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Marius Xerxes
18-08-2007, 09:44
I have been going through differant forums, and I am seeing people now say the Development Team at GW has denied that a Redux is comming out anytime soon.. i.e. at least 2+ year away. I was wondering if anyone on here can confirm or deny this.. Is one or isnt one comming out anytime soon:confused:

theshadowduke
18-08-2007, 09:48
My guess is that atm the only people that know for sure are JJ and the people writing it.

Marius Xerxes
18-08-2007, 10:51
It deals with curent rumors of one comming out, i figured it was ok and fair to post. Also, Brimstone and the other moderators are very good at what they do, and I leave it to them who are in charge to deem value and relevence to any post made on Warseer. So please, unless you are among their group, please leave a comment that pertains to said post, rather then leaving snide comments about forum rules. I left this post as I said, because it pertains to current rumors and figured it was ok to post. No harm was intended beside getting to the bottom of said rumor. I apologize if my creativeness was not of the level of asking a question, without actually asking a question.

KingNova3000
18-08-2007, 11:26
Its been said by GW that Space Marine Redux will be done, but not for a long while. A couple of years at least.

Danjester
18-08-2007, 11:54
Given the pretty good reception that the BA codex got in WD, there's a good chance we'll see more done in this way, probably SW and maybe an update for C:SM down the line too.

Sephiroth
18-08-2007, 12:01
Space Marine Redux is, and should be a long way off, as their are 40K forces much more deserving of immediate attention, the Orks and Dark Eldar as an example.

When it does happen, I expect it to bring them in line with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, i.e, Combat Squads, automatic Iron Halos for Captains, weapon options listed with the unit, etc.

If they do redo the Space Wolves 'dex, I'm hoping it will contain more than just the Sons of Russ - the Space Wolves are the "poster boys" of the unorthodox Chapters, but that doesn't mean their the only ones. Like the old Ultramarines Codex, which covered them and Codex Chapters, the Space Wolves 'dex should include, if nothing else, names and colour-schemes for making other non-Codex Chapters.

The Dark One
18-08-2007, 12:41
Given the pretty good reception that the BA codex got in WD, there's a good chance we'll see more done in this way, probably SW and maybe an update for C:SM down the line too.

i can't see space wolves going this way as they are an unorthodox Chapter.

at a guess i would say space marine redux would be the year after space wolves, so about 2010

Danjester
18-08-2007, 12:45
If they do redo the Space Wolves 'dex, I'm hoping it will contain more than just the Sons of Russ - the Space Wolves are the "poster boys" of the unorthodox Chapters, but that doesn't mean their the only ones. Like the old Ultramarines Codex, which covered them and Codex Chapters, the Space Wolves 'dex should include, if nothing else, names and colour-schemes for making other non-Codex Chapters.
I disagree. Do the SW codex in WD, but do just that. There's enough stuff in C:SM for non-standard chapters via the trait system.

The BA and DA are both non-standard chapters and they've now had codicies featuring just them and known successors

If someone really needs help coming up with names and colour schemes for their homebrewed chapter, they're probably not ready for wargaming.

Danjester
18-08-2007, 12:52
why would chaos space marines get updated in this way when they are out in a week or so (if they wanted them to work like the space marines they would have sorely done it)
Erm, just to clarify; when I put C:SM I mean Codex: Space Marines nothing to do with Chaos at all.

The Dark One
18-08-2007, 15:01
Erm, just to clarify; when I put C:SM I mean Codex: Space Marines nothing to do with Chaos at all.

oh sorry, i missed read that


If someone really needs help coming up with names and colour schemes for their homebrewed chapter, they're probably not ready for wargaming.

some people like using chapters that are in a book

Scorpion
18-08-2007, 15:46
<rant>
You know what would be cool? If when all 3rd Ed codexes are remade, GW launched an OMFG-Über-Special-Edition of 40K 4th Edition complete with ALL codexes! (Yeah, you heard it: ALL rules for ALL races!) Maybe just with the rules, no fluff or painting guides or whatnot! (Or else the BGB woul be about 500 pages long...)

Whaddya think?
</rant>

Norminator
18-08-2007, 15:52
I think that one of the designers actually said they haven't even begun to plan for a Marine redux yet - it was just assumed after the changes in Codex DA and BA that it would be done. I may be misremembering though.

Belisarius
18-08-2007, 15:55
when it is redone expect the trait system to go bye bye

NallTWD
18-08-2007, 16:45
Hooray generic marines, bye bye apothecary vet sgts...

GodofWarTx
18-08-2007, 17:35
when it is redone expect the trait system to go bye bye

Also expect landspeeder tornados to cost more than predators too!

Marovingean
18-08-2007, 17:52
I think the answer is no. I believe Jervis is quoted as saying there will be no such book, despite various rumours. This may change, but for the coming years, who knows?

M

Grand Master Raziel
18-08-2007, 18:32
I have been going through differant forums, and I am seeing people now say the Development Team at GW has denied that a Redux is comming out anytime soon.. i.e. at least 2+ year away. I was wondering if anyone on here can confirm or deny this.. Is one or isnt one comming out anytime soon:confused:

That can't possibly be true. The power disparity between the current Codex: Space Marines and the recently released lists (DAs, BAs, and CSMs) is remarkable. GW has to rectify the situation quickly, otherwise those three armies will lose all but the most dedicated players, the others drifting to the more advantageous Codex: Space Marines.

Besides, cranking out SM-Redux shouldn't be too hard, as most of the work on the rules was effectively done when JJ wrote Codex: Dark Angels. Fluff and artwork can be had from the current Codex: Space Marines, and virtually all the unit entries can be had from the current Codex: Dark Angels. All SM-Redux would really need in the way of new material is new Bike and Terminator entries, and entries for generic Chapter Masters, Master Librarians, and Master Chaplains. They'd also have to give some thought to what to give for a second Troops choice in SM-Redux if Scouts get shifted to Elites. They'd have to decide if they want something to be a second Troops choice all the time, as with Codex: Blood Angels, or if they want to allow other units to conditionally count as Troops choices if other selections are made, such as with Codex: Dark Angels. Still, that's a heck of a lot easier than conjuring up the whole thing from scratch.

Reclusiarch
18-08-2007, 20:12
And feel free to ignore the doomsayers, there's nothing that says that the trait system will vanish or that the (possibly) new codex will be anything like the Dark Angels, blood Angels or Black Templar. They are just jumping to conclusions. :)

MrBigMr
18-08-2007, 20:33
Although I'm a big fan of Trait and Doctrine systems, resent releases have given strong indications that such variations are things of the past. If they truly did remove such things from new SM and IG codexes, I'll certainly cry blood out of my ass, but tough it out and hope for better tomorrow.

If Chaos is worthy of losing all the neat-o stuff that made them fun, I don't see why SM should be any different. But then again SM is GW's goose that lays golden eggs, so they ain't gonna cut it open. SM get the reach around while all the other armies take it up the pooper. Damn momma's boys.

BDJV
18-08-2007, 20:40
Yeah, jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

After seeing the blandized Chaos codex, I am 99 percent positive the Traits are History!

Steeple_jackuk
18-08-2007, 21:07
I think something is going to need to be done for marine armies in that since the standard feature of most other marine armies (Dark Angels, Blood Angels and now Chaos Marines) gives them two CC weapons, they are going to be far more deadly in CC than say standard smurfs, or other chapters that rely on the current codex. I appreciate that other races deservedly need updating but its sad that what they've done for some chapters they couldn't rule was now permissible for all standard chapters.

Sj.

Marius Xerxes
18-08-2007, 21:23
I think the biggest question with doing an overhaul of the current Marine Dex, is you have a lot of players to appeal to with a new dex. You have the people who play armies that adhere to the Index like DA, and BA, but you also have people who are just as much divergent as the Space Pups. My thinking would be to do something along the line of the new Chaos perhaps, in making squad sizes variable, but even Chaos still has to have 10 men in a reg unit to have a heavy. Id think they could draw from both Codices to make them.

I agree, Space Marines in general are the money maker, and when your in financial straits, you don't mess with the money maker until your new format is completely tried and true. By making other codices first, you not only appease the players of those armies, you set it up that your money maker comes out after all kinks and what not can be seen and worked on compared to all other armies (or most of them).

Dooks Dizzo
18-08-2007, 23:47
I think it should be awhile until Marines get redone. There are many reason, the main being that other races flat out NEED new codex's.

Also it would depent on what they want to do. even though assault cannons are pretty abusable it would be screwed up to suddenly start telling people they can't use 1/2 the models with assault cannons in their army.

Or limiting terminators to 5 man squads. People paid a lot of money for the new terminators, it would be wrong to suddenly only allow half as many.

Tulun
19-08-2007, 00:11
I certainly hope they re-do SM soon; considering how much they hit Dark Angels (you could easily build a DA army with codex SM, except it's all cheaper for 99% of the stuff people use... yay!). the C:SM costs have to be brought in some line with the new chapter coming out, otherwise, it's just foolish not to play a traited army.

The trait system is also the silliest thing they came out with. I think picking your traits would have been fine if they hadn't been so stupid with the disadvantages... PICKING your own disadvantages? Worst idea they came up with, considering how some of the disadvantages are complete jokes (I never infiltrate, I don't take allies, etc...). Disadvantages should have been built into the trait you picked.

Just comparing Dark Angels and C:SM is just... amusing. Blood Angels got hit, but I'm sure if you see a BA army, it'll be the all (or mostly all) Jump Pack force, which is something they couldn't do before.

Lionsbane
19-08-2007, 00:24
I don't see two CCW as standard in C:BA. Havn't read C:DA but I'm assuming its the same. Tactical squads get Bolter and Bolt Pistol. Which does not give them the ability to use the Bolter as a second CCW. Certain squads, mostly Elites or HQ that I can see get Bolt Pistol and (Bolter or Chainsword). Letting you field them as standard or assault versions. Bolter and Bolt Pistol just allows marines to fire the Bolt Pistol and charge if they so desire, whereas you cannot fire a Boltgun and charge by the rules.

Am I wrong here somehow?

Belisarius
19-08-2007, 04:04
I certainly hope they re-do SM soon; considering how much they hit Dark Angels (you could easily build a DA army with codex SM, except it's all cheaper for 99% of the stuff people use... yay!). the C:SM costs have to be brought in some line with the new chapter coming out, otherwise, it's just foolish not to play a traited army.

The trait system is also the silliest thing they came out with. I think picking your traits would have been fine if they hadn't been so stupid with the disadvantages... PICKING your own disadvantages? Worst idea they came up with, considering how some of the disadvantages are complete jokes (I never infiltrate, I don't take allies, etc...). Disadvantages should have been built into the trait you picked.

Just comparing Dark Angels and C:SM is just... amusing. Blood Angels got hit, but I'm sure if you see a BA army, it'll be the all (or mostly all) Jump Pack force, which is something they couldn't do before.

while I agree the trait system was abused with apoc coming out a lot of players may want to rethink the have no allies disadvantage. No infiltrate did place you at a disadvantage vs an infiltrating force that could then shape the battlefield. However a lot of it comes down to local style of play as far as that is concerned.

loveless
19-08-2007, 04:12
I don't see two CCW as standard in C:BA. Havn't read C:DA but I'm assuming its the same. Tactical squads get Bolter and Bolt Pistol. Which does not give them the ability to use the Bolter as a second CCW. Certain squads, mostly Elites or HQ that I can see get Bolt Pistol and (Bolter or Chainsword). Letting you field them as standard or assault versions. Bolter and Bolt Pistol just allows marines to fire the Bolt Pistol and charge if they so desire, whereas you cannot fire a Boltgun and charge by the rules.

Am I wrong here somehow?

No, you're quite right.

Dark and Blood Angels have Bolt Pistol and Bolter - not Bolt Pistol, Bolter, and Chainsword like Chaos Marines

The Dude
19-08-2007, 14:51
There is a Redux.

You can download a copy here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97307);)

Wolf Scout Ewan
19-08-2007, 15:01
Sm redux isnt needed.

Glabro
19-08-2007, 21:44
Any Angels player who refuses to use their codices and instead uses C:SM to create his generic las-plas squads and 2-assault cannon terminators will not get a game from me.

MrBigMr
19-08-2007, 21:57
Any Angels player who refuses to use their codices and instead uses C:SM to create his generic las-plas squads and 2-assault cannon terminators will not get a game from me.
But if he paints and fluffs the army different, it's fair game. And why are people always assuming people use other codex just to get the most powerplay out of it? Why can't he use normal 10 marine squads and so forth?

I switched my future Slaanesh army from the new Chaos codex to the SM one because it suited my fluff far better than the Chaos one. Would you play me? Or am I some xiit who did it just to get the most bang for my buck?

bannus
20-08-2007, 14:55
Gw may not have a choice about when to release a redux.

Think about it - Space Marines are (and always have been) 40K's cash cow. With so much uncertainty within the 40K communities it may begin to affect their sales.

Who wants to spend boatloads of money on an army that will suddenly need a bunch more money spent on it and models hacked to pieces and cobbled back together as soon as the army is done?

Right now, players are wondering if they should model their newest Assault Squads with flamers. They are trying to figure out how to build an army that will suddenly have different points values later on.

What about Sergeants with combi-weapons?

Chaplains with lightning claws?

Tornado Squadron with assault cannons?

The list can go on. This uncertainty may cause players to slow down on their purchases and army building. That - in turn - will begin to affect GW's profits....

Because of these concerns, GW will likely fast-track a Space Marine redux.

Telling everyone it is a long way off (whether this is true or not) is a good move on their part to encourage players to continue building their armies in the meantime.

KingNova3000
20-08-2007, 15:03
At the end of the day Space Marine redux is low on the to do list. Redux IMO would just make stocko marines a copy and paste of DA or BA. The current codex is fine, yes you have to pay extra for rhinos and a few other things but at the same time a lot of things a cheaper, a lot cheaper.

My stocko marines with no traits do well, very well against anything they come against. Lets face it the current marine dex isn't broken or out of date, just different.

If you think you're not doing well with you stocko marines then you're not playing right I say.

Keichi246
20-08-2007, 15:57
At the end of the day Space Marine redux is low on the to do list. Redux IMO would just make stocko marines a copy and paste of DA or BA. The current codex is fine, yes you have to pay extra for rhinos and a few other things but at the same time a lot of things a cheaper, a lot cheaper.

My stocko marines with no traits do well, very well against anything they come against. Lets face it the current marine dex isn't broken or out of date, just different.

If you think you're not doing well with you stocko marines then you're not playing right I say.

I think therein lies the problem, KingNova3000. :D

The ostensible reason for a redux would be to tone DOWN the codex a little; its that whole "a lot of things are cheaper" bit that is the issue.

The assault cannnon spamming, 6 man las/plas, some slightly broken traits, etc...

Personally, I'm slightly torn on the issue. I kinda like the way the new codices are going in some ways; but I must admit - I did enjoy tweaking my own personal commanders a bit. The reduced wargear options will kinda suck if it ever happens.

MrBigMr
20-08-2007, 16:28
As long as I still get terminator armor for sarges (through a Trait or something else), all my SM armies will be fine. My Chaos one can work without Eldar their preferred enemy, but it's far more fluffy than nothing.


Who wants to spend boatloads of money on an army that will suddenly need a bunch more money spent on it and models hacked to pieces and cobbled back together as soon as the army is done?
What about after you've spent the money a while ago? I feel sorry for all those who lost their fancy Forge World sonic dreads, EC havocs and terminators. Not to forget servo-armed Iron Warriors and so forth.


But like I said, my SM codex based armies, not to forget my IG one should be fine even if they change stuff. I'll just adapt if nothing else. I just think it's a little unnerving to have the thought of such big alterations hanging over your head that you don't whether you should actually try anything different, let alone if the 'normal' will still be there.

Calif
20-08-2007, 17:09
Dark Eldar needs an update before beakiez...

Over and out, Da Mekka

Wintermute
20-08-2007, 18:10
At the end of the day Space Marine redux is low on the to do list.

I'm sure I remember reading an interview with Jervis in which he said Redux is being Fast Tracked because the SM Codex is considered a failure by GW.

Havarel
20-08-2007, 18:11
What about after you've spent the money a while ago? I feel sorry for all those who lost their fancy Forge World sonic dreads, EC havocs and terminators.



How I dearly miss Noise Marine Terminators....the only reason to take them really. Luckily my lovely Sonic Dread from Forgeworld wasn't armed to the teeth with sonic weaponry, as the model (hell, all the FW models in the range) beat the actual chaos dread hands down.

Alpharius
20-08-2007, 18:31
How I dearly miss Noise Marine Terminators....the only reason to take them really. Luckily my lovely Sonic Dread from Forgeworld wasn't armed to the teeth with sonic weaponry, as the model (hell, all the FW models in the range) beat the actual chaos dread hands down.


Sadly, mine is... :mad:

I can't see a C: SM Redux coming anytime soon as it will:

1) Kill sales, as the "blandizing" trend certainly won't help promote them here, especially without the 'excitement' of new models

2) Kill Games Developers, as fans of long awaited Xenos books will storm GW HQ and well, it won't be pretty...

Here's hoping that whenever it shows up (40K 5th edition?), the traits are still around (with proper disadvantages this time!) so I won't be 'forced' into fielding a Codex chapter...

Bobtheuseless
20-08-2007, 18:49
To be perfectly honest I am annoyed with the consatant attention that space marine armies get anyway, xenos armies dont get new books for differant craftworlds or cults or septs, heck the guard dont get seperate regimental ones now unless you go to bye bye bank balence imperial armour books. The present space marine list is perfectly useable and there are far more pressing concerns for other 40k armies such as Orks, Dark Eldar and Inquisitional forces.
I do agree with people that the traits need to be more restrictive though, as in their presant form im fed up with, 'I dont use allies, now my entire army has prefered enemy and true gri't did i mention the extra combat weapon at no cost?
Perhaps an online update to bring them inline with the present DA or BA unit costs (the tanks especially) but with that exception i think they should leave it untill well after every other 40k army has been revisited.

Rant over :)

suplicor
20-08-2007, 23:42
Someone told me there was a sign put up a GD LasVegas that read "NO Spacemarine Codex for Atleast 2 Years!" Did anyone see this?

fracas
21-08-2007, 02:03
i would like the see each first founding legion get one advantage and one disadvantage coupled together. advantage should be skill and disadvantage would be force composition.

JJ is right to suggest that C:SM as a failure as a starter/intro codex.

Alpharius
21-08-2007, 02:41
i would like the see each first founding legion get one advantage and one disadvantage coupled together. advantage should be skill and disadvantage would be force composition.

JJ is right to suggest that C:SM as a failure as a starter/intro codex.

Well, that's a matter of opinion.

I happen to disagree.

And I think JJ is not giving his audience enough credit (well, aside from his kid, of course!).

big squig
21-08-2007, 03:05
I'd love it if they got the marine redux out of the way this summer. It should be a small releases as there wouldn't be any new mini's to go with it. And most of the book is already written really.

As for the traits, I hope they go. Cool factor or not, all the variant stuff needs to just go.

Hellfury
21-08-2007, 04:59
Marines redux.

Keep everything, just make the drawbacks actual drawbacks.

Thats really the only thing wrong with it, is that the drawbacks are so weak. If you have Wisdom of the ancients, then you should be forced to take a certain drawback, not anyone you want.

Thats where its gonna be funky in balancing.

it should represent a DIY book, not an ultramarines book. Too many chapters dont follow the CA so why force everyone with bland DA/BA rules?

Give me termies with two heavy weapons, but give me a drawback for doing so.

I want options AND I want it balanced. Yes, I want my cake and eat it too. Otherwise, if they do anything else, I may as well play DA.

Darned GW, doing everything backwards. DA should have had options, not ultramarines.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-08-2007, 09:33
i'd like balanced traits and unflexible basic list (hey! they are CODEX marines afterall) with scout as elites and 5 or 10 man basic squads (but with trait for those who want 6-7-8-9 man squads too; and with traits scouts as troops)

Wintermute
21-08-2007, 09:36
I'm going to move this thread to 40K General.

Wintermute
The WaeSeer Inquisition

CassiusDraconis
21-08-2007, 10:09
Having faced "codex" Trait Marines with my Dark Angels and seeing what they did to Blood Angels in the same league, I have to say that if they are toning down armies then Marines need a redux. I would temper this also by urging everyone to learn what Space Marines can and can't do under the current codex. Apparently there are a fair number of Marine players that fail to understand the limitations placed on their army. I have experienced those who think that they could take both infiltrate AND Tank hunters for thier Devastators under one trait and also fielding 5 man Terminator command squads instead of 4. I think the redux should be done as a White Dwarf article like the Blood Angels to "tide us all over" until a proper codex is appropriate. The reason being is that a lot of the options are way out of line with the direction that 4th edition is taking. I say this chiefly because the traits system is out of control. I really think that IF people are driven to play other armies because of a Marine Redux then this will benefit other armies. If other armies sell better then they should get more updates and models. Space Marines players also will benefit because people will be hard pressed to declare their army list "cheesy" Right now the only armies I have had worse than average record with are the Necrons and the Space Marines, and with Necrons I can usually trace the bad decision that sent things south. I hope to see something very similar to what The Dude put together. In fact, I wouldn't be disinclined to let any space marine player that wished to do so use the DA or BA codex in the interim.

Laughingmonk
21-08-2007, 10:16
Since DA focused on bike/ terminator based armies, and BA focused on jump marines, I would not be surprised if they put the focus on regular power armored marines.

By this, I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they put vet squads as the second troop choice for regular codex marines.

Perhaps make it conditional, like having to take a company master.

It would be justified (Regular company vets, combined with 1st company in power armor makes alot of vets), and also, it would still make some of the more radical traits (such as take the fight to them) still viable.

It would also provide a decent incentive to play regular codex marines.

Pure speculation though.

I, personally, will be keeping the faith.

infernus31
21-08-2007, 11:06
I can see GW doing a SM redux soonish, simply because being the codex nearly everyone owns it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the other marine codecii now (SWs and BT being the others but they're not bound by the codex astartes so are less noticeable)

To be honest I can see them getting rid of traits altogether , there are enough varient lists with the other 4 marine chapters if you want to 'count as', if you wanted min max then play Bt but no devs, if you want bikes- DA, jump packs BA, and Termies in the line squads play space wolves.

Personally once the Orks are done I wouldn't mind a space marine redux, Guard Crons and Inquisition Army seem to work ok at the mo and they need to spend a LOT of time to get the Dark Eldar minnies to look spiffy, and marines can be done quickly pretty much just a new book.

The only thing that I guess is kinda weird is that there is practically no new models needed for marines being that every unit bar librians, chaplains, veterans and scout bikers are plastic... Could do a plastic drop pod I guess?

chromedog
21-08-2007, 11:09
All of those people "jumping to conclusions" about SM:redux shouldn't feel too bad - It's probably more exercise than they usually get. (Face it, we're not seen as the most 'athletic' of hobbies, now are we?)

Pure speculation, as noted. They need to get Orks and DE done quickly - or dig themselves further into the financial hole they're in. I think GW are kinda hoping that Apoc will be the new bubble (like L-ot-freaking-r - gah, hobbits!) and counting on the few buying lots of the 'new' stuff. Me, if I was a shareholder, I'd be voting 'no confidence' in the current board. All this, is off topic, so I'll stop.

The traits system should go, so should the IG doctrines, and all of the filthy xenos races. All armies should only be Codex:UltraSmurf and they will automatically win ALL games. *




*and when this happens, I'll be over at the side, playing Warmachine or Stargrunt. Or maybe even FoW (when the tools playing it go play something else).

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 11:25
...and Termies in the line squads play space wolves.
Which is where you'll find my other SM army if they crap the traits and take away my Scions of Mars. And I'd guess an Exterminator would be a good addition to the army both style and fluff. I'll propably lose the Elite slot Devastators, which means I'll have to squeeze them back into Heavy and drop some tank. Or I'll just don't have them and take another Tactical squad instead.

I'm more worried about my Chaos army that I've made using normal Codex SM. Suffer Not The Alien To Life (Eldar) is fluffy for them, but I guess I can live without it. Other than that it's pretty standard codex.

If they do take away Traits, how will they have the Iron Hands? The fluff says they have terminator armors in normal tactical squads, so unless GW suddenly rewrites that, it'll cause so havoc. Hell, maybe they'll suffer the same fate as EC in the new Chaos codex (which is why I switched from Chaos codex to SM with the Chaos army).


All of those people "jumping to conclusions" about SM:redux shouldn't feel too bad - It's probably more exercise than they usually get. (Face it, we're not seen as the most 'athletic' of hobbies, now are we?)
Can't say for sure, but a good tournament day will result in more standing than I ever had to do on any given day in the army.


The traits system should go, so should the IG doctrines, and all of the filthy xenos races. All armies should only be Codex:UltraSmurf and they will automatically win ALL games.
I wouldn't mind losing the Doctrines, as long as they're compensated some other way. IG is suppose to be highly diversed and not just by paint and various bits. They're all over the board in their style, so some sort of variation should be implemented. So drop, some roll on tracks, some sneak, some rush, etc. There is no universal IG template. Every planet makes their own regiments with what they got and the Imperium just hauls their asses where ever they're needed.

Gutlord Grom
21-08-2007, 13:03
Besides, cranking out SM-Redux shouldn't be too hard, as most of the work on the rules was effectively done when JJ wrote Codex: Dark Angels. Fluff and artwork can be had from the current Codex: Space Marines, and virtually all the unit entries can be had from the current Codex: Dark Angels. All SM-Redux would really need in the way of new material is new Bike and Terminator entries, and entries for generic Chapter Masters, Master Librarians, and Master Chaplains. They'd also have to give some thought to what to give for a second Troops choice in SM-Redux if Scouts get shifted to Elites. They'd have to decide if they want something to be a second Troops choice all the time, as with Codex: Blood Angels, or if they want to allow other units to conditionally count as Troops choices if other selections are made, such as with Codex: Dark Angels. Still, that's a heck of a lot easier than conjuring up the whole thing from scratch.
So all GW's going to do is copy and paste? Might as well take a DA codex and just write Space Marines on it in red crayon, and tear out the Ravenwing and Deathwing sections. And all the special characters.

Cacodemon
21-08-2007, 13:22
The new Chaos Codex kicked Blood Angel Terminators and in lesser extent the Deathwing Terminators in the nuts. Chaos Terminators with Power Weapons are 10 pts cheaper than those armed with Power Fists, but not so with the loyalists. And Terminators Sergeants don't get the extra attack that Chaos Terminator Champions get. Deathwing Terminators have the option to change their SB/PW for Lightning Claws though, so they are then costed right.

GW also fluffed the chance to make the Cyclone Launcher (needs more shots) or Heavy Flamer an attractive choice for Terminators (my favourite would be to give all flamer weapons re-rolls to wound as their targets get caught on fire).

Grand Master Raziel
21-08-2007, 18:14
I'm sure I remember reading an interview with Jervis in which he said Redux is being Fast Tracked because the SM Codex is considered a failure by GW.

I don't suppose you can track down where that interview took place, could you boss?



2) Kill Games Developers, as fans of long awaited Xenos books will storm GW HQ and well, it won't be pretty...


The Xenos players will have to deal. They can't have it both ways. If they want SM armies toned down, then they have to also accept the fact that doing so means that GW will have to pay attention to Space Marines at the expense of their armies. Besides, claiming that neglecting the Dark Eldar is going to be the downfall of GW is rather farfetched.


So all GW's going to do is copy and paste? Might as well take a DA codex and just write Space Marines on it in red crayon, and tear out the Ravenwing and Deathwing sections. And all the special characters.

It depends on what they want to do. If they just want to rapidly bring SM armies in line with BA/DA/Chaos armies, then they could pretty much do exactly that. On the other hand, if they want to make SM-Redux a little less "Codex: Ultramarines" and a little more geared toward DIY chapters (or to give the other First Founding chapters a fairer shake than they currently get), it'll take a little more work all across the board (fluff, artwork, and rules). However, the core foundation of the rules is already established by Codex: Dark Angels. Strip away the 'wings, and you've got what a battle company SM force will likely look like in SM-Redux.

Wintermute
21-08-2007, 18:20
I don't suppose you can track down where that interview took place, could you boss?

I've already tried with little success.

IIRC the comments may have been made at a recent GD, but I don't recall which one.

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 21:08
Remember though, that Chaos doesn't get "And they shall know no fear" Special rules that Marines get. How much this is worth in points who knows, but don't just look at weapons and stat lines when other rules are involved also.

That aside..

Everyone who is saying JJ says the Codex is a complete failure, i would like some reference to that. Space Marines being the cash cow of GW, if it was a complete failure i think they would fix the situation very quickly, but as they are not... im thinking they are happy with it for now. With so many veteran players who play any number of armies from that codex, with those players overall dwarfing the amount who play Chaos, making changes that would affect the armies of so many people is going to have to be thought out long and hard before they go messing with their cash machine.

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 21:15
How much this is worth in points who knows, but don't just look at weapons and stat lines when other rules are involved also.
5pts. or that's what it costs to Guard through Afriel Strain.

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 21:30
Yeah id think its more then that for a marine. We all know similar rules on creatures with different stats cost different points cause said rules can be used more or less effectively.

Wintermute
21-08-2007, 22:19
Everyone who is saying JJ says the Codex is a complete failure, i would like some reference to that.

Its the second interview on this (http://loquenosgusta.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/entrevista-con-jervis-johson/) page.

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 22:27
Thank you for the link. And to quote from it...

"Finally, he also commented that the SM codex was considered a failure within the company because as the codex most commonly purchased by new players, it fails to properly introduce them into the hobby (as it doesn’t have the weapon diagrams like the new DA codex does)."

So based on that.. its a failure because of how the book was setup and organized.. not based on rules and army selection etc. I guess id read more carefully before using that interview to slam the Dex and the capabilities it has through Army selections and special rules etc...

Wintermute
21-08-2007, 22:38
So based on that.. its a failure because of how the book was setup and organized.. not based on rules and army selection etc. I guess id read more carefully before using that interview to slam the Dex and the capabilities it has through Army selections and special rules etc...

I didn't.

What I said was:


I'm sure I remember reading an interview with Jervis in which he said Redux is being Fast Tracked because the SM Codex is considered a failure by GW.

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 22:49
I did not mean it as a direct attack on you personally, and I apologize for having it come off that way. That last bit was not meant to go off of anything you personally said. I simply stated it because I have seen others try and say his saying it was a failure is their reason to say all their rules etc need to be re-done. I was just stating that is not what, based on that quote, he was implying.

Again I apologize for it coming off like i was directing that comment at you, or any comments you have posted.

jackveneno
22-08-2007, 01:42
people need to quit the complaining and making up rumors, yes there is 1 on the way but the truth is for every codex that comes out THEY ALL NEED TO BE UPDATED.
but the way these over eager complainers put it you would think that the marine book is so broken and overpowered that a new one needs to come out NOW because it throes the balance of the game out.

please quit the bi*(#!& and just wait until the update comes out when it is due.

Marius Xerxes
25-08-2007, 16:15
Agreed. If all these Codecies were so horribbly unbalanced then they would be sure fire wins at every single tournament. Looking at the Games Day events and who gets what Awards.. Space Marines by no means dominates all those catagories they way some would imply they do.