopefully today, ill make a report on it when im done.

Crube
17-08-2007, 16:49
Based on this review, I'm looing forward to seeing some lists in posted in the Army lists section of Warseer soon.

It's always things like that which get me more excited, although it would have to be something special to get me back to 40K.

How feasible are things like armies dedicated to 1 god nowadays?

Ravenous
17-08-2007, 16:54
Not to be picky but 10 marines with a rhino(with extra armour) is the exact same point cost as 10 raptors.

And for those who havent read the codex, just to give you an idea of just how cheap termies got.

7 of them are just 10 points more then the 2 options stated above.

Crube
17-08-2007, 16:59
7 of them are just 10 points more then the 2 options stated above.

Seriously :eek:


That's plus equipment I take it?

Ravenous
17-08-2007, 17:09
Seriously :eek:


That's plus equipment I take it?

Yes
They come with combi bolters and power weapons.

Commissar Bob
17-08-2007, 17:35
The fact that termies now have option to combiplasma is very cool, but it raises a question.
I was just looking at my new White Dwarf (came yesterday) and in it they show painted copies of every piece on the chaos termies sprue. But there are no combiplasma arms there. :confused:That seems to go against GW's recent policy of all options having models for them. So I was wondering if they are going to release a metal Chaos termie with a combiplasma or something similar?

Commissar Bob

Ravenous
17-08-2007, 17:41
Doubtful,

Its easy enough to model though. All the plastic chaos marine kits come with plasmaguns and pistols, some simple hack/slashing with a touch of glue and you have yourself a combi plasma.

Cry of the Wind
17-08-2007, 17:45
Nice to see a couple of reviews here that are objective. Another reminder of why I don't linger very long in the Dakka forums. Having read several reviews and had a chance to look at the codex myself I'd say it's a step in the right direction. I don't agree with the focus on renagades but it is at least nice to have some info on them. I think I'll wait to see how the daemonica codex interacts with this one before making my own call of it being a good or bad codex.

Baaltharus
17-08-2007, 18:03
It seems like the combi-plasma issue is an oversight, chaos has never had combi plasmas before now and the fact that they are so cheap for terminators definitely seems to suggest this wasn't really well considered (if at all).

Overall the Codex is AMAZING for chaos players as a great many units, especially the core in the form of Chaos Space Marines, Princes, Terminators and other units like greater daemons are painfully undercosted.

Many other options like psychic powers are also no brainers with the effects they provide massively outweighing the powers points cost.

For those who don't play chaos and who have no plans of doing so in the future you'll almost certainly feel your being shafted by this new codex. This is especially true for DA and BA players who near enough pay the exact same points for their opposite numbers (SM vs CSM, Havocs vs Devastors, Princes vs Commanders, etc) but who are noticably inferior to their chaos counterparts.

I would say the codex is good for rules (by and large) but leaves alot to be desired in terms of points costs for units. It seems Gav Thorpe has created another monstrosity which GW has failed to check and bring in line.

Al.

TheDarkArg
17-08-2007, 18:19
Let me add my voice the chours of thanks for posting a simple and too the point review of the upcoming codex. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive and am glad to hear a non-rant based commentary on the general feel of the new rule set.

Captain Micha
17-08-2007, 18:21
How would you say they fall in power wise, to say.. Bts?

L192837465
17-08-2007, 18:29
Chaos 4th edition review
By L192837465

Forward: I am an avid chaos player. I like the new codex, but I’m really doing my best to keep this unbiased. As the fluff part was already covered, I’ll skip right to the ruleset and review each unit and rate on a scale of 1-10 (1 = crap 10 = must take)

Also, all points are +/- 5 so I don’t get in trouble for points values. If this is still wrong, PM me and I’ll edit all of em out (there shouldn’t be many, mainly on the special dudes)

Characters:

Abbadon: omg. He’s ridiculous. Possibility of 10 attacks (average being around 7) at i6 ws7 and s8? Holy crap that’s good! If you like characters, he’s a must have, but since he’s a special dude, I’m gonna give him a 8/10. He’s a chunk of points, and the terminator retinue can cost even more.

Ahriman: awesome. Force weapon, 3 psychic powers a turn, and a 4+ invul save. Not shabby. Lots of points, but if you wanna really rape someone with powers, he’s your man. Personally, he’s a few points more than he should be, but I’ll still give him a 6/10.

Lucious: nice ws, decent number of attacks, and armour that attacks when he makes a save against you. Not shabby! And at I6, how can you go wrong? A stack of wargear and an invulnerable save, plus the doom siren make him pretty nasty to be dealt with. He also knows lash for free. 7/10

Kharn: ws 7, bs5 with 5 attacks hitting on 2s with a 5+ invul save to boot. Nice! Stock with f-charge and only ~*** points (possibly cheaper than a chaos lord) and pretty much a killing machine! Cream for the Khorne God! 7/10

Huron Blackheart: great character from ye olden days! Glad to have him back! Come with Warptime and his powerfist with a heavy flamer in it? Yeowch! And a nice statline to go with it, although I don’t get BS5 when he doesn’t have a gun. Oh well, its still nice! And for ~*** points, he’s awesome! 7/10

Typhus: oh man what a beast he is. At ~*** points he comes with a +d6A force weapon daemon blade that always wounds on a 4+ or better. Hawt? And in terminator armour with wind of chaos and nurgles rot psychic powers on ld 10, he is a single-handed army killer. If used right he can wreck havoc. 8/10

Fabius Bile: I’ve never been a fan of Fabius, and this codex doesn’t change that. He’s got some nice rules, but is almost as expensive as huron and with no invul save either. Not a fan, as they could have made him pretty cool. 4/10

Oh well
Downside: where’s Cypher?
HQ:

Daemon Prince: ˝ a page of upgrades, amazing stat line (t6 with Nurgle!) and options for sorcerous powers, and for only a 100pts and some change! No daemon weapons or any gun at all, plus only 3+ armour and only wings is kind of lame, but bye bye speed princes! 7/10

Chaos Lord: again, ˝ page of upgrades and any weapon you could want. Pretty awesome. Daemon weapons are awesome, and for just shy of 100 points base, he can make for a great lord. Sadly, no more super customization, but makes for an all around better guy. 3a base at ws6 = he’s hitting almost anything on 3s. I like. 8/10

Chaos Sorcerer: amazing list of powers to take (including the fabled Lash) and a force weapon stock for 1 double 0 points. Hot. And can take termy armour? Yeah baby! 8/10



Elites:

Chosen: options for 5 special weapons? With infiltrate stock at less than ** points a pop? Nice! Great unit, and very versatile. 7/10

Terminators: unit strength 3 minimum, much cheaper, option for all of them to be upgraded to champions, and lots of weapon options to boot, plus able to give a banner. Awesome! 8/10

Possessed: overpriced, completely random, and rhino or scout is useless if you give them a rhino. On a lucky roll you get rending though? 1/10

Dreadnought: with twin las its almost as expenive as a defiler… and it has a battle cannon! Terrible cost, they made the frenzy list suck, and only 4 attacks maximum. Depressing. And I used to love my FW dread… 2/10


Troops:

Chaos Space Marines: holy crap. GW knows how to make marines ROCK THE KASBAH. Bp, ccw, bolter, frag and crack grenades, bannerable, and can still take 2 special weapons at 10 strong, 20 man unit max, rhinoable, and the AC can still get kitted out. All for the same price as a 3.5th ed chaos marine with undivided. Absolutely amazing. I agree with GWs policy of starting to make troop toted heavy weapons a rarity (hense the 10 marines) but for some people that’s a downside, especially since the HS choices are now heavily constested. I’m still giving them a 10/10 for being total badasses.

Rhino: at ** points and upgradable still, its amazing. You’ll see a lot more rhino walls forthcoming. 8/10
Plague Marines: t5, upgradable, and kitted like a CSM with Feel No Pain and Blight Grenades. Awesome. Simply awesome. You’ll see a lot of Nurgle armies in the future. Especially since their banner gives +1t (t6 bikers anyone?) 8/10

Noise Marines: excellent take on NM. Doomsirens now an AP3 heavy flamer, blastmaster fires a s8 ap3 blast marker, and noise weapons are still phenomenal. Excellent. I can see how the blastmaster is overcosted at ** points, but kill 8 marines with lash/BM combo and say its not worth the points. Still, 7/10 for that (I’d have given them an 8)

Khorn Berzerkers: nothing fancy. Ws5, with furious charge is good, making them nasty combat troops, but no fun rules. Sad. 5/10

Thousand Sons: slow, 4+ invuls, and ap3 bolters in 20 strong squads. Whats not to love? Every marine players nightmare. Or necron… hell, ok, everyones nightmare army. Expensive though. 10/10 for the idea, but 7/10 for execution.


Fast attack

Bikers: as said, they’re pretty much loyalist biker -1 attack and + a couple special weapons. Lame. Markable though. 5/10

Raptors: you’ll see a lot more of these in the future. Cheap, basically loyalist assault troops, but we can mark em. I like the idea they can deepstrike too. I’m sure we’ll be seing a lot of bomb armies where 2/3 the army deep strikes. 6/10

Spawn: lame. No armour save (but t5 and s5 with 3 wounds). It might be good against guard for drawing fire away from your units due to their speed, but against nids that’s just a nitrous boost. And since they have to charge the closest enemy unit, they can be baited pretty nastily. It has its uses, but they’re few and far between. 3/10

Heavy Support

Note: this is a very crowded section of the book. It has a ton of entries. Strange…

Havocs: I love me my havocs. Ability to be marked anything and carry a terrifyingly large arsenal of weapons, they are a mainstake in a lot of armies. You can have 4 plasma guns and a combi-plasma in one unit. Combined with Chosen makes a nasty combo. Good range support and cheap. Bolt pistol and ccw included though, with is nice! 7/10

Oblits: expensive, but SO worth it. Now with Plasma cannons and multimeltas, their death range improved. Again, expensive, but 2 wounds with termie armour is nice. 8/10

Predator: I’ve never liked the idea of a predator. Why is it a mobile firing platform can only carry a single autocannon on the turret? A single marine can carry the same weapon, yet the predator can mount a twin las? Eh? But they’re nice for their points and have their uses. A few upgrades, but all in all the same. 5/10

Vindicator: mixed uses. 13 front armour makes it tough to kill, but its close range and doesn’t support cc. can be deamonically possessed though, so it can fire until its dead. Which rocks. 4/10

Defiler: ws3, up to 5 attacks, and a battle cannon for *** points. Whats not to love? Mobile firing platform and good cc support unit make for a good unit. 2 or even 3 of these in an army won’t be a suprising sight. 7/10

Land Raider: ** points cheaper than a loyalist raider, yet still not worth taking. Number of upgrades including Deamonic Possession mean its gonna be shooting a lot.




Others:

summoned greater deamon: awesome for its points. It summons like a deamon, and is awesome in cc, and to boot, doesn’t take up an HQ slot! Hell yes! Ws 8 s6 t6 and 4 wounds *** points even. Hawt. Oh, and a 4+ invul! 9/10

Lesser Deamons: they have their uses, but again, few and far between. Not a terribly good statline, but its mediocre for 13 points. They can charge after deepstriking, which is always a bonus. 4/10


All in all, the rules portion of the book is amazing. Chaos is now going to rape a lot, but it’ll be more tactical. Marked units will be everywhere.

Captain Micha
17-08-2007, 18:48
ouch..... just ouch *L* tell me this stuff is expensive!

NotElite
17-08-2007, 18:50
I actually think the raptors are a better option than the rhino squads, but that is how I roll. YMMV.

I wish the Bikes were so incredibly overcosted compared to the raptors. There really is no contest in the fast attack slot. Spawn are really only an option for fluff or if you have the spare points to fill in.

The rest of the review is pretty much dead-on.

The really short version (All Fluff Considerations aside):
CSMs are one of the better troops slots in the game right now, however, most upgrades have been severely limited and/or cost more.

Although it is definitely better than Dark Angels for flex and power, the Codex is weaker across the board than it's predecessor, which was probably warranted. The loss of all veteran skills hurts most players significantly, and to me, was the most contentious nerf. The removal of useful demons had better be rectified next year in Codex: Demons

There are some bright spots (Chosen, Raptors, Vindicators, CSMs) and one sadly broken addition (Lash).

So, yes, you can compete, especially once they nerf Codex: Space Marines next year. Eldar and Tyranids will always be a problem going forward since their Codexes are NOT slated for a Redux-nerf though...

BrainFireBob
17-08-2007, 18:57
Chaos always is. They're more Mariney Marines in that regard, always have been. Buying options adds up.

Baaltharus
17-08-2007, 19:05
ouch..... just ouch *L* tell me this stuff is expensive!

Nope, not nearly as much as they should be. To any reasonable person a CSM as they exist in the codex should cost more (around the 18pts mark IMO), not cost the same as a normal SM (but having more attacks for next to nothing).

I'm feel really quite strongly about this new codex when I say that this version is OVERALL more powerful than the last one.

L192837465 said this Codex would create more tactical games but I don't think this is true at all. Cheap powers like 'the lash' can kill any sort of tactical game hands down and its very easy to create a gun line now with chaos who just have to sit and shoot. You barely even have to spend any points on counter attack units as everyones armed to the teeth with close combat weapons (even the bloody havocs!) anyway. This means you can just spam out on a ranged army without too much fear of being overrun in cc.

The whole codex needs to be looked at again and proper points costs allocated. As it sits just now it provides chaos players with a much better army than the loyalist one.

Al.

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 19:13
You all are going to make me put my moderator hat on...

Since it is not officially released yet, please refrain from posting points costs.

L192837465
17-08-2007, 19:27
eldanar, if i went too far with my post, gimme a pm.

eveyone else: yes, in my personal opinion, Lash is singlehandedly the most broken special rule/item/power in the entire game. i'd rather fight unkillable falcons.

if GW doesn't fix that with a faq allowing ou to make a ld check (even at -2 would be acceptable) my Fallen army is going to mysteriously move to DA and i'll have 2 dudes with hoods. that means that guy just wasted 400 points and i wasted about the same for 4 guys who now all cancell each other out.

GW: if you're reading this PLEASE! PLEEAAASSEEE faq that ability! again, a -2 ld to oppose would be fine, or 12" range, or make the ability 600 points. PLEASE START PLAYTESTING PSYCHIC POWERS, DANMIT!

Democratus
17-08-2007, 19:28
I think it is important - in the interest of balance - to note that the OP review was written from the point of view of a Black Legion player. The Codex is indeed excellent for anyone who wants to be able to mix and match in the manner traditional for that force.

I do feel, however, that the Cult armies did get a bit of a boot to the head. I would forgive all if only the cult Icons gave 'Fearless' to the troops bearing them. As things are, though, the point cost for an Icon of Nurgle is simply too much for the +1T that it gives. In the new system, troops with an Icon of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, etc. will actually run away more often than troops with the 'Undivided' Icon. Just seems silly to me that troops dedicated to a single God are less brave than those who have majored in 'Undecided'.

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 20:02
@L: you are fine...I took care of it...:evilgrin:

@Democratus: You are correct in that I play Black Legion and so probably feel the pinch less than other Legions.

However, as a Nurgle player you still have access to plague marines as troops...and they are not too shabby. Throw in a dread, some mucked up oblits, a GD and a prince or two and nothing has really changed, other than the loss of daemons and nurglings. You have lost a few things but you have also gained access to a few as well.

You can't infiltrate your army, as many Nurgle players like to do. But just as I think my tank hunter havocs were a crutch I had come to rely on a little too much, heavily infiltrating armies were as well.

Granted, you cannot play a pure cult list, but I have a feeling that will be rectified by a WD article...

Vegeta365
17-08-2007, 20:08
I agree with a lot of youre opinions on the codex, however one thing in particular stands out to me.

Vindicator 4/10? Can you not appreciate how good this tank can be to a competitive chaos player against a variety of opponents? Yes oblits are better for the lash combo vs marines, but what about nid swarm? If you don't know what you are playing I would say having these is very handy indeed.

Khorne Berzerkers 5/10? I would say this is very low. They are amazing in combat, and it is not too difficult to get them there. Yes they have lost a lot of rules, but that has made them better imo. They have gained a lot too and do what you would expect.

Dreadnought 2/10? It's not fantastic, but it's not that bad either. Just betterr options available.

Poseesed 1/10? This is ridiculous. From a competitive point of view, yes they are too random. But they are certainly very playable, and if used the right way can get the job done! There are many ways too use them aswell. A wacky idea would be 15 with the mark of Tzeentch? Yes expensive, but think about what it could do!

So I guess in my opinion the codex is even harder than you think. Guess thats a concern for all other armies.

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 20:50
Those are not my rankings...;)

Although on a 10 point scale, I'd give the entire codex an 8 or 8.5 (Eldar being a 9 or 9.5).

If I ranked everything on a 10 point scale, it would be as follows:

DP 8
GD 9
Lord 9
Sorceror 9
Chosen 7
Dread 7
Terminators 10
Possessed 5
CSMs 7
Berzerkers 7
1000 Sons 10
Noise Marines 7
Plague Marines 8
Lesser Daemons 2
Raptors 6
Bikers 5
Spawn 4
LR 7
Predator 7
Defiler 6
Vindicator 8
Obliterators 8
Havocs 8

Thoth62
17-08-2007, 21:06
Overall then, you have a very positive outlook on the new codex?

Democratus
17-08-2007, 21:22
While the question wasn't directed at me, I'll answer it. :)

I think it is a good codex. It fits the general power levels and organization required for balanced tournament play. There are a few kinks that need to be worked out - but nothing that an FAQ can't resolve. This codex will be even better once the current Space Marine codex has also been brought into line with the new trend.

L192837465
17-08-2007, 21:23
i guess i should explain. death guard are a few points more than khorn berzerkers. what do they get? blight grenades, feel no pain, and i3.

khorn berzerkers? ws5 and furious charge.

yeah, its good, dont get me wrong. but compared to the other legions they got the short end of the stick in comparrison to special rules.

hell, they're barely cheaper than a thousand son with s&p, sp3 bolters and a 4+ ward!

the the vindicator is good as well, but a defiler is better in every aspect except for front armour, and its even +1 armour on the side.

the dread: yes, i gave it such a terrible score because it should be playable, not a points sink. with one twin linked weapon and a ccw its not good at anything, but does nothing.

Possessed: hey, if you can make em work, more power to ya. 26 points a piece even bannered, is not worth it. put em in a rhino? ok, go for it. they get scout? your points are wasted for s5 marines. they're almost as much as a terminator and not NEAR as good.

just defending my points, i'm not meaning to flame or troll here.

Crube
17-08-2007, 21:25
I think this reflects the general consensus others have posted.

Codexes (codicies?) are now being made a bit tighter, for tourney type play, and expansions like Apocalypse are catering for the fluff/fun gamer.

I'm getting more interested by the Chaos codex the more I read...My wallet hates me....

Eldanar
17-08-2007, 21:27
Overall then, you have a very positive outlook on the new codex?

It is a good codex and it is very competitive.





the dread: yes, i gave it such a terrible score because it should be playable, not a points sink. with one twin linked weapon and a ccw its not good at anything, but does nothing.



The twin lascannon option is probably the worst load out for the dred. It can be the same cost with a plasma cannon, or even cheaper with a multi-melta, than an imperial dread. For this cheap cost alone, it is a great option for players that want to concentrate their points in other sections of the FOA. It also is going to be a good buy for people that want to run the Chaos "godzilla" list.

7thOffensive
17-08-2007, 21:38
I looked through it last night and they spent a lot of time on the red corsairs.

which i thought was odd.

mightygnoblar
17-08-2007, 21:45
i guess i should explain. death guard are a few points more than khorn berzerkers. what do they get? blight grenades, feel no pain, and i3.

khorn berzerkers? ws5 and furious charge.

yeah, its good, dont get me wrong. but compared to the other legions they got the short end of the stick in comparrison to special rules.

hell, they're barely cheaper than a thousand son with s&p, sp3 bolters and a 4+ ward!

the the vindicator is good as well, but a defiler is better in every aspect except for front armour, and its even +1 armour on the side.

the dread: yes, i gave it such a terrible score because it should be playable, not a points sink. with one twin linked weapon and a ccw its not good at anything, but does nothing.

Possessed: hey, if you can make em work, more power to ya. 26 points a piece even bannered, is not worth it. put em in a rhino? ok, go for it. they get scout? your points are wasted for s5 marines. they're almost as much as a terminator and not NEAR as good.

just defending my points, i'm not meaning to flame or troll here.

i really do think thats you are underestimating the khorne berserkers here, they may not have the special rules that other cults have but what they do have makes them simple but very effective at what they do, they are ws5, and with furious charge s5 I5 not to mention the exta attack, lots of armies would sell there soles to chaos for a unit like that, they also lost there downside of being so unpredictable

BDJV
17-08-2007, 21:52
Overall I think the new codex has a much cleaner list and will be a lot less confusing. I'd give it a solid 8 out of 10 based on everything that's been said.

At this point, I don't see myself using any Dreadnoughts unless they are duel CCW wielding armored maniacs.

L192837465
17-08-2007, 21:56
mightygnoblar - fair enough, i'll give you that. i'll have to see them in game though.

my biggest grief is why oh why can a predator tote a twin las but only a autocannon. a dude can carry an autocannon, but only one damn lascannon! i want twin autocannons on predators! hell, the DREAD can carry one for christs sake!

Baaltharus
17-08-2007, 22:40
I wouldn't say the codex is particularly well balanced, its definetly more powerful than the DA or BA codex. The prices for some units need fixed and powers like 'lash' need revisiting. The rules are ok but the points associated with them are out by a big margin in many cases.

Al.

L192837465
17-08-2007, 22:50
siren? you mean lash? or are you looking at a 3.5 codex?

carmachu
17-08-2007, 23:04
The only problem with it is its a renegade chaos book, rather than a choas codex....which is too bad.

Alpharius
17-08-2007, 23:12
The Eldar codex was a great example of what a re-write should be; this one however is close. And hopefully, they can release some of the more popular legions in WD articles similar to the BA's article (lord knows WD could do with a little decent content). I am now more than eagerly awaiting the Daemon Codex...:evilgrin:

..and if they DON'T "release some of the more popular legions in WD articles similar to the BA's article (lord knows WD could do with a little decent content)", well, let's just say I will continue to be very unhappy with the "New Deal" from GW.

dcikgyurt
17-08-2007, 23:48
Based on this review, I'm looing forward to seeing some lists in posted in the Army lists section of Warseer soon.

It's always things like that which get me more excited, although it would have to be something special to get me back to 40K.

How feasible are things like armies dedicated to 1 god nowadays?

Please don't start that arguement up again. Yes they are feasible, but many of the former cult players are going to say that it can't be done as you can only get marks on cult troops and that every other unit has to take an Icon, which apparently means they don't follow that god, despite getting his/it's blessing.

CommisarMolotov
18-08-2007, 00:22
Anyone else find it odd that a Chaos Rhino can have Daemonic Possession (which makes it pretty darned useless, IMO) but a Chaos Dreadnought cannot?

dcikgyurt
18-08-2007, 00:27
Anyone else find it odd that a Chaos Rhino can have Daemonic Possession (which makes it pretty darned useless, IMO) but a Chaos Dreadnought cannot?

Daemonic possession no longer prevents you putting troops in a rhino, and even if it did, you can still use it as mobile scenery.

onnotangu
18-08-2007, 00:56
silly question but will the defiler still get it's options for autocannon or flamer? I picked up a spare one and would rather like to use it in a chaos army

Eldanar
18-08-2007, 01:22
The defiler is pretty much the same option-wise, it merely loses indirect fire.

Starchild
18-08-2007, 01:39
Nope, not nearly as much as they should be. To any reasonable person a CSM as they exist in the codex should cost more (around the 18pts mark IMO), not cost the same as a normal SM (but having more attacks for next to nothing).Ah, but you're forgetting that loyalist Chapters benefit from the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule. So the points values in the new Chaos 'dex should be about right. Chaos Marines may be armed to the teeth, but loyalist Marines have far better willpower and discipline.

Vineas
18-08-2007, 01:58
Trust me on the Berserker issue. I've played 2 games with and against them and they are just sick now. They are a little underpowered against termies now but you do end up on average hitting more often and wounding more often and going first (if you get a charge off), against anything not in TDA they slap that unit around like a red-headed stepchild.

They are ungodly and 6 squads of 10 (or 8) in Rhinos would be a real *female dog* to get rid of

Alpharius
18-08-2007, 02:15
The defiler is pretty much the same option-wise, it merely loses indirect fire.

Oh, is that all it loses? :rolleyes:

Mind you, I hate the things and never used them (though the Brass Scorpion conversion looks ace!), but I think some past fans of them might be more than a little upset at that loss...

BDJV
18-08-2007, 03:19
Trust me on the Berserker issue. I've played 2 games with and against them and they are just sick now. They are a little underpowered against termies now but you do end up on average hitting more often and wounding more often and going first (if you get a charge off), against anything not in TDA they slap that unit around like a red-headed stepchild.

They are ungodly and 6 squads of 10 (or 8) in Rhinos would be a real *female dog* to get rid of

I've used Zerkers too and I've ditched my champs Fist for a Power weapon. On the Charge he has the potential to rip Termie squads apart.

Eldanar
18-08-2007, 03:28
Oh, is that all it loses? :rolleyes:

Mind you, I hate the things and never used them (though the Brass Scorpion conversion looks ace!), but I think some past fans of them might be more than a little upset at that loss...


If you go back to my original analysis, you will see this is one of the major flaws of the list.

I never liked fielding them to begin with because I think they are terrible models, as well as expensive points wise. However, I had to start taking one just to deal with the Tau (as well as other armies that liked to hide). Even if it never did anything, it at least made my opponent set up wide apart, which played into my overall strategy.

I do not see any alternative for Chaos now to deal with those pesky JSJ type units, other than to pin my hopes on deepstriking terminators with combi-plasma coming in and whiping those types of things out.

Alpharius
18-08-2007, 03:34
If you go back to my original analysis, you will see this is one of the major flaws of the list.

I never liked fielding them to begin with because I think they are terrible models, as well as expensive points wise. However, I had to start taking one just to deal with the Tau (as well as other armies that liked to hide). Even if it never did anything, it at least made my opponent set up wide apart, which played into my overall strategy.

I do not see any alternative for Chaos now to deal with those pesky JSJ type units, other than to pin my hopes on deepstriking terminators with combi-plasma coming in and whiping those types of things out.

Fair enough!

Though I've often found that pinning my hopes on deepstriking units often means that, though they'll eliminate "A", then will in turn be eliminated by "B", usually resulting in a points loss imbalance for me!

Especially against Eldar...

Eldanar
18-08-2007, 07:05
I agree with you in that I have never been a big fan of deepstrike. Unfortunately, with no daemon bomb and with no indirect fire, that is really all that is left...

Baaltharus
18-08-2007, 11:49
Ah, but you're forgetting that loyalist Chapters benefit from the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule. So the points values in the new Chaos 'dex should be about right. Chaos Marines may be armed to the teeth, but loyalist Marines have far better willpower and discipline.

I'm not forgetting this at all, CSM units usually have ld 10 so it balances out ATSKNF even before adding on their additional armaments. A CSM is a much better buy than a SM. I've gone over the comparrisons in other threads (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-tactics/97097-new-chaos-codex-tips-tricks-16.html.) CSM are the best basic troop choice in the game. The points costs for these units are out by a decent margin.

Al.

Eldanar
18-08-2007, 16:00
A little OT, Baaltharus, but I do not think I can agree with you for the simple reason marines can rally under half. Add to this the leadership issue is mitigated by taking a commander.

And now, they are infinitely more cusomizable than CSM's.

Sarevok
18-08-2007, 17:45
I'd say CSM are better than SM, but they lack combat squads and need 10 guys for a heavy weapon. Marines are more flexible in that regard.

I would have costed them a tad higher but changed that rule probably.

Baaltharus
18-08-2007, 17:51
Space Marines can rally under half strength but they are more likely to run away in the first place. Under most circumstances a CSM won't run unless they are getting their heads kicked in in close combat. A commander costs the same points as a daemon prince (which is far more powerful) and for this all you get is the same ld as most CSM squads.

Further more I was refering to the redux space marines (DA & BA)who are some of the most inflexable as any units in 40k and who CSM have so many more options than. The redux SM also need 10 men to get a heavy weapon.

I feel the points I've presented are not OT and remain perfectly valid.

Al.

Eldanar
18-08-2007, 19:01
OT = off topic

This thread wass created to be a discussion of the new CSM codex, not a comparison to marines or any other army.

Baaltharus
18-08-2007, 19:09
Ahhh, apologies lol, I thought you were saying Over the Top.

The fact that I feel (along with the great majority of those I've discussed it with) that units such as Havocs, chaos space marines, daemon princes, greater daemons, etc are undercosted. I think this is a reasonable point for discussion regarding Codex Chaos.

Al.

crimslain
19-08-2007, 03:26
I was reading through the codex from my store, and I really think its rather bah without any theme. Kinda feels like the old vanilla ultramarines, except, it stands with the entire army, not just a chapter. Ya my 10 yearold wouldnt have a problem playing it now. Ive played for a very long time, I really cant believe they've dismissed so many possiblities. I know they made most everything cheaper, but at the cost of making it oh so bland. I dont think it was worth it. I mean hell, they didnt even give anyone the option of taking a teleport homer. I just dont like the idea of saying, there are no more original Lord commanders of any chaos pre-heresy traitor legion. Ya I can give them a mark, but thats it, no wargear of any kind that says im a World-Eaters veteran of 10,000 years, ofh except for my +1 attack from the mark of Khorne, or an EC lord, I just a little faster than most, but I cant touch the sonic weapons of my troops, as if he woudlnt know how to use it. I guess thats my biggest complaint, if anyone should get "original" traitor wargear, shouldnt it be the commander and not just the troops.?

SwordJon
19-08-2007, 04:07
I mean hell, they didnt even give anyone the option of taking a teleport homer.

I thought the squad icons now functioned like teleport homers for termies and demons?

Eldanar
19-08-2007, 04:23
I thought the squad icons now functioned like teleport homers for termies and demons?

They do.


Ahhh, apologies lol, I thought you were saying Over the Top.

The fact that I feel (along with the great majority of those I've discussed it with) that units such as Havocs, chaos space marines, daemon princes, greater daemons, etc are undercosted. I think this is a reasonable point for discussion regarding Codex Chaos.

Al.

Points costs are always an issue of discussion. Unfortunately, this is not allowed currently in regard to this codex. And too, 95% of the people reading this thread would not have a point of reference.

I know a little bit about how GW playtests and how they arrive at the points costs they get. I would imagine at least in regard to the HQ choices, they receive a discount due to the fact that almost all of the options available before are now gone. Aside from marks and psychic powers, there are very few choices to be made when designing a character.

As for the cost of CSMs, havocs, etc., you have to start with the assumption that the extra stuff they got (bolter, bolt pistol, CCW, grenades) were all adequately pointed before. Since almost no one I know ever used krak or frag grenades, except as an afterthought, then I would argue they were not adequately pointed versus their utility before. Add to this the severe restrictions on unit upgrades, as well as the somewhat diminishing returns for taking icons, etc., and I can see their points cost being reasonable. Few Chaos players field units over 10 models, and now they can go to 20; obviously, with set points costs for icons, they are better with large units; but large units are both unwieldy, redundant, and very pricey for the typical game of 1,500-2,000 points. Whereas a small unit (5-8, which is the typical unit size) with an icon pays a premium for that icon.

A GD is cheap. But there are also a lot more risks involved with its use now. Lets say he decides not to come in until turn 5, and by that time the only character you have left is your 200 point lord in terminator armor? The last thing you want is for the GD to possess him...but that is what is going to happen. Or lets say you have no champions left, or merely none currently on the board, so now not only is your GD not coming in, but you are giving up full vp's for him. He also lost flight and access to psychic powers, which is going to seriously curtail his reach, AND all daemons no longer get to move when they are summoned in (although they may still assault). Come in at the wrong time or if the GD is forced to come in on a champion far away, and your GD is more than likely out of the fight for a while. So with slightly fewer abilities, less maneuverability, and potentially higher risk when summoning, I can see why he is pointed where he is.

The proof though is on the table top, and I both watched and played against a new codex Chaos list today. The guy playing Chaos is a former GT winner and knows a little bit about what he is about (and he even had the dreaded Lash power, on no less than 2 daemon princes) . He barely eked out a draw versus a Blood Angels army and he got slaughtered by my all-foot Eldar army.

There is a learning curve with any new codex, and while there are some nice things in the book, there are some very obvious (and possibly deliberate) flaws and weaknesses in the list. With that said, I think the army is very playable as well as competitive against every other army, but it does not play quite exactly like the Chaos armies of before...:eyebrows:

Zerosoul
19-08-2007, 06:30
I agree with you in that I have never been a big fan of deepstrike. Unfortunately, with no daemon bomb and with no indirect fire, that is really all that is left...

Given the sheer amount of teleport homers that Chaos can end up with, this is not a bad thing. And unlike other homers, theirs work while the unit is in a transport.

This is the use of Raptors and Bikes, IMO. You can get them almost anywhere necessary, and then you can drop your Terminators in. A unit of Bikes with a Nurgle or Tzeentch icon, while appalingly expensive, is also very very hard to kill, and even harder to kill before they do what they need to do, which is drop in a unit of Terminators.

SwordJon
19-08-2007, 07:07
A unit of Bikes with a Nurgle or Tzeentch icon, while appalingly expensive, is also very very hard to kill, and even harder to kill before they do what they need to do, which is drop in 30 Terminators.



Fix'd it for you. ;)

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 07:55
They do.



Points costs are always an issue of discussion. Unfortunately, this is not allowed currently in regard to this codex. And too, 95% of the people reading this thread would not have a point of reference.

As for the cost of CSMs, havocs, etc., you have to start with the assumption that the extra stuff they got (bolter, bolt pistol, CCW, grenades) were all adequately pointed before. Since almost no one I know ever used krak or frag grenades, except as an afterthought, then I would argue they were not adequately pointed versus their utility before. Add to this the severe restrictions on unit upgrades, as well as the somewhat diminishing returns for taking icons, etc., and I can see their points cost being reasonable. Few Chaos players field units over 10 models, and now they can go to 20; obviously, with set points costs for icons, they are better with large units; but large units are both unwieldy, redundant, and very pricey for the typical game of 1,500-2,000 points. Whereas a small unit (5-8, which is the typical unit size) with an icon pays a premium for that icon.



Ok but these points in relation to the SM redux then suggest (to me anyway) either that the new Space Marines are over costed or CSM are undercosted receiving as they do an extra attack for roughly 1/2 pt each. This gives them a great deal more flexability as well as defensive and offensive potential over their loyalist counterparts. This makes CSMs, at least on a unit to comparable unit basis considerably better and for no noticable cost than loyalists. This in itself doesn't make for a particularly fair encounter. This is especially true when chaos faces assault armies where they can (and if the Chaos general is shrewd...will) start with an advantage simply by virtue of having excellent close combat troops who can also shoot very well.

I'm also aware that the codexes represent different forces and therefore should not be exactly the same. However, the forces ARE highly similar in a great many respects and if any forces make for a fair comparrison its traitors and loyalists. The fact of the matter remains that CSMs have an advantage for which they aren't paying any real points (Grey hunters paid 3pts above the old SM points for that flexability and its not even as good as what CSM have now).

As for the marks while they may be useful but also dependant upon squad size as you've fairly pointed out Eldanar, they remain an option which there is no pressing need to take in the first place. I'd agree that points cost are always going to be a hot topic but given fair consideration CSMs in my mind remain undercosted for what they can do.

willydstyle
19-08-2007, 08:40
ATSKNF is easily the best morale rule in the game. If a CSM squad is getting spanked in combat, they lose and can fairly easily get rundown, and even if they escape will often have no chance of regrouping. As an example, I had some terminators holding up several enemy units in close combat. They made some bad rolls for ONE round of combat, and lost by one model, since they were outnumbered badly, they ran away. Normal space marine terminators would have continued to hold in that combat, or would have fallen back, regrouped, and gotten straight back into the fight.

Also, loyalist marines get HQ's that actually enhance the fighting and morale capability of their own men. A chaplain with a squad can be much deadlier than a squad of berzerkers, even if they berzerkers are joined by a Lord, and for similar if not less points after upgrades.

I think that keeping these two differences in mind, the new traitor marines are fairly costed, since they don't have HQ's that can enhance them, they need to be better on their own, and they will still run away in circumstances where you may NEED a squad to fight against the odds.

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 08:56
I don't think loyalist ATSKNF really makes up for the differences in offensive power. Sure SM will regroup if broken but then again with ld 10 CSM will regroup the VAST majority of the time anyway. Not only this but they won't be as likely to run away in the first place and ontop of that they are less likely to lose the combat in the first place due to being harder in cc. Its for these reasons ATSKNF is not a balancing factor between the two forces.

A squad joined by a Chaplain is possibly deadlier than a squad of bezerkers but then again they'll cost twice as much. If the bezerkers are joined by a lord (or a Daemon prince for a few points more) then its very likely the bezerkers will win hands down.

Also I would like to note that a chaplain can only benefit one unit at a time and the benefits are recieved only on the charge.SM Commanders help every unit on the board but the leadership bonus is often irrelevant due to ld 9 ATSKNF (A useful ability certainly but just not as good as 2 attacks and leadership 10). Also as previously noted Ld is usually only useful when your getting your head kicked in and as such its not as good as having the potential to deal out that hurt in the first place.

I can see your points, I just don't agree with them.

grizzly ruin
19-08-2007, 09:18
Needless to say I was originally in the somewhat chagrined camp of serious Chaos players who were/are somewhat discouraged by the rumors and inuendo. However, I do not think we came out nearly as bad as I first feared.

No we didn't come out that bad. However the overall reduction of options, which is compounded by several cleary bad units is most certainly disappointing.

There is still power there, it's just different combinations than before.





What I was worried about was the loss of shooting, the loss of veteran skills, the loss of customization and the loss of daemons.

That's pretty much exactly what has been removed.





But first, a quick analysis of each of the sections:

1. The first thing I was worried about was them fiddling with my HQ options too much.

snip...

A few notes

DPs have gotten an excellent discount package including Eternal Warrior, and the ability to take two of them and provide two threats makes up for the overall loss of previous power.


DPs also now have the ability to deepstrike, though some may not find that option so appealing.

I'm not going to go into it at length, but the Lash of Submission is going to be a part of competative Chaos lists unless it gets FAQd, banned or we get yet another codex.

I also think the Sorcerer should be getting his powers cheaper than the DP, and the Lord looks like the least appealing option of all 4 HQs, to me anyway.





2. The Elites present some new and interesting options as well. The two best options are the terminators (dirt cheap) and the dreadnought (also relatively cheap). The terminators in particular can be fielded in units of 3-10.

The Chosen are still attractive having access to many more options and being the only unit to infiltrate.

Agreed on terminators.

I totally disagree on Dreads. The new crazed rules put them into the not worth the effort pile.

Terminators and Chosen are easily the two best options in elites.






The Possessed, sadly, are really only going to be good for modellers. Unpredictability of rules combined with (for this codex) a relatively high points cost, and you might as well keep them shelved.

The possesed are a total disappointment. A unit that everyone wants to like, but just got even more overpriced and now less reliable.

The abilities table could have been done in such a way to be a flavor option without making the unit both overpriced an ineffective.





One note is that the 1000 Sons with inferno bolts are just sick, however they come with a hefty price tag, mainly due to the cost of the sorceror.

Buying the Sorcerer is only expensive if you normally buy squads without an AC. Otherwise, they compare well costwise to all other troop ACs with Powerfists. Buying the power can be looked at as buying a special weapon, and doombolt is both cheap and useful.




The fast choices really let me down. I know a lot of people are ga ga over the raptors, but I just don't see it. They are a third more expensive than a marine, and they give up the bolter. 10 marines in a rhino are cheaper than 10 raptors. [I have played against all jump pack BA armies, and the only conclusion I can come to is jump packs simply allow your models to die faster.]

Raptors keep their mobility the entire game allowing better use of weapons like meltas and flamers.
They also do not need to be 10 strong to take two specials, and their
mobility often allows for better positioning to get into assault or countercharge.

They are also a faster more mobile platform to bring in deepstriking terminators, oblits or even a GD.




Shooting Issues

I was really concerned here about loss of shooting, and how this would effect the army overall, particularly in light of the new vent of the game to a more shooting oriented rules set.

We have lost long range firepower throughout most of the list.

We still retain solid access to mid & close range firepower, with the addition of even more AP3 options.

mightygnoblar
19-08-2007, 14:40
Demon princes are one of the most disputed entries in the codex in my opinion. Some people are annoyed that they have lost some of their power as they are no longer customisable-which is a fair point, as some of the (frankly overpowered) cominations are now gone, however if you at it another way, as in "what they come with" you will see that they are rather a bargin.
Taking an old chaos lord as the starting point they effectively "come with" daemonic stature (with an even higher WS and BS), daemonic strength, daemonic mutation, daemonic essence, daemonic aura and daemonic rune. This combination would have come to 105pts under the old rules (an illegal combination) plus they still get to take wings on top of that, not to mention being a sorcerer for free. Truely a bargin in my oppinion

airmang
19-08-2007, 16:57
i think the new daemon prince is great! i've used one a couple of times now to great success. from what i see the only real thing he lost was the ability to take a daemon weapon, usually a dread axe from the last codex. but i feel that was ususally a bit overpowered, especially with as many attacks he could have. he is just a steal now, and i've had to resist he urge to put two in the list. added to his new stats, giving him a mark helps out too. i have been using the mark of tzeentch on him and it's helped alot. i could also see any of the othe marks being useful.

i also think that termies and chosen are the best elites, but i still am not going to dismiss the possesed and dreads. i think possesed will have some great uses, i really don't see any of their abilites, except for maybe scout, as not being useful. by the way how does this work, since you roll after deployment, in a mission where they don't normally deploy? do they esentially get to deploy after everything else, and then move? this could be very powerful. esentially getting to infiltrate, in your own deployment zone, and then move. however i also plan on taking them with the new cheaper rhinos, just incase i don't get a movement ability.

and dreads, i think they help add to chaos' long range shooting. i don't see the fire frenzy being something that people should worry alot about. i actually liked it less when my long range shooty dread would blood rage, which still happened very rarely.

i really like the new dex, and yes, it does take some trials to get used to some of the new stuff. and i've tried it out all weekend, and haven't found anything i don't like.

just my 2 cents.

Grand Master Raziel
19-08-2007, 17:59
You can't infiltrate your army, as many Nurgle players like to do. But just as I think my tank hunter havocs were a crutch I had come to rely on a little too much, heavily infiltrating armies were as well.


Thank you for saying that! On the threads discussing the new dex, a tremendous number of players complained about losing those things as if GW was out to personally slap each and every one of them in the face! It's nice to see a more reasoned point of view.


The twin lascannon option is probably the worst load out for the dred. It can be the same cost with a plasma cannon, or even cheaper with a multi-melta, than an imperial dread. For this cheap cost alone, it is a great option for players that want to concentrate their points in other sections of the FOA. It also is going to be a good buy for people that want to run the Chaos "godzilla" list.

Probably ought to call that list the Mechagodzilla list, since it's mostly vehicles (Dreads and Defilers).


i really do think thats you are underestimating the khorne berserkers here, they may not have the special rules that other cults have but what they do have makes them simple but very effective at what they do, they are ws5, and with furious charge s5 I5 not to mention the exta attack, lots of armies would sell there soles to chaos for a unit like that, they also lost there downside of being so unpredictable

Yup. No more leading them around with expendable units such as empty Rhinos or lone Land Speeders. Having full tactical control of them all the time is a not-inconsiderable boost.


Ah, but you're forgetting that loyalist Chapters benefit from the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule. So the points values in the new Chaos 'dex should be about right. Chaos Marines may be armed to the teeth, but loyalist Marines have far better willpower and discipline.

Now, are you saying that the Chaos Icons don't come with associated Leadership benefits?



I do not see any alternative for Chaos now to deal with those pesky JSJ type units, other than to pin my hopes on deepstriking terminators with combi-plasma coming in and whiping those types of things out.

They're pesky for everybody. The only good solution for dealing with them is to have a number of units fast enough to chase them down. Alternately, DSing something to cut off their line of retreat can help as well, but it's not as reliable, and likely to result in the loss of whatever you DSed.


As for the cost of CSMs, havocs, etc., you have to start with the assumption that the extra stuff they got (bolter, bolt pistol, CCW, grenades) were all adequately pointed before. Since almost no one I know ever used krak or frag grenades, except as an afterthought, then I would argue they were not adequately pointed versus their utility before.

Well, I always buy frags for my units if there's even the slightest chance I'll use them in assault. I agree with you on the kraks - a half-point per model would probably be all I'd be willing to pay for them. Might as well have them free. That said, the real bone of contention on the pricing is the bolter-bp-ccw combo of armament. The next most comparable thing is a Space Wolf Grey Hunter with bolter-ccw and True Grit. He prices in at 3 points more than the new CSMs, and his combo of gear, though cool, is not as good as the bolter-bp-ccw trinity, and he doesn't come with any grenades for that cost either. So, either CSMs are undercosted or, under the new thinking, SW Grey Hunters are overcosted.


The proof though is on the table top, and I both watched and played against a new codex Chaos list today. The guy playing Chaos is a former GT winner and knows a little bit about what he is about (and he even had the dreaded Lash power, on no less than 2 daemon princes) . He barely eked out a draw versus a Blood Angels army and he got slaughtered by my all-foot Eldar army.


I might change my tune once I square off against it on the tabletop, but I suspect that the balancing factor of the DP with Lash is the fact that being a MC, he can always be singled out to be shot at, and at only T5 base (T6 at best with Icon of Nurgle), he's fairly vulnerable to every army's standard infantry weapons, much more so to any heavies opposing armies might be packing. So, if an opponent is counting heavily on Lash to be his game winner, a turn or two of shooting ought to bring down the DPs, making the rest of his strategy fall apart. Or so the hypothesis goes, anyway. :chrome:

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 18:42
The problem lies that the chaos player will usually get the jump due to having wings and if you have 2 daemon princes that can easily mean destroying 2 of the opposing armies best units or wiping out those units in LOS to the daemon prince(s) before going on to repeat the process.

As to the which is more poorly costed, a Grey Hunter or a CSM, I think we all the know the answer if we are to give it any serious consideration.

Al.

chaz100
19-08-2007, 18:48
Could anyone please answer a quick few questions? I play a Death Guard army and am a bit curious as too how they've changed, my usual set up is off a foot slogging force supported by Terminators.

Can you put the Mark of Nurgle on Terminators?

I've heard about the fact that you can give standard marines an icon and have Plague marines as troops, whats the difference?

Whats happened to the whole true grit thing? I see that they are still selling bolter/knife plague marines on the GW site, but have the rules changed at all?

Does Nurgle's sacred number have any significance anymore?

Can Nurgle take heavy weapons now?

If anyone could help me out here, I'd be very grateful.

LostTemplar
19-08-2007, 19:29
Two points.

1. "New" Chaos Dreadnought table seems awfully like the original table. So its not "new". I think it was the same in early 3rd edition and in 2nd edition.

2. Marines will all get free BP, Frag, kraks, etc. Moot point here.

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 19:51
But they don't get (nor appear to be getting) close combat weapons which is the whole point of the debate.

Al.

Grand Master Raziel
20-08-2007, 00:26
The problem lies that the chaos player will usually get the jump due to having wings and if you have 2 daemon princes that can easily mean destroying 2 of the opposing armies best units or wiping out those units in LOS to the daemon prince(s) before going on to repeat the process.

At this point, I'm not overly concerned about that. Lately, I've been in the practice of putting a power fist in all my squads, even my Dev squads. That combined with having full-sized squads means that I don't have any squads that would be a pushover for one of the new DPs to defeat. Even with the wings, they're probably not going to be in close combat on the first turn, so most players should be able to get in at least one round of shooting at them before they have to cope with them in assault. Being T5 makes them horrendously vulnerable as MCs go, so they even have to sweat lasgun fire, much more so massed bolters or, God forbid, massed Tau pulse rifles. Throw in the possibility of getting tagged with AP2-3 weaponry (almost none of which will wound on less than a 2+ roll), and all of a sudden Daemon Princes are not looking like they're going to be game winners all by themselves. Chaos players are going to have to be real careful with those things if they don't want them to just get smoked in the first turn or two. At least, that's my current hypothesis on the topic.


As to the which is more poorly costed, a Grey Hunter or a CSM, I think we all the know the answer if we are to give it any serious consideration.
Al.

Well, if you compare the new dex's average CSM to the new BA and DA Tactical Marines, the comparison is much more favorable. The CSM gets an extra attack in CC, but on the other hand does not have ATSKNF, so if the squad breaks and runs, it might not be coming back, especially if it's under 50%. It's only when you compare the new CSM to the SMs from books released previously to Codex: Dark Angels that makes the new CSM seem seriously undercosted. The new Codex: Chaos Space Marines is most appropriately compared with the dexes that have come out this year, and maybe Codex: Eldar and Codex: Tyranids. Anything before that was written with a completely different design philosophy, making comparisons of individual figures or units rather difficult. I mean, who knows what the next iteration of a Space Wolf Grey Hunter will be like and how he'll be costed?

CommisarMolotov
20-08-2007, 00:34
Could anyone please answer a quick few questions? I play a Death Guard army and am a bit curious as too how they've changed, my usual set up is off a foot slogging force supported by Terminators.

Can you put the Mark of Nurgle on Terminators?
-Yep, but they're not considered "Plague Marines."

I've heard about the fact that you can give standard marines an icon and have Plague marines as troops, whats the difference?
-Actual "Plague Marines" also have Feel No Pain, Blight grenades, and a slightly reduced Initiative. They're also limited to special weapons instead of heavy weapons in their squads.

Whats happened to the whole true grit thing? I see that they are still selling bolter/knife plague marines on the GW site, but have the rules changed at all?
-They lost "True Grit," but gained a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW just like Dark Angels and Blood Angels, so they actually come out ahead.

Does Nurgle's sacred number have any significance anymore?
-Nope, unfortunately.

Can Nurgle take heavy weapons now?
-Yep. You can give a Havoc squad the Mark of Nurgle (but again, they don't count as "Plague Marines.")

Baaltharus
20-08-2007, 00:39
BA and DA do not get a close combat weapon (and neither do they have an option for them), they get grenades and a bolt pistol and a bolter.

Al.

The_Patriot
20-08-2007, 00:39
Overall, I like the new dex because it gives my Sisters a fighting chance against Chaos now. :D

Lord_Crull
20-08-2007, 00:44
http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/9/postid/178444/view/topic/Default.aspx

This is an intresting humor story about a space marine turing tratior.

I think that it highlights I concerns with the new codex perfectly.

mightygnoblar
20-08-2007, 00:59
BA and DA do not get a close combat weapon (and neither do they have an option for them), they get grenades and a bolt pistol and a bolter.

Al.

and neither do chaos squads get the option of buying atsknf, which is an incredibly useful ability that space marine players seem to take for granted. They dont get run down, and can still regroup even if the squads 1 model strong, an ability that that i would gladly give up the cc weapon for, because there is really nothing more annonying than losing combat by one only to get unlucky on ld roles and be run down, a problem that space marines do not have-all that happens to them is they are forced to take a few armour saves, meaning that you could lose at worst 3 models whereas chaos have the possiblity of losing whole squads

Eldanar
20-08-2007, 02:48
On the daemon prince issue, I would put my old daemon prince against any new daemon prince any day of the week. Are the new DPs cheaper...e DP yes. Are they nearly as good...not really.

I never took the Chaos rune because it simply was not needed. The only things that could ID (or kill outright :rolleyes:) the DP was S10, wraithcannons and force weapons, so it just was not needed. Eternal warrior only prevents S10 and wraithcannons. However, I see a lot more force weapons than I do the other two, and until GW ever cleans that little rule screw up, its still going to "kill outright". THe same thing with a 4th wound. It is redundant and superfluous. So, my basic premise is as good as the DP's are, I probably could have built a much, much better one for only about 30 points more under the old rules. (But I can now field two, so that kind of salves this gripe...;) )

As for points costs of CSMs. They cost more than before. And like I said, you have to start with the premise that the grenades are all worth a few points to begin with (I do not think they are). As for the bolter/bolt pistol thing, you can only use one at a time, so I can see a disount for the second gun. Finally, any player of an army that has access to the ass. cannon has no room to complain about other armies having undercosted units or gear...:eyebrows:

Sarevok
20-08-2007, 02:48
The redux SM also need 10 men to get a heavy weapon.


But they can use combat squads to put the HW in a 5-man squad. OTOH a Lascannon isnt really viable in a 10 man squad.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2007, 03:06
chaos marines are not heavy weapon dudes - havocs are ... sad that so few understand it

sebster
20-08-2007, 07:04
BA and DA do not get a close combat weapon (and neither do they have an option for them), they get grenades and a bolt pistol and a bolter.

Al.

Both SMs and CSMs get bolters and pistols and a full grenade load out. As a point of difference CSMs get a CCW, while SMs get ATSKNF and the ability to split into combat squads.

CMSs have more effectiveness in melee. SMs are a little more likely to stay on the field, and a little more tactically versatile as they can double their number of scoring units and are able to deploy a more efficient heavy weapon team.

They’re interesting differences that should make the two units feel very different. I don’t think CSMs should be more expensive, they’re about right compared to their loyalist brethren.

Heritor
20-08-2007, 07:30
Thank you for all of those kind words.

I can honestly say that it is hard for me to get my mind around a new codex until I have had a chance to sit down and actually write up a couple of army lists.

My first attempt came down to the following:

HQ
Khorne DP with wings
Tzeentch DP with bolt of Tzeentch
Greater Daemon

Elite
8 terminators with 2 combi-plasma and a champion
8 terminators with 2 combi-plasma and a champion
dread with plasma cannon

Troops
5 CSM with melta gun and champion with power weapon
-rhino with havoc launcher
5 CSM with melta gun and champion with power weapon
-rhino with havoc launcher
5 CSM with plasmagun and champion with power weapon
5 CSM with plasmagun and champion with power weapon

Fast
[none]

Heavy
predator with autocannon and 2 lascannon sponsons
predator with autocannon and 2 lascannon sponsons
2 obliterators

This ended up being 56 models carrying 62 wounds and with 5 armored vehicles. And this all came in right at 2,000 points.

I might drop the terminator champions and add two more combi-plasma guns to each squad. I'll have to play a few games and see how this works out.

I also might experiment and take some cult troops.


thats over 2k pts...without the Rhino's your at 2010 and with the Rhinos you arre 110 over. :P

Cool list though its really funny how cheap Terminators are.

Baaltharus
20-08-2007, 10:50
As for points costs of CSMs. They cost more than before. And like I said, you have to start with the premise that the grenades are all worth a few points to begin with (I do not think they are). As for the bolter/bolt pistol thing, you can only use one at a time, so I can see a disount for the second gun. Finally, any player of an army that has access to the ass. cannon has no room to complain about other armies having undercosted units or gear...:eyebrows:

Ohho, I forgot how the assault cannon (30 and 35 points) was a cheap and undercosted option...Hmmm actually, on second thoughts it seems that it is neither cheap nor undercosted.

fwacho
20-08-2007, 11:00
Seravok had an intereseting point that he could have expanded further. I'm gogin to assume that CSMs cannot use combat squads nor have ATSKNF. The value of combat squads to a SM player is very well worth it. particaully when a 16 stong CSM squads is shootin gat a 5 man squad, or 10 strong CSM squad sits still to shoot a lascannon. I tink the point values start to balance a littel bit in these conditions. The loyal SM is bit more flexable and mobile compared to the CSM who is more brute force and won't regroup below half str. (Tau markerlights causing havok anyone.)

Baaltharus
20-08-2007, 12:02
Combat squads are useful when you take heavy weapons but fewer people take heavy weapons now than they did before, not only this but if you want to make the worth out of a rhino your better forming up into a full 10 man squad. CSM won't be using heavy weapons, they'll be using assault weapons and other forms of close-medium ranged attacks (if there wise) as they have oblits, havocs, defilers, preds and vindicators to provide great fire support.

ATSKNF is good but it doesnt matter to CSM as they almost never run away in the first place (From the 3rd edition codex I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen CSMs run away).

For shooting SM armies the combat weapons isn't a huge problem (however the lash and vind/oblits will be), for balanced and assault based SM armies the cc weapon is a very decisive factor (as it will be for all assault based armies).

chaz100
20-08-2007, 12:03
Bit of a newbie question here, but how does it work when you have a Bolter, BP and CC weapon?

Can you swap in the middle of a game? And if so, when?

Brother Loki
20-08-2007, 12:32
You can swap them freely each turn. If you choose to use your bolter, you can shoot once at 24" (assuming you haven't moved) or rapid fire at 12" but not assault. If you use your bolt pistol and CCW, you can shoot once at 12" and still assault, and count as having 2 weapons in close combat.

I believe you always count as having 2 weapons if someone else assaults you.

Hope that helps.
Pete

grizzly ruin
20-08-2007, 14:44
However, I see a lot more force weapons than I do the other two, and until GW ever cleans that little rule screw up, its still going to "kill outright". THe same thing with a 4th wound. It is redundant and superfluous.

The extra wound adds resilience vs. massed fire.

The Force weapon needs to actually get into combat with you.

Lash, Cheaper Raptors, DP tag team. These help to offset the power of the Force Weapon vs. the DP.

Not to mention with the cheap MoS, the DP is I6.




So, my basic premise is as good as the DP's are, I probably could have built a much, much better one for only about 30 points more under the old rules. (But I can now field two, so that kind of salves this gripe...;) )

Then I agree with your overall basic premise.





chaos marines are not heavy weapon dudes - havocs are ... sad that so few understand it

We understand that massed heavy weapons in Havoc squads are powerful.

We also understand that it's generally prohibitively expensive, and much safer to spread your heavies (particularly Lascannons) out amongst squads so one round of good firing can't take all your guns out and doesn't look like a big VP sandwhich.


Actually the best thing Havocs have going for them in the new dex is that they can:

Take an AC w/ a PF - just like standard squads
Come equipped with BP, Bolter, CCW, Frags, Kraks - just like standard squads
Can take icons at the same cost as standard squads
Can take Rhinos at the same cost as standard squads
Can buy Plasmaguns, Meltaguns & Flamers at the same cost as standard squads, except they can have up to 4 of them and do not need to be any particular unit size.


Aside from that they are good for massed HBs and ACs. But CSMs will need to look to other places for Lascannons.

The worst thing Havocs obviously have going for them is that they compete directly with Obliterators.

Eldanar
20-08-2007, 15:03
thats over 2k pts...without the Rhino's your at 2010 and with the Rhinos you arre 110 over. :P

Cool list though its really funny how cheap Terminators are.

I'm having to go from memory, because I am at work at the moment and my book and list are at home, but I am fairly certain my list came out to 2,000 even. (The only thing I cannot remember off the top of my head is how much the Tzeentch DP costs...) I had no upgrades other than what was listed.

Grand Master Raziel
20-08-2007, 16:56
and neither do chaos squads get the option of buying atsknf, which is an incredibly useful ability that space marine players seem to take for granted. They dont get run down, and can still regroup even if the squads 1 model strong,

I will attest to that being a considerable advantage. I've had several games lately where I've had squads whittled down to 1 guy, but because I could keep that 1 guy on the table I was able to deny my opponents over 100 VPs for each solitary survivor of a 200+ point squad.


Eternal warrior only prevents S10 and wraithcannons. However, I see a lot more force weapons than I do the other two, and until GW ever cleans that little rule screw up, its still going to "kill outright".

I don't think that's a rules screwup, I think that's a deliberate design consideration. A force weapon causes instant death in a much different manner than does a S(Tx2) weapon, so I see no reason why protection against being instakilled by S(Tx2) weapons should also protect against instakill from force weapons.



chaos marines are not heavy weapon dudes - havocs are ... sad that so few understand it

Or, CSM players (and DA and BA players, for that matter) could take heavies in their Troops that compliment and are complimented by the bolters of the squad they happen to be in. In other words, have your Troops choices take anti-infantry heavy weapons, and take your anti-tank heavy weapons on other platforms. Obliterators are probably the single best lascannon platform in the game, and I'd judge them to be the second-best anti-tank platform in the game, with the best being Tau Broadsides. Even with that, Oblits are way more versatile than Broadsides are, so I'd judge them to be a better unit overall.

Eldanar
20-08-2007, 19:34
I don't think that's a rules screwup, I think that's a deliberate design consideration. A force weapon causes instant death in a much different manner than does a S(Tx2) weapon, so I see no reason why protection against being instakilled by S(Tx2) weapons should also protect against instakill from force weapons.


Then how do you explain wraithcannons? :eyebrows: :p

Grand Master Raziel
20-08-2007, 21:39
Then how do you explain wraithcannons? :eyebrows: :p

Ouch! The Warp sucks! :D

Zerosoul
21-08-2007, 01:25
I'm having to go from memory, because I am at work at the moment and my book and list are at home, but I am fairly certain my list came out to 2,000 even. (The only thing I cannot remember off the top of my head is how much the Tzeentch DP costs...) I had no upgrades other than what was listed.

You're over by twenty points.

Eldanar
21-08-2007, 03:16
You are going to have to tell me what section I am off in points in? I looked over everything again and came out to 2,000 even again:

HQ 395
Elite 625
Troops 570
Hv Sup 410

Zerosoul
21-08-2007, 03:29
HQ. You're off by twenty points there. I can't say where without looking at your specific math, but I would guess you undercosted the Mark of Tzeentch significantly.

BiOvOrE
21-08-2007, 03:30
I was pretty non-plussed by Chaos, this time around, before I got hold of the Codex. After seeing the Death Shadows and Bleak Brotherhood, though, I was pretty impressed and re-invigorated to begin collecting CSM again. And I, for one, like the differentiation between the classic Traitor Legions and newer Renegade Marines/Chapters, and I like the emphasis on Renegades.

I think Chaos will have a wider appeal to players with the release of the new codex.

The only real disappointment was the lack of non-generic Daemons, but those are on the way, I believe. So, no big deal.

Eldanar
21-08-2007, 14:29
HQ. You're off by twenty points there. I can't say where without looking at your specific math, but I would guess you undercosted the Mark of Tzeentch significantly.

The Tzeentch DP only has the mark plus Bolt of Change; no wings, etc., IIRC. I think you must be thinking I put wings on him (which I might end up doing after I play a few games). Basically, he is just going to walk forward with the two plasma gun squads and act as a super dreadnought.

Zerosoul
21-08-2007, 15:25
The Tzeentch DP only has the mark plus Bolt of Change; no wings, etc., IIRC. I think you must be thinking I put wings on him (which I might end up doing after I play a few games). Basically, he is just going to walk forward with the two plasma gun squads and act as a super dreadnought.

Let me check my math again...

Ah, you're right. I was. You are absolutely right. Your math is spot on.

Eldanar
21-08-2007, 17:34
I will add this to my analysis:

I did not pick up on this originally, but after playing another game with my Eldar avatar, I went back and checked, and sure enough, the DP and GD do not count as ICs, only MCs. Therefore, they are scoring units. This is huge!

[Which I just added to my analysis on the first page.]