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dr.oetk3r
19-08-2007, 02:43
I've been wondering about this for a while now. Does anyone have a rational explanation as to why Gue' vesa were not included in the Tau codex? I mean, the gue' vesa article is ok. But i feel that they should have gotten more in depth background information that only a codex can provide.

Would any of you agree that they would have been better than vespid? I just feel that GW missed a great oppertunity to expand on the Taus' background. Especially the background on interactions between humans and Tau. How long have Gue' vesa been in the Tau Empire, 200, 300 years? There isn't a sinlge mention in the codex about them (unless i overlooked somewhere where it does cite them. If so forgive me).

Your thoughts:

Keichi246
19-08-2007, 02:51
Actually, I think one of the Games developers mentioned something about this when the codex came out.

The explanation was something to the effect that including humans in the CODEX for the Tau empire had the possibilty of "diluting" the alien feel of them. By not including the humans in the codex, and leaving them as a Chapter approved add in - the basic book is still "all alien", while giving the option to people who really want it.

A secondary opinion is "what do they really provide the Tau that no other codex entries do?" Firepower? Kroot and Fire Warriors do it better. Hand to Hand? ditto...

Also note - for the more recent codexes, the Studio has been truly attempting to make sure all options have minis avaialble for them. Since there are no "Gue'vesa" minis...

So while thier inclusion would have been cool - I can see why they didin't do it...

dr.oetk3r
19-08-2007, 02:54
Sounds like a good reason.

I still think a small background referance would have been good. Like some old guardsmen talking about stabbing some traitorous scum in the face with his machete. Yeh, that'd be sweet...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
19-08-2007, 02:55
Yeah, guardsmen equivalents don't seem like they'd add much to the Tau army. Kroot are already pretty cool as far as cheap infantry go.

killa kan kaus
19-08-2007, 05:36
guardsmen are great and i dont think stat wise vespid were needed (yay ANOTHER 12 inch movement unit).

Horror-Show
19-08-2007, 06:14
I think vespid were brought in as anti marine shock troopers (their guns are AP3 if I remember correctly)

Alexandr Ulyanov
19-08-2007, 06:38
guardsmen are great
No they're not. I have played IG more than any army and the only thing they seem to be good for is adding one more heavy weapon and being meatshields. Human auxiliaries for tau do not carry those heavy weapons, and they are worse meatshields than kroot. So I have basically been wondering why anyone would take them if they were included.



and i dont think stat wise vespid were needed (yay ANOTHER 12 inch movement unit).
Vespids are good for damage control in a tau army. They are extremely fast (12 in move+d6 fleet or can assault after firing) and have T4 and I5, making them more annoying in cc than tau. So, just as the enemy is about to hit your fire warriors with assault marines, just 'lean,' shoot if you don't need the d6 extra move, charge the unit, and thereby buy yourself a couple of phases.

They are also fun to use on vehicles. They can glance/penetrate the back armor of any vehicle that is not a monolith or land raider with their guns.

Bregalad
19-08-2007, 11:46
If you want to play Guard, you may do so. You just have to buy the IG Codex.
If you want to ally them to any other army like Space Marines, DH, WH, Tau, Chaos, or whatever, you may do so with permission of the opponent.

I don't miss Guard rules in my Tau Codex, as I prefer Tau (and Kroot). Humans wouldn't get Tau weapons anyway. I won't even get a Baneblade, as it is an ugly and primitive human vehicle, contradicting Tau strategy and inferior to a Manta or Tiger Shark.

There are so many other Alien races in the Tau Empire, and humans are the least interesting to cover in a new Codex. That is my point of view.

Scythe
19-08-2007, 12:16
Sounds like a good reason.

I still think a small background referance would have been good. Like some old guardsmen talking about stabbing some traitorous scum in the face with his machete. Yeh, that'd be sweet...

The other way round, more likely. Troops never get their asses handed to them in their own codex...:p

Kegluneq
19-08-2007, 14:41
It could be an example of their Traitor special rule (any Imperial army counts them as favoured enemy and always hits on a 3+).

dr.oetk3r
19-08-2007, 14:56
No they're not. I have played IG more than any army and the only thing they seem to be good for is adding one more heavy weapon and being meatshields. Human auxiliaries for tau do not carry those heavy weapons, and they are worse meatshields than kroot. So I have basically been wondering why anyone would take them if they were included.

They really aren't that bad, have you ever even used them in a game?

The real attractiveness of the gue' vesa is that they are the "missing link" between Tau and Kroot. They get more advanced technology than the kroot and are slightly better in CC than firewarriors.

The squad leader can get a marker light (which is rather good). You can also give the squad two pulserifles/pulsecarbines or a mix of the two. So for a cheap squad they aren't completely useless (so what if they have lasguns).

They are good meatshields too, for the greater good human scum mwah ha ha :evilgrin:

Bregalad
19-08-2007, 22:16
Generals using meatshields are a disgrace for the Tau Empire and soon to be sacked. Seems like they were never near an Ethereal.

MrBigMr
19-08-2007, 23:29
No they're not. I have played IG more than any army and the only thing they seem to be good for is adding one more heavy weapon and being meatshields. Human auxiliaries for tau do not carry those heavy weapons, and they are worse meatshields than kroot. So I have basically been wondering why anyone would take them if they were included.
Gue get two pulse weapons, which work fine as "heavy/special" weapons, they have better save than the Kroot and cost less, so why are they worse as meat shields than the Kroot?


Generals using meatshields are a disgrace for the Tau Empire and soon to be sacked. Seems like they were never near an Ethereal.
Better vile xenos meat than pretty tender blue meat, right? You can't argue that the Tau don't tend to treat their 'allies' as second class citizens on some level.


I was going to put two units of Gue (and two Kroot) in my planned Earth Caste combat engineer army, da Worker's Army, comrad. Maybe model some into tank crew and such.

Slaaneshi Slave
19-08-2007, 23:48
Gue get two pulse weapons, which work fine as "heavy/special" weapons, they have better save than the Kroot and cost less, so why are they worse as meat shields than the Kroot?

Neither have an armour save against most armies, and Kroot perform much better in cover and have better weapons. Kroot may also take a pulse weapon.

Jayden63
20-08-2007, 07:21
GW really missed their chance with the Vepids. Had they been given a flamer style weapon at S2 or S3 and still AP3, they could have been useful. This way they could work against horde and against power armor. As it is, they are not a safe bet to take into any unknown situation (like tourniments). The Tau really didn't need another S5 single shot gun, no matter what AP it was).

Bregalad
20-08-2007, 10:22
Better vile xenos meat than pretty tender blue meat, right? You can't argue that the Tau don't tend to treat their 'allies' as second class citizens on some level.

You should know by now, that it is my firm believe that the Tau Empire does not treat their allies as second class (and anybody except perhaps drones as meat shield). It is definitely stated in the 3rd edition designer notes, somewhere in the 4th edition Codex, in BFG rules and specifically for Kroot (who would be used as meatshields by Imperial generals), but there are gamers having a different opinion.

Valueing the life of citizens is certainly an "alien" concept to the human Imperium. That's what I have chosen the Tau for (and added many Xeno allies, but no Gue' vesa).

MrBigMr
20-08-2007, 11:05
You should know by now, that it is my firm believe that the Tau Empire does not treat their allies as second class (and anybody except perhaps drones as meat shield). It is definitely stated in the 3rd edition designer notes, somewhere in the 4th edition Codex, in BFG rules and specifically for Kroot (who would be used as meatshields by Imperial generals), but there are gamers having a different opinion.
I don't mean that the Tau kick their allies around, nor do I believe they're always doing it intentionally, but I can't shake of the fact that the Tau tend to treat all their allies like the Tau have saved them from something. The Tau see themselves as the light (right?) in these dark time, and that alone tends to elevate them above all else.

And isn't it so that all castes are equal, but no one said anything about no aliens. Why is it that aliens are more often servants than masters (where all alien commanders and civil servants)? Why is it that the aliens have to get along with their own stuff, maybe with some boomsticks the Tau have generously granted them? Seems like some colonial thinking to me.
"Give them guns to make them better, but not the big ones so that they wouldn't need us anymore."


Valueing the life of citizens is certainly an "alien" concept to the human Imperium. That's what I have chosen the Tau for (and added many Xeno allies, but no Gue' vesa).
That's just racist.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-08-2007, 11:24
How many Kroot are there with Tau Military rankings? Surely, if they were equal there would be many, but no, there is one. Only a single Kroot with a Tau rank. Tau don't treat their allies as equals, they keep them subservant like the humans who join them, or even control their minds like they do Sting Swarms.

Kelpi
20-08-2007, 11:34
Gue'vesa are getting a lot of Flak in this thread but they do have uses that don't involve being meatshields or sub-par Fire Warrior wannabes.

They are one of the cheapest ways of getting a markerlight. You can place them in well back in some heavy cover with a good overview of the table such as a building rooftop and you have a unit that is as survivable as firewarriors but cheaper and harder to dislodge in CC.

They are harmless enough (in comparison to everything else) that your opponent will ignore them for juicier targets while making your main squads more effective.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-08-2007, 12:55
Vespids make for excellent support troops for Stealth Teams, without taking up another Elites slot.

The speed and hitting power of the unit is pretty much unique to 40k as well. My favourite use is to pick off small enemy squads with the aid of a Marker Light, boosting my chances of hitting. In essence, they are the perfect foil for units like Hnour Guard, flying Tyranid Warriors, and other such small, Jump Pack equipped horros! Like Raptors etc... You just need to make sure you blow them away in one round of shooting, hence the Marker Light. Or two.....

dr.oetk3r
20-08-2007, 16:43
Perfect Tauranny.

Let's face it, life as a gue' vesa is being a slave to an alien empire. You have to stay on your planet. The Tau don't provide you with the same armour and weapons that their fire warriors recieve. They barely trust you with a pulse weapon only after "reeducation."

Some of you have brought up a good point. Why don't they allow Aliens to be more influencial in government? Shouldn't there be a Kroot caste and a Human caste and a (insert here) class?

So no freedom, no equality, no representation.

SECOND CLASS CITIZEN

The markerlights are cheap and you can use a gue' vesa to pin down squads with a pulse carbine. SO GUE' VESA FTW.

Keichi246
20-08-2007, 17:46
Let's face it, life as a gue' vesa is being a slave to an alien empire. You have to stay on your planet. The Tau don't provide you with the same armour and weapons that their fire warriors recieve. They barely trust you with a pulse weapon only after "reeducation."

Some of you have brought up a good point. Why don't they allow Aliens to be more influencial in government? Shouldn't there be a Kroot caste and a Human caste and a (insert here) class?

So no freedom, no equality, no representation.

SECOND CLASS CITIZEN

I think we are mistaking a lack of fluff with intention here...

First. Face it - outside of the human Empire - how much do we know about ANY xenos race's civilian structure beyond the broadest strokes?

Representation? The Gue'vesa humans could have "perfect" representation based on population size, and still be barely a blip on the radar. Considering that they are probably less than 1% of the population of the Tau Empire - it's not like you are going to see a lot of them around. Vespid? Similar story. Their communication issues make putting them in a battlefield command and control role iffy at best. Combine that with a low overall population...

40k codexes deal primarily with the standard warfighting elements of a race. The xenos races simply don't have a large enough percentage of the population of the Tau Empire to make "standardized" options for them in codex outside the specialized units that may include them. Any high ranking officers of non-Tau descent would be exceptional simply due to rarity.

It doesn't HAVE to be "evil intentions" when the simple explanation of "low population percentage" will explain it.

Personally - I've been strongly considering simply finishing the conversion of my Gue'vesa to ALL pulse rifles and then fielding them as a counts as Fire Warrior squad. It's not like the statlines between a guardsman and Fire Warrior are so different. The WS and I difference can simply be explained as Tau training doctrine failing to do much about close combat, while the better Armor save and weapon are purely equipping. That would let me put "Gue'vesa" on the table as part of a multiracial empire without messing with the funky, possibly outdated rules...


How many Kroot are there with Tau Military rankings? Surely, if they were equal there would be many, but no, there is one. Only a single Kroot with a Tau rank. Tau don't treat their allies as equals, they keep them subservant like the humans who join them, or even control their minds like they do Sting Swarms.
SlaneeshiSlave - I still don't think the Communion Helms are mind control. Look at the Vespid social structure; it was very hivelike to begin with, with dedicated tasks assigned to dedicated individuals (Warriors, Drone, Leaders). Then look at the Tau social structure. It's castes - Warriors (Fire, Air), Drones (Earth, Water), Leaders (Ethereal). Notice any similarities? ;)

Then look at the Vespids pre-contact - Starving, barely above the survival margin. Constantly struggling just for enough resources to keep their hives going another day.

Imagine if you were in their shoes (wings?). Aliens show up with amazing technology, resources, etc - but you simply can't commnicate with them. The physiological diferences are just to great. One day, they come up with a helmet that DOES allow you to communicate. And when they do, you learn that: 1) they would like to be friends, 2) have a societal structure VERY similar to your own, and 3) would like to offer citizenship in their Empire - giving you full access to unimaginable resources. No more scraping by...

Would you even slow down before you said "Yes!" ?

Somehow - that scenario is a WHOLE lot more believeable than some Tau scientist somehow coming up with a device that allows them to do mind control on a TOTALLY alien physiology with they they couldn't even communicate with previously. "Enlightened self interest" (aka greed) is an easier explanation and fits the existing facts far better, IMHO...

Bregalad
20-08-2007, 18:19
I don't mean that the Tau kick their allies around, nor do I believe they're always doing it intentionally, but I can't shake of the fact that the Tau tend to treat all their allies like the Tau have saved them from something. The Tau see themselves as the light (right?) in these dark time, and that alone tends to elevate them above all else.

Official Tau philosophy is that freedom, peace and trade is better than brutal tyranny and killing Xenos on sight (see designer notes and BFG rules). And in the 40k universe, this philosophy is rare. Some Imperial planets like Taros (Imperial Armour 3) or the one in the novel "For the Emperor" HAVE the feeling, that they are better off in the Tau Empire because of that.


And isn't it so that all castes are equal, but no one said anything about no aliens. Why is it that aliens are more often servants than masters (where all alien commanders and civil servants)? Why is it that the aliens have to get along with their own stuff, maybe with some boomsticks the Tau have generously granted them? Seems like some colonial thinking to me.
"Give them guns to make them better, but not the big ones so that they wouldn't need us anymore."
1.) The caste system is something Tau specific, as they need it to keep the Tau society from self destruction (Montau). They are not interested in enforcing this system onto others. Allies mostly keep their independence, perhaps Tau help with administration.
2.) Why is it that not all allies of the USA got nuclear bombs for free? Tau has one of the highest developed technology in the universe (and the fastest developing). Most people would not understand it (e.g. Kroot have no vehicles at all, they only understand warp tech because that knowledge was "edible" via a Big Mek). Furthermore resources are limited, and Tau need it for their own purposes. So not giving every alien race some Drones or Hammerheads is not part of some evil plan.


How many Kroot are there with Tau Military rankings? Surely, if they were equal there would be many, but no, there is one. Only a single Kroot with a Tau rank. Tau don't treat their allies as equals, they keep them subservant like the humans who join them, or even control their minds like they do Sting Swarms.

Kroot have limited experience in high tech warfare. Why should they lead a high tech army when Tau can do that better?


Perfect Tauranny.
Let's face it, life as a gue' vesa is being a slave to an alien empire. You have to stay on your planet. The Tau don't provide you with the same armour and weapons that their fire warriors recieve. They barely trust you with a pulse weapon only after "reeducation."

I would suggest that you read the Tau Codex, the Taros campaign (IA3) and the novel "For the Emperor". Your image of the Tau Empire is as far from the official material as can be.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-08-2007, 18:29
Kroot have limited experience in high tech warfare. Why should they lead a high tech army when Tau can do that better?

Nobody has experience in war until they try it. Do you think the fire caste are born combat veterans? Kroot spend as much time in the field as Fire Warriors, and yet it is always Fire Warriors who advance up the ranks, not Kroot.

dybbukdude
20-08-2007, 18:36
Yah my frirend thought that not including gue' vesa was a ripoff

ps what does dont click this link do

dr.oetk3r
20-08-2007, 18:50
Tau: OK humans. Thanks for joining the greater good! You will be fighting along side our firewarriors in todays battle as equals. Thats precisly why we have given you lasguns and poorly built armour. Now take that hill! Don't worry, if you survive you wont have to bury your dead comrades *looks at hungry kroot*

For your information i have read the Tau Codex, the Taros campaign (IA3) and the novel "For the Emperor"

The Tau codex says nothing about Gue' vesa and still doesn't say anything about kroot rankings.

The Taros campaign talks about how the humans HAD to defect to the Tau. It was either "please embrace the wonderful greater good, or we'll blow your brains out." Gee thanks Mr. Tau. I get to fight for your wars as a slave, yippee!

For the Emperor doesn't really provide any meaningful information regarding gue' vesa or anything else in this thread for that matter.

P.S. In IA III there is a small snippet about the Gue' vesa commander on Taros in the Epic section of the book. Even though he is a seniour commander, he isn't entitled to a battlesuit. SNORE

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-08-2007, 19:35
Well, of course he isn't. Tau and Humans have sufficiently different physiologies to require a significant re-design of the suits internal workings. Plus, it's not guaranteed that a Humans reactions would be suitable for Battlesuits, what with Suit psychosis....

CyberShadow
20-08-2007, 19:36
I cant speak for the 40K Codex designer, but for the Epic list we have included the Human Auxiliaries and encountered a few issues with them.

Human troops would divert from the Tau way of war. They would be restricted to the IG profile, and give a CC element to the list that simply couldnt be ignored. In addition, there would be a temptation to simply take large formations of cheap human troops, which would overlap with the game use of Fire Warriors and Kroot.

Keichi246
20-08-2007, 19:41
Nobody has experience in war until they try it. Do you think the fire caste are born combat veterans? Kroot spend as much time in the field as Fire Warriors, and yet it is always Fire Warriors who advance up the ranks, not Kroot.

Well,
I do I have to say this in the Tau's defense about that., Do you REALLY think the Tau haven't noticed the "mercenary" Warspheres wandering out of their territory?

It's not like the Kroot have proven themselves terribly trustworthy. So no - they AREN'T full members of the Empire. They ARE a protectorate though - they get the Tau Navy to support them, in return for the dregs of their military (yes, really - look at a Kroot mercenary warband, and then the "stock" kroot in the Tau Codex.)

Both sides are kinda to blame on that one.

And besides - I have yet to have a kroot squad in my army either survive a battle or avoid running off the board. When the little chickens stay, fight, and survive - then the little buggers will get promoted... :D

dr.oetk3r
20-08-2007, 21:51
Well, of course he isn't. Tau and Humans have sufficiently different physiologies to require a significant re-design of the suits internal workings. Plus, it's not guaranteed that a Humans reactions would be suitable for Battlesuits, what with Suit psychosis....

You are saying that in such an incredibly huge and complex universe where anything is justifiable plot-wise, that you can't give humans Battlesuits based on physiology? The Tau, who are renouned for believing that their technology will help them win the war for the galaxy, will not build suits for humans because they would have to "redisign the suits' interior workings considerably?" Frankly that sounds idiotic. Of course they could give humans Battle suits. Kroot don't get battle suits because they are "savage", Vespid don't get batlesuits because that would take away frm the vespid what they do best: fly around and shoot stuff with radioactive weapons. Humans on the other hand aren't technologically savage and are more than capable of controlling Fighter aircraft and Spaceships all of which are pretty technologically advanced, not to mention fast. Yes there is no other justification for Tau not to give humans battlesuits/advanced Tau tech other than mistrust or GW feeling that it would detract from the "alieness" of the Tau, (which is probably the case).

floyd pinkerton
20-08-2007, 22:56
I use the Gue'vesa sometimes, purely for character, so that I have a unit of each ally in my list. They aren't a particualrly game-winning unit and the rules are basically a copy-and-paste from various places (IG stats, Kroot prices for pulse weapons, etc.)

Also, any of you guys read the bit in the second Last Chancers where Brains gets microwaved when he climbs in the Tau Battlesuit, is this becuase of his different physiology or the most violent car immobiliser ever:D?

Luke
20-08-2007, 23:03
Gue'vesa add that little extra depth to the Tau Empire as a whole. THis is codex Tau Empire, not codex Tau (race/species) yet according to that little book's lists the "empire" encompasses only 2 other races.

The current Tau book is basically the old one with 2 new weapons and lots of added tat.

Bregalad
20-08-2007, 23:55
Tau threads are full of "barroom bully logic" like:
"All Tau force the restrictive caste system on their allies. Damn fascists!
What? They don't? Well, then Xenos are not good enough for the caste system, right? Damn racists!"

Anyway: In IA3 Tau have a trade relationship with the Taros planet, benefitting both Tau and Taros inhabitants. Taros is a small, low tech mining planet and not part of the Tau Empire.
The human Imperium wants to kill the government of Taros for dealing with Xenos. Tau help Taros defend themselves and defeat the Imperial strike force.

So much for "enslaving humans on Taros".

Battle Suits are worn by veteran Fire warriors with long experience in the Tau high tech war machine, as a sign of military progression. Why on earth should a human imperial soldier from a mining planet the Tau TRADE with, get a Crisis Suit?

Kroot have a very low tech civilization. Their favoured fighting style is stabbing with the blades of their gun, basically a knife fight.
How does that qualify them for directing from orbit a force of skimmer tanks, aircrafts, drones, battle suits and the like? How does that qualify them even to use a Hammerhead or Crisis Suit? Even then, they wouldn't use it as it contradicts their fighting style.

Vespids have no direct communication with Tau. Only via a special developed helmet can they speak to the Tau. They have a medium tech level not capable of space flight. They probably don't have vehicles or battle suits, as all mentioned forms of movement are without such devices. Being roughly able to speak is also not sufficient to lead a high tech Tau force.

Again: Tau technology is very advanced, not comprehendable by humans (who still sing to machine spirits), Kroot, Vespids or most other races (Demiurg of course would understand it or are even the source of some Tau technology, but they are not strictly part of the Tau Empire, just allies). Tau warfare depends on high integration and communication with all soldiers and units. It depends on mobility, skimmers, aircraft, drones, stealth technology and many other things that need long training to effectively use them. They are not given lightly to any imperial soldier raising his hand ("hey, I am a traitor, trust me"). Tau also have a special fighting style that tries to avoid cc, static defences and casualties. They know that Kroot, Vespids and humans don't share this mentality or love for the Greater Good. So misuse of Tau equipment would be unavoidable, if given to any Xeno race they meet.

I hope that clears up some things.

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 02:22
Battle Suits are worn by veteran Fire warriors with long experience in the Tau high tech war machine, as a sign of military progression. Why on earth should a human imperial soldier from a mining planet the Tau TRADE with, get a Crisis Suit?

I'm not just talking about the humans on Taros. If you were a human commander who had progressed to the rank of gue' vesa' o, wouldn't you like to get what the Shas' o get right?

As for "humans not understanding t3h technology" you don't have to understand technology to use it.

Scythe
21-08-2007, 09:14
You are saying that in such an incredibly huge and complex universe where anything is justifiable plot-wise, that you can't give humans Battlesuits based on physiology? The Tau, who are renouned for believing that their technology will help them win the war for the galaxy, will not build suits for humans because they would have to "redisign the suits' interior workings considerably?" Frankly that sounds idiotic. Of course they could give humans Battle suits. Kroot don't get battle suits because they are "savage", Vespid don't get batlesuits because that would take away frm the vespid what they do best: fly around and shoot stuff with radioactive weapons. Humans on the other hand aren't technologically savage and are more than capable of controlling Fighter aircraft and Spaceships all of which are pretty technologically advanced, not to mention fast. Yes there is no other justification for Tau not to give humans battlesuits/advanced Tau tech other than mistrust or GW feeling that it would detract from the "alieness" of the Tau, (which is probably the case).

Actually it makes perfect sense. Humans only make up a tiny fraction of the Tau empire. Why waste resources to design a new battlesuit for humans when it will only possibly be used by a handfull of human commanders?

Apart from that, who says they have not? Maybe there is a human traitor around somewhere who got his custom designed battlesuit from his new allies. Seems perfectly possible to me. The established background could only capture a fraction of all the things going on in the 40K universe.

Point remains, wether there are battlesuits for humans or not, there are too few of them to justify game stats or background notice. Doesn't prevent you from saying your Shas'O is a human in a battlesuit tough; seems believeable enough to me.

Lord Malorne
21-08-2007, 09:21
Gue'vesa! what is that....i've only heard of the Gue'ela.

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 09:33
Gue'vesa! what is that....i've only heard of the Gue'ela.
Well, you've heard wrong. Gue'vesa, literally "human helper". Gue'vesa'la - Human Trooper, Gue'vesa'ui - Human Sarge, Etc.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/tau%2Dauxiliaries/

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 10:42
Actually it makes perfect sense. Humans only make up a tiny fraction of the Tau empire. Why waste resources to design a new battlesuit for humans when it will only possibly be used by a handfull of human commanders?

Apart from that, who says they have not? Maybe there is a human traitor around somewhere who got his custom designed battlesuit from his new allies. Seems perfectly possible to me. The established background could only capture a fraction of all the things going on in the 40K universe.

Point remains, wether there are battlesuits for humans or not, there are too few of them to justify game stats or background notice. Doesn't prevent you from saying your Shas'O is a human in a battlesuit tough; seems believeable enough to me.

Don't GW wish to make the Spyder suits on Necromunda Tau design?

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 14:26
Actually it makes perfect sense. Humans only make up a tiny fraction of the Tau empire. Why waste resources to design a new battlesuit for humans when it will only possibly be used by a handfull of human commanders?

In the United States, African-Americans only make up 13% of the total population. Does that mean they shouldn't get equal rights? A black man can become a 5 star general.

So why can't a Gue' Vesa' o' get all the same respect as a Shas' o???

In fact, why can't humans of that ranking command Tau? They are of a higher rank, it doesn't matter what species you are...

If the reason is race then the Tau are racist.

Mr Zephy
21-08-2007, 15:32
13% is a sizeable portion of a population. the human population of the Tau Empire is far smaller.

I don't see why Gue'Vesa'O (the rare ones that do exist) wouldn't get the same rank status as a Shas'O. Tau are a very hierarchical race, and the respect for the rank would outweigh anything else. In practice, however, i'd imagine that Gue'Vesa'O would command the formations they were promoted out of, or they might have their IG rank translated after proving their loyalty. There would be no need for long re-education in the tactics of mobile warfare, the basic IG tactics (mostly) would be used by Gue'Vesa.

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 15:53
The Tau already have suits made for Humans (if you believe new fluff), they have been shipping them to Necromunda for years, so why don't they give them to their human commanders?

Keichi246
21-08-2007, 16:01
In the United States, African-Americans only make up 13% of the total population. Does that mean they shouldn't get equal rights? A black man can become a 5 star general.

So why can't a Gue' Vesa' o' get all the same respect as a Shas' o???

In fact, why can't humans of that ranking command Tau? They are of a higher rank, it doesn't matter what species you are...

If the reason is race then the Tau are racist.

I think you are missing our point, either intentionally or unintentionally...

1) External to fluff: The GW Developer stated that the inclusion of Gue'vesa in the codex was decided against because it diluted the alien nature of the Tau. Hence there are no rules for humans in the codex - from Gue'vesa'la all the way up to Gue'vesa'o. You seem to be pointing to the lack of rules for a human commander for Tau forces as "proof" the Tau are racist - when there aren't even "codex" rules for humans *at all* right now... :D

2) Background wise - we are all basing a lot of theory on "not much information." A "stock" Crisis suit will kill a human pilot (see "Kill Team" and what happens to Brain). I personally believe it was just a really effective security system, but it could have been a core conflict between the design and human physiology. In either case...

To quote the article on Crisis Suit Configurations from White Dwarf (and posted on the GW Web site).


Every Tau warrior aspires to joining a Battlesuit team, and only the finest and most courageous are selected. Despite the Tau's prodigious industrial capacity there are never enough battlesuits to please the Shas'ar'tol. The Ethereal caste is very aware of the trust that is implicit in the issuing of a battlesuit to a warrior. The battlesuit represents considerable power, and in wielding that power, warriors have been known to forget the greater good and become obsessed with their own needs and desires. The example of O'shovah is an extreme one, but milder cases of battlesuit neurosis are more common than is realized. It is for this reason that the Ethereal caste limits the supply of battlesuits to ensure they are only issued to those who have proven themselves worthy. (emphasis added by me.)

I don't think it's an implicit racism of the Tau that you (maybe) don't see Human commanders stomping around in Crisis suits - it's a supply and demand thing. If there are not enough suits suits to go around for the TAU who want them or need them, then they probably don't have enough capacity to design specialty suits for their human assistants. If they did modify a suit for a human - it would probably be very similar to their existing designs to simplify logisitics. Which then leads to the question - How can you tell the race of the pilot inside a crisis suit? Obvious answer - you can't. (Same thing goes for vehicle crews, other than the Piranha)

Any codex just defines basic stats for units; based on training, doctrine and equipment. Basic human and Tau racial stats are similar enough that it would be simple enough to say "I have human troopers filling roles here, here, and here, but since they trained in Tau tactics and are equipped with Tau gear - I'm just using the Tau stats for them."

So where does that leave us.

Some people think the Tau is inherently dictatorial, racist, evil, etc. I'm of the opposite opinion. I think the Tau are making the best of a bad situation, by offering the hand of friendship where possible, but keeping the big stick handy "just in case". Of their allies and "client races" - I belive the Tau do what they can to integrate them into their fighting forces. For the truly alien, or those who by preference prefer to fight in styles that are distinct from the Tau's own (Vespid, Kroot)- they use them as specialty units. For the ones who can and will adapt to the Tau fighting styles - they eventually integrate them into units that are "rules wise" indistinguishable from the standard Tau units.

In *my* interpretation of the Tau, the Gue'vesa are an interim unit - formed only on the new colonies that have human populations. They use lasguns and flak armor simply because it's cheap and avaialble. Once the colony has matured enough, the military forces available convert to mainline Tau military gear and become vitually indistinguishable from a "standard" Tau force, equipment-wise.

You know -I think I WILL finish converting my Gue'vesa to all Pulse rifles.

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 16:01
The Tau already have suits made for Humans (if you believe new fluff), they have been shipping them to Necromunda for years, so why don't they give them to their human commanders?
H&K sells top of the line guns all over the world yet the Germans have to fight with the big and heavy G3 rifles. It's all about the Benjamins baby. They sell that crap to humans, have them kill each other and that way they won't have time to attack the Tau who can just sit back and light cigars with hundred t'ollar bills.

Mr Zephy
21-08-2007, 16:17
Spyrer suits probably aren't very suitable for tactical uses. Human commanders improve the leadership of their troops. What's the point of having them jump around/fly/generally be badass if this means they aren't there to inspire the troops?

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 16:23
Spyrer suits probably aren't very suitable for tactical uses. Human commanders improve the leadership of their troops. What's the point of having them jump around/fly/generally be badass if this means they aren't there to inspire the troops?
Which inspires more, some dude on the radio or superman flying over the landscape? I remember in some thread about using Spyrer models in an IG army that the commander could be an officer by day and superhero by night.

Mr Zephy
21-08-2007, 16:33
Super(tau) already jumps over the landscape. Railguns and airstrikes should inspire the Gue'vesa. These are technologies produced by co-operation and teamwork by the Earth caste. Individualist inspiration bears the taint of Farsight...

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 16:33
What inspires a soldier more? Knowing he has a stable chain of command above him so that he knows that orders will always be coming down to ensure he stays alive to recieve future orders.

If I saw my commander charging an enemy position the first thing through my mind wouldn't be "Oh jolly good, lets all charge it!", it would be ":wtf: is he doing?!" before racing after him to stop him and send him back where he belongs (in a SAFE place).

Mr Zephy
21-08-2007, 16:42
Given the wide universe thing, it could be justified to have a human commander in an adapted suit, if that's your thing, but it doesn't make too much sense.

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 16:45
What inspires a soldier more? Knowing he has a stable chain of command above him so that he knows that orders will always be coming down to ensure he stays alive to recieve future orders.
I have to tell ya, I never felt like that in the army. No one did, apart from the officers and NCOs themselves. It's funny that one platoon managed to performe perfectly well without even NCOs among them. And how happy will you be when you commander sits in a warm room with warm food while your trying to sleep under a tree in a meter of snow and defreeze a can of pea soup to eat.


If I saw my commander charging an enemy position the first thing through my mind wouldn't be "Oh jolly good, lets all charge it!", it would be ":wtf: is he doing?!" before racing after him to stop him and send him back where he belongs (in a SAFE place).
"Men of Tanith! You want to live forever?"

Officers are suppose to inspire the troops. Showing courage is far better than 'having a good chain of comman'. Neither will save you from getting shot, but one will give you far more hope than the other. What good does it do to you if your commander can chat with his boss? I'd rather take someone who gets things done.

Bobtheuseless
21-08-2007, 16:45
If you could field gue'vesa'el's or gue'vesa'o's then a battlesuit would make perfect sense,
but you cant...
I cant see why imperial supporters are calling the tau facist though, bit contradictive isnt it? :P

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 16:55
I have to tell ya, I never felt like that in the army. No one did, apart from the officers and NCOs themselves. It's funny that one platoon managed to performe perfectly well without even NCOs among them. And how happy will you be when you commander sits in a warm room with warm food while your trying to sleep under a tree in a meter of snow and defreeze a can of pea soup to eat.


"Men of Tanith! You want to live forever?"

Officers are suppose to inspire the troops. Showing courage is far better than 'having a good chain of comman'. Neither will save you from getting shot, but one will give you far more hope than the other. What good does it do to you if your commander can chat with his boss? I'd rather take someone who gets things done.

You know as well as I do that if your chain of command is completely eliminated you die. You have no way of knowing where you are supposed to be, where the enemy is, where the attack is currently focused on etc.

Your commander sitting in a warm room might not keep you warm, but it keeps him alive, and he is trying his best to keep you alive. So how can he do that if he is dead? In war you need two types of people. Those who kill the enemy, those who tell the others HOW and WHERE to kill the enemy. They can't do that if they are in the battle themselves.

You're an (ex?) military type, you know this as well as I do.

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 17:12
You know as well as I do that if your chain of command is completely eliminated you die.
Not me, I'm suppose to work without one. There's little use for that behind enemy lines. All I need to know is how to treat the wounded and if it looks important, blow it up.


You're an (ex?) military type, you know this as well as I do.
An officer, especially in the 40K style WW1-2 IG is more than a gear in the machine. Look at all the great generals of the world. They didn't get there by sitting behind a desk. You don't need big rank to listen to the radio for orders from above. It's good for an officer to be seen, even if he's not a good one. Just having the commander nearby gives more motivation than just sitting under that tree and wondering what the hell am I doing here.

When comparing officers I've worked with, those who work and get along with the men are far better than some dick that sit behind desks and pushes papers.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-08-2007, 17:30
I've never been on a battlefield and hope I never will be on one.

I don't think if I had the misfortune to find myself being shot at that I'd find it inspiring to see my commander take a bullet to the face.

Inspiring the men is one thing but you need to be able to do it whilst commanding and you can't do either without a face.

Officers that get on with their men are likely to win battles, officers that organise a war well are likely to ensure the men that won the battle get home to tell stories about it to their kids.

Different personnel have different roles and each is important hopefully soldiers with the right personality and skills are given appropriate roles.

Enough now, back to the "fascist":rolleyes: Tau.

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 17:33
All commanders sit behinds desks, that is their life. As soon as they are promoted out of a regiment to Staff work they become desk jockies. Sure, you get Platoon Commanders, but they don't do any real commanding, all they do is interpret orders from above, but if they deviat from them, they get binned just as fast as a private would. In 40k terms a platoon commander (the little guy, bottom rung of the officer ladder - Leiutenant) would be a normal solder, but the guy giving the orders and making plans (Colonels (sometimes), Brigs, Generals) is your Heroic Senior Officer, your battle suit jocky, your Chapter Master.

As an aside, when I mentioned my commander charging a position, I was not refering to some low ranking officer, I meant the Brig I work with. :p

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 17:51
Sure, you get Platoon Commanders, but they don't do any real commanding, all they do is interpret orders from above, but if they deviat from them, they get binned just as fast as a private would.
It all depends on the army, unit and so forth. Some armies might put great responsibilty on even squad level units, while others hold platoons and even companies in a tight leach. It all depends. Like I said, we had a platoon with no one over the rank of private and they managed fine on their own.

And how can high command blame someone for doing what's best in the situation? They desk jockeys aren't in the field. Things look very different through maps and charts than on the ground. Officers on the spot have great say on how the thing will be played out, as they're the ones doing it. It's not like playing some RTS and clicking your troops to go one way via satellite link.


In 40k terms a platoon commander (the little guy, bottom rung of the officer ladder - Leiutenant) would be a normal solder, but the guy giving the orders and making plans (Colonels (sometimes), Brigs, Generals) is your Heroic Senior Officer, your battle suit jocky, your Chapter Master.
In some armies a lieutenant is pretty far up the ladded. And like I said, if the officer in charge isn't there, the responsibility falls on the one that is. You can't lead an attack from a bunker 500 miles away. You can process data, but it's the ones over there in the trenches that decide what to do about it.


And when it comes to 40K, the boss is the first one to go over the top. Fully kitted SM command squad isn't for sitting behind and commanding via the comms. He's the first one to dig his sword into alien flesh. Apart from cheap ass IG comman, pretty much every else HQ in the game is for kicking ass and not just giving orders from afar. And even IG command squad can kick ass, when properly kitted. Not well, but it can.


Enough now, back to the "fascist":rolleyes: Tau.
You're right. In all this bickering we lost the sight of the bigger picture, the blue bastards to the east.

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 17:59
13% is a sizeable portion of a population. the human population of the Tau Empire is far smaller.

I don't see why Gue'Vesa'O (the rare ones that do exist) wouldn't get the same rank status as a Shas'O. Tau are a very hierarchical race, and the respect for the rank would outweigh anything else. In practice, however, i'd imagine that Gue'Vesa'O would command the formations they were promoted out of, or they might have their IG rank translated after proving their loyalty. There would be no need for long re-education in the tactics of mobile warfare, the basic IG tactics (mostly) would be used by Gue'Vesa.

So i undertand that you are saying that IG guard commanders only command Human forces? Why not Tau? Gue' Vesa aren't Imperial Guard. Therefore they have a completely different way of fighting. They are in the Tau military. Thus they fight like Tau. Hence the Gue' Vesa' O will know how Tau fight. Therefore since he knows how the Tau army fights he can command Tau. If you are saying Gue' Vesa' O can only command Humans then you are saying that they can't command Tau. Meanwhile Tau commanders have complete control over all aspects of the Tau military. So Even though the Gue'vesa'o is a commander, he is still subordinate to the Tau commanders.

sencond class citizen



1) External to Fluff: The GW Developer stated that the inclusion of Gue'vesa in the codex was decided against because it diluted the alien nature of the Tau. Hence there are no rules for humans in the codex - from Gue'vesa'la all the way up to Gue'vesa'o. You seem to be pointing to the lack of rules for a human commander for Tau forces as "proof" the Tau are racist - when there aren't even "codex" rules for humans *at all* right now...

All i said was that it was unfair that human commanders weren't entitled to the same level of technology/respect as ethnic Tau commanders. I also said that it was unfair that humans who are part of the fire caste and who fight along-side firewarriors aren't entitled to carapace armour and pulse rifles. Instaed they are given sub-standard flak armour and lasguns. I then said that humans were capable of fielding pulse weaponry because they weren't like the kroot/vespid and had displayed technological comprehension. So there was no reason for the Tau not to give humans these weapons because it's not like they are filling a tactical niche with their substandard weaponry as it is. We know Gue'vesa don't get carapace armour and full-squad pulse weaponry because there are rules for them. Read my posts next time...



Some people think the Tau is inherently dictatorial, racist, evil, etc. I'm of the opposite opinion. I think the Tau are making the best of a bad situation, by offering the hand of friendship where possible, but keeping the big stick handy "just in case". Of their allies and "client races" - I belive the Tau do what they can to integrate them into their fighting forces. For the truly alien, or those who by preference prefer to fight in styles that are distinct from the Tau's own (Vespid, Kroot)- they use them as specialty units. For the ones who can and will adapt to the Tau fighting styles - they eventually integrate them into units that are "rules wise" indistinguishable from the standard Tau units.

While this is plausible there is no background information to support that "For the ones who can and will adapt to the Tau fighting styles - they eventually integrate them... [into] standard Tau units."


All commanders sit behinds desks, that is their life. As soon as they are promoted out of a regiment to Staff work they become desk jockies. Sure, you get Platoon Commanders, but they don't do any real commanding, all they do is interpret orders from above, but if they deviat from them, they get binned just as fast as a private would. In 40K terms a platoon commander (the little guy, bottom rung of the officer ladder - Leiutenant) would be a normal solder, but the guy giving the orders and making plans (Colonels (sometimes), Brigs, Generals) is your Heroic Senior Officer, your battle suit jocky, your Chapter Master.

Tell that to Lord Solar Macharius' face...

Bregalad
21-08-2007, 18:13
In the United States, African-Americans only make up 13% of the total population. Does that mean they shouldn't get equal rights? A black man can become a 5 star general.
So why can't a Gue' Vesa' o' get all the same respect as a Shas' o???
In fact, why can't humans of that ranking command Tau? They are of a higher rank, it doesn't matter what species you are...
If the reason is race then the Tau are racist.

Kroot, Vespids and some humans are ALLIES of the Tau, so you should ask, why there is no French General leading the US army.
Or, with respect to the cultural differences within the Tau Empire (and USA being befriended with Brazil):
Why is there no traditional Yanomami leading the next US high tech war?

It is still a Tau army. In the Tau Empire, there are different ally armies mainly used to defend their planet, if they can. Sometimes, units join a Tau army, but it is still a Tau army then. I know of no other army within the Tau Empire, that is on the same level technologywise or quantitywise with the Tau army (Demiurg not being part of the Empire).

Edit: Where is the source for Tau selling suits to Necromunda (isn't that an Imperial planet?).
And are Spyrers not close combat specialists and so anathema for Tau?

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 18:24
Kroot, Vespids and some humans are ALLIES of the Tau, so you should ask, why there is no French General leading the US army.

No, they aren't allies. They are in the Empire. They are all in the same entity. If the Tau could have alliances then why would they bother Absorbing human worlds into the Empire. In fact, why would they want to tear down the "fractured Imperium" when they could just have an alliance?

France and Brazil are not part of the US army. The Imperium is not part of the Tau army, it's the same thing!


Or, with respect to the cultural differences within the Tau Empire (and USA being befriended with Brazil):
Why is there no traditional Yanomami leading the next US high tech war?

Because the Yanomami aren't in the US ARMY! Meanwhile humans are in the Tau army and know Tau strategy.


It is still a Tau army. In the Tau Empire, there are different ally armies mainly used to defend their planet, if they can. Sometimes, units join a Tau army, but it is still a Tau army then. I know of no other army within the Tau Empire, that is on the same level technologywise or quantitywise with the Tau army (Demiurg not being part of the Empire).

The Tau Empire only has one army comprised of many races. If the Tau were going to have an alliance with humans they would have allied with the Imperium. The Tau are not a fedration of equals. They are not an "alliance," because when you say alliance you are implying that the're seperate nations with their own commanders and governments. This is not the case.They are all part of the Empire and are subserviant to the Tau commanders and Ethereals.


Edit: Where is the source for Tau selling suits to Necromunda (isn't that an Imperial planet?).
And are Spyrers not close combat specialists and so anathema for Tau?

Kroot are close combat specialists and the Tau use them...

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 18:28
The British Army has Fijians with rank, Canadians with rank, Indians with rank, even yanks with rank. If the T'au are so open, why aren't they the same?

MrBigMr
21-08-2007, 18:31
Kroot, Vespids and some humans are ALLIES of the Tau, so you should ask, why there is no French General leading the US army.
Maybe because the Tau Empire isn't realy like US and it's allies, but more like the EU or Starflee from Star Trek. In Star Trek you have Klingons and Vulkans and other freaks commanding starships and troops. And in EU operations won't some armed forces be under the command of an officer from another country?

It is 'Tau Empire' after all, not 'Tau feat. Some Aliens' or 'Tau, Kroot, Human, Vespid & Co.'


And are Spyrers not close combat specialists and so anathema for Tau?
Could it be that's why they're sold to other? I mean, just because you don't use something doesn't mean you can't make it and sell it forwards. Like not all game developers play their own games or actors go see their own movie. Do all who make drugs use them?

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 18:33
Because do are hell-bent on unifying everyone into their Empire instaed of having healthy relationships with the Imperium etc.




Maybe because the Tau Empire isn't realy like US and it's allies, but more like the EU or Starflee from Star Trek. In Star Trek you have Klingons and Vulkans and other freaks commanding starships and troops. And in EU operations won't some armed forces be under the command of an officer from another country?

It is 'Tau Empire' after all, not 'Tau feat. Some Aliens' or 'Tau, Kroot, Human, Vespid & Co.'

Could it be that's why they're sold to other? I mean, just because you don't use something doesn't mean you can't make it and sell it forwards. Like not all game developers play their own games or actors go see their own movie. Do all who make drugs use them?

Quoted for truth

Keichi246
21-08-2007, 18:46
Gue' Vesa aren't Imperial Guard. Therefore they have a completely different way of fighting. They are in the Tau military. Thus they fight like Tau. Hence the Gue' Vesa' O will know how Tau fight. Therefore since he knows how the Tau army fights he can command Tau. If you are saying Gue' Vesa' O can only command Humans then you are saying that they can't command Tau. Meanwhile Tau commanders have complete control over all aspects of the Tau military. So Even though the Gue'vesa'o is a commander, he is still subordinate to the Tau commanders.

You are stretching the point again. One - we don't know if there ARE Gue'vesa'o - and we don't know what the exact performance you have to provide to become a Shas'O to begin with. We simply don't have sufficient information on this topic. We don't know how many humans ARE Gue'vesa, either. Finally, we don't know the promotion policies of the Tau. We have an idea - based on information from the first codex. 4 years training, trial. 4 years Shas'la, trial, 4 years Shas'ui (and the beginnings of specialization). At the end of that 12th year - they MAY get assigned to a battlesuit team, after which they are on the tracks for Shas'el and eventually Shas'O. It's a really short promotion track, but every step above Shas'ui is a doozy.

Due to a severe lack of informaiton - all we are doing is arguing opinions, and grasping at straws to back them up. That being said... :D

dr.oetk3r - You are *presuming* racism - when there are many other valid explanations as well. If the human population in the Tau Empire is extremely low (which it is), then by percentage and statistics - the number of "human" officers above Shas'ui will also be correspondingly low. For every Gue'vesa team - there are probably hundreds of Fire Warrior teams. Simple rarity would keep them from being mentioned - especially returning to the thought that the Games Developers wanted to downplay the human influence in the Codex.


All i said was that it was unfair that human commanders weren't entitled to the same level of technology/respect as ethnic Tau commanders. I also said that it was unfair that humans who are part of the fire caste and who fight along-side firewarriors aren't entitled to carapace armour and pulse rifles. Instaed they are given sub-standard flak armour and lasguns. I then said that humans were capable of fielding pulse weaponry because they weren't like the kroot/vespid and had displayed technological comprehension. So there was no reason for the Tau not to give humans these weapons because it's not like they are filling a tactical niche with their substandard weaponry as it is. We know Gue'vesa don't get carapace armour and full-squad pulse weaponry because there are rules for them. Read my posts next time...

I DID read your posts - that's why I'm responding to them.
However - the same article that produces rules for the Gue'vesa ALSO explains their equipment...


Those Humans who have joined the Tau empire have been provided with the technology required to prevail on the Tau frontier. These Humans have limited production capabilities that allow them to construct equipment ranging from simple farming tools to a copy of the standard-issue Imperial lasgun. In times of war, the Tau allow the Gue’vesa access to more advanced weaponry such as pulse rifles and carbines and other, more specialized equipment.

The "Stock" Gue'vesa from the article is actually closer to a militia than an organized fighting unit. They are colonists on the fringe of the Frontier - not professional soldier of the Fire Caste. That's why they are called Auxiliaries. :D


While this is plausible there is no background information to support that "For the ones who can and will adapt to the Tau fighting styles - they eventually integrate them... [into] standard Tau units."

Yeah - but it makes sense and is internally consistent; and there is about as much proof of this as there is of intense racism among the Tau holding down the human warriors. You really CAN'T tell who/what's inside a battlesuit. Gamewise - the core stats for a Human and a Fire Warrior are virtually identical. So why not just say "hey - some of the humans on the better colony worlds have integrated to the point that they can provide Fire Warrior class troops, in units that are equipped, trained, and otherwise identical to Fire caste units."

Heck - it has fewer fluff problems than most of the "Chaos tainted" Tau army ideas I've seen floated... ;)

Kegluneq
21-08-2007, 18:52
Edit: Where is the source for Tau selling suits to Necromunda (isn't that an Imperial planet?).
And are Spyrers not close combat specialists and so anathema for Tau?
It was made explicitly clear in the old Tau codex in two pieces of fluff (the language guide and a Imperial commentary) that Necromunda suits were of Tau origin, and that their names were only slightly different to the Tau language equivalents. The flying Spyrer suit, for instance, had a name that meant 'winged one' in Tau, a phrase that is described as being used to honour skilled Air Caste members. The other suits had names in Tau that meant Spider, Mighty One and Mirror.

In the latest codex, the fluff was changed to remove this link entirely. The paragraph in the commentary that described the Necromundan use of Tau technology - and the security threat it entailed - was clipped from an otherwise unchanged section, and the phrase list was replaced with a simple alphabet. It's possible that this was one retcon too far, and in hindsight it is obvious that not only are Spyrer suits completely untau in execution, they're also probably far older than the Tau themselves, and possibly more complex
than most of their own battlesuit designs.

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 18:56
You are stretching the point again. One - we don't know if there ARE Gue'vesa'o - and we don't know what the exact performance you have to provide to become a Shas'O to begin with. We simply don't have sufficient information on this topic. We don't know how many humans ARE Gue'vesa, either. Finally, we don't know the promotion policies of the Tau. We have an idea - based on information from the first codex. 4 years training, trial. 4 years Shas'la, trial, 4 years Shas'ui (and the beginnings of specialization). At the end of that 12th year - they MAY get assigned to a battlesuit team, after which they are on the tracks for Shas'el and eventually Shas'O. It's a really short promotion track, but every step above Shas'ui is a doozy.
Due to a severe lack of informaiton - all we are doing is arguing opinions, and grasping at straws to back them up. That being said...


Uhhh, They do exist. Read the IAIII: Taros campaign.

Wait you had all these arguments with me over something you didn't think existed?



dr.oetk3r - You are *presuming* racism - when there are many other valid explanations as well. If the human population in the Tau Empire is extremely low (which it is), then by percentage and statistics - the number of "human" officers above Shas'ui will also be correspondingly low. For every Gue'vesa team - there are probably hundreds of Fire Warrior teams. Simple rarity would keep them from being mentioned - especially returning to the thought that the Games Developers wanted to downplay the human influence in the Codex.

So just because the population is extremely low justifies the fact that they get substandard weaponry and are subjects to the Ethereals first, humans second?

I'm fine with the whole "Alien Codex" thing. I just think Gue' vesa are cool and i thought it would have been nice if they were included in the codex with some more background information.



I DID read your posts - that's why I'm responding to them.
However - the same article that produces rules for the Gue'vesa ALSO explains their equipment...

Yes, but that was when the Gue' vesa were first founded after the damocles crusade. How long has it been since then? 200, 300 years? Surely by now they are "trutworthy" enough to be able to use the same technology as the rest of the Tau Empire?

Worsle
21-08-2007, 19:00
Because do are hell-bent on unifying everyone into their Empire instaed of having healthy relationships with the Imperium etc.

How do xenos have a healthy relationship with the Imperium? Really the imperium is not some thing you have friendly relationships with the imperium of man you join them or you die and in the Tau's case they don't even get the first option. The Tau are a lot more like a modern nation than any other race out there, sure they have colonial instincts but it is at its heart good natured.

Edit. Given what they Tau have seen of humans in the shape of the imperium or chaos why should they trust us? Humans are very new members of the empire I see no reason for them to trust and start handing out their battle suits that are kept to a limited supply among them selves.

Slaaneshi Slave
21-08-2007, 19:10
Eldar have a more or less Healthy relationship, as to that race which replaced Squats. There is also that alien monkey race who makes the digitel weapons. The Imperium only has a kill on sight policy if it thinks it can't exploit the aliens.

Keichi246
21-08-2007, 19:15
Uhhh, They do exist. Read the IAIII: Taros campaign.

Wait you had all these arguments with me over something you didn't think existed?

Well - to be honest - It's been a while since I read the Taros Campaign... :D
I wasn't sure they existed, and frankly, it doesn't really change MY position if they exist or not...


So just because the population is extremely low justifies the fact that they get substandard weaponry and are subjects to the Ethereals first, humans second?

No - it just justifies why haven't heard much about them. And their "frontier" status explains why they have equipment they already know how to use and support.


I'm fine with the whole "Alien Codex" thing. I just think Gue' vesa are cool and i thought it would have been nice if they were included in the codex with some more background information.

True enough. I can't argue with the Games Designer's decisions to leave them out though. I can see their point...


Yes, but that was when the Gue' vesa were first founded after the damocles crusade. How long has it been since then? 200, 300 years? Surely by now they are "trutworthy" enough to be able to use the same technology as the rest of the Tau Empire?

And that's my position. The initial Gue'vesa that were acquired post Damaocles Crusade HAVE been integrated... fully. They are no longer distinct units of Auxilaries - they are simply "Fire Warrior team 3 - who require different boots and slightly different helmets" or "Driver of Devilfish 102".

Meanwhile - as new human populations are absorbed - they start with contingents of militia (Gue'vesa) and as the colony matures - they move into full integration.

Now I gotta get home and find the references to the Gue'vesa'o in the Taros Campaign...

dr.oetk3r
21-08-2007, 19:28
And that's my position. The initial Gue'vesa that were acquired post Damaocles Crusade HAVE been integrated... fully. They are no longer distinct units of Auxilaries - they are simply "Fire Warrior team 3 - who require different boots and slightly different helmets" or "Driver of Devilfish 102".

Which i think is awesome and very plausible. But it is not good for argument purpouses because it is not a fact and is just wishful thinking.

At the End of the day, it's either you like Tau, or you don't.

This is some fan-fiction that pretty much sums up my feelings towards the Gue' vesa
http://www.sanctum.com/surfers/btech/guevesala.htm

Keichi246
21-08-2007, 20:21
Which i think is awesome and very plausible. But it is not good for argument purpouses because it is not a fact and is just wishful thinking.

At the End of the day, it's either you like Tau, or you don't.

This is some fan-fiction that pretty much sums up my feelings towards the Gue' vesa
http://www.sanctum.com/surfers/btech/guevesala.htm

Alas - That is the problem.
You say Po-tay-to, I say Po-tah-toe.

"Slaves with lasguns" has remarkably little supporting evidence either - exactly one article that provides very little information except for the same evidence that says "frontier colony" - where cheap/effiecent weapons make sense. And it says they are given more specialized gear later...

Other sources indicate humans live quite happily under Tau rule, as members of the Empire. (Codices, BFG: Armada, For the Emperor, Taros campaign). So which is right?

It could actually be both. The initial Gue'vesa could be merely a resource to be expended while they earn the Tau's trust. God knows the humans have been tricksy before. That unit sounds a LOT like the author you quoted... That author chose to accept "slaves with lasguns".

Later on, the humans could begin to get trained in Tau techniques, equipment. etc. And then it would work like my idea.

Overall - it really does depend on how you view the Tau. I see the Tau as rational beings in a universe gone mad. I see (most of) them actually believing in "For the Greater Good"; where people fufill their role in society, for the benefit of society. Where even if you are assigned a caste - there is still upward mobility within that caste, as well as a variety of jobs to perform. Where they don't hate the xenos at first sight, and instead try to find a method of co-existence.

Yes - they can and will do evil acts. Exterminatus, slave camps (from the Taros campaign and the end of DoW), and even dropping big rocks on military targets... ( :angel: ). But there are times that ANYONE can be forced into evil actions - and the 40k universe is full of that kind of crud...

I just don't think casual racism is part of it.

Mr Zephy
21-08-2007, 22:14
to be honest, if you are not racist towards kroot, humans pose no problem.

Bregalad
22-08-2007, 00:44
Yes - they can and will do evil acts. Exterminatus, slave camps (from the Taros campaign and the end of DoW), and even dropping big rocks on military targets... ( :angel: ).

Absolutely no slave camps on Taros (how did you get that idea :wtf:).
Only prisoner camps for the fanatic enemies of the Tau in DoW.
I hate it when people invent such things and hope that noone has read the sources. Seems to be unavoidable in Tau threads though.:rolleyes:

Lainer
22-08-2007, 01:12
Several times in this thread people have claimed the humans only get sub-standard weapons from the Tau and that proves they are slaves/a subclass in the Tau empire.

Do the Tau really manufacture lasguns? Or human carapac armour? I think the reason for humans to use lasguns is simple. Those are the weapons humans have used for tousands of years. Planetary defense forces and imperial guard soldiers who have joined the tau empire would have brought their weapons with them.

Nowhere in the fluff have I seen that non-tau are threated worse than tau. We must remember that the tau don't think like us. Their "greater good" still hasn't been explained fully in my opinion.

dr.oetk3r
22-08-2007, 04:03
"Slaves with lasguns" has remarkably little supporting evidence either - exactly one article that provides very little information except for the same evidence that says "frontier colony" - where cheap/effiecent weapons make sense. And it says they are given more specialized gear later...

I know, it's just fan-fiction fan-fiction... I just like it. I'm not using it to prove a point.



Do the Tau really manufacture lasguns? Or human carapac armour? I think the reason for humans to use lasguns is simple. Those are the weapons humans have used for tousands of years. Planetary defense forces and imperial guard soldiers who have joined the tau empire would have brought their weapons with them.

Humans used bows and swords for thousands of years, but do we use them in our modern militaries? Do the Tau think the humans are incapable of fielding pule weaponry without going to "re-education" camps?

"Look humans, this is a GUN. Can you say gun? That's right, G-U-N. VERY GOOD! *applauds*"

Keichi246
22-08-2007, 06:08
Absolutely no slave camps on Taros (how did you get that idea :wtf:).
Only prisoner camps for the fanatic enemies of the Tau in DoW.
I hate it when people invent such things and hope that noone has read the sources. Seems to be unavoidable in Tau threads though.:rolleyes:

Err - I beg to differ regarding Taros campaign...

Page 146, second column, First paragraph of Epilogue
The 17th and 89th Tallarn regiments had ceased to exist as coherent forces during the retreat, most of their men were now Tau captives, condemned to labour in Taro's mines for the Greater Good.

That is pretty much the definition of slave camps Bregalad. Yes, they ARE enemies of the Greater Good, but fanatical? Most IG aren't THAT gung ho...

Of course - the Imperium would've just expended a lasgun shot on each one - or simply not bothered to take prisoners and let the desert take them...


BTW - dr.oetk3r: Where in the Taros campaign is there a reference to a Gue'vesa'o? The absolute highest rank I've seen is in the book gue'vesa'ui - as referenced on pages 281 and 286...

Mr Zephy
22-08-2007, 21:16
"Look humans, this is a GUN. Can you say gun? That's right, G-U-N. VERY GOOD! *applauds*"

"Right, now plug the gun into your helmet. What, you mean your helmet doesn't have a plug? Er, take this one. Now call up the targeting menu. You don't read tau? damn."

And so on and so forth. Tau technology is not just powerful guns, it's about actual network integration and computer aides for the user.

Slaaneshi Slave
22-08-2007, 21:21
If the Tau use targeting aides then they must be really bad shots without them, as my friends Tau can't hit a naked Cannoness doing the two step in the middle of an open battlefield.

Jaeger48
22-08-2007, 22:59
Just like Kroot can't benefit from markerlight hits...

The Orange
23-08-2007, 02:25
i feel that they should have gotten more in depth background information that only a codex can provide.
I agree, but the whole Tau codex was lacking in fluff, IMO.



Would any of you agree that they would have been better than vespid?

Not really, I very much prefer the Vespids to the Human Aux. as a needed table top unit. The only reason I'd ever really include Human Aux. in my army would be either to make a fluffy army, of for suicidal EMP troops :evilgrin:.


GW really missed their chance with the Vepids. Had they been given a flamer style weapon at S2 or S3 and still AP3, they could have been useful.
Meh, I prefer the ability to make them more dangerous with marklights. S2-3 IMO would make them useless.



The Tau really didn't need another S5 single shot gun, no matter what AP it was).
Nah, but they sure as heck need AP3 weapons.


How many Kroot are there with Tau Military rankings? Surely, if they were equal there would be many, but no, there is one.

Maybe that's because the Kroot are mercenaries instead of troops that are truly integrated and part of the Tau Military.


or even control their minds like they do Sting Swarms.
Thats only speculation (whistles innocently).



So why can't a Gue' Vesa' o' get all the same respect as a Shas' o???

Maybe because most species aren't directly integrated into the Tau military, but rather work along side them, IIRC. I.E. you don't see mixed xenos squads because their all kept separate (you probably could call it raciest). Some xenos military units (Kroot Vespids, etc.) will travel along with a Tau cadre. But the cadre (a basic unit of the Tau military) is a Tau dominated organization. And IIRC humans are only really ever outfitted for self defense. Their not part of the main Tau fleets that move from system to system patrolling, conquering, etc.


Super(tau) already jumps over the landscape. Railguns and airstrikes should inspire the Gue'vesa. These are technologies produced by co-operation and teamwork by the Earth caste. Individualist inspiration bears the taint of Farsight...
Interesting insight.

dr.oetk3r
23-08-2007, 03:49
I just thought of something really interesting...

Tau live for only 40 years on average yes? So i imagine that they would become a seniour commander relatively quickly (in human terms).

So lets say your average human lives to be 300. Imagine the experiance they would gain in the Tau way of war. Living that long would provide you with an in depth knowledge of Tau battelfield tactics. Hell, wouldn't it bebetter if humans commanded?

Don't compare Gue' vesa commanders to IG commanders. They use completely different tactics. An experianced guard commander who has hundreds of years of battlefield experiance might still throw his men into a meatgrinder if he feels it will meet the objectives of the battle. A Gue' vesa commander wouldn't do this because he has been taught the Tau way of war which does not promote meatshielding and/or meat grinding.

The Orange
23-08-2007, 04:39
Tau live for only 40 years on average yes?
Maybe, IIRC that was a small footnote in the first codex so who knows how cannon that is anymore.



So lets say your average human lives to be 300.
Ha, I really doubt that. Humans in the Imperium use technology to extend their life span, and that tech would be limited to only the most powerful individuals (Inquisitors, planetary governors, etc.). The life of the average human in the meat grinder that is the Imperium would be , I imagine, relatively short. And they probably would not have access to such equipment in the Tau Empire (otherwise the Tau would be using it).



Imagine the experience they would gain in the Tau way of war. Living that long would provide you with an in depth knowledge of Tau battlefield tactics. Hell, wouldn't it bebetter if humans commanded?
Thats all assuming the Tau actually thought them their way of war. Notice how you never see any Humans among the Tau Fire Warrior teams? They don't quite work hand in hand. I'd imagine that most humans under the Tau Empire are just colonist and those that do take part in the military are more like a local PDF and not much more. Being the Tau Empires defenders is something of an honor to the Fire Caste and I don't think it's something they share readily. IIRC the Ethereals had to force them to start using more Aux. troops as their simply isn't enough Fire Caste warriors to go around.


A Gue' vesa commander wouldn't do this because he has been taught the Tau way of war which does not promote meatshielding and/or meat grinding.
Have they. Admitidly I haven't read the Taros book, but I don't really see the Tau actually taking in the Humans into their rank in file. Rather I'd think they be used as a front line force which the Tau (cadres) work around. The humans would learn a little about the Tau way of War. But without being in the main structures of the Command tree, and without being able to see/witness how all the Tau unit operate together, I don't really think they'd learn that much about the Tau way of War.

Khaine's Messenger
23-08-2007, 05:02
Does anyone have a rational explanation as to why Gue' vesa were not included in the Tau codex?

It would have been too much work to integrate them into the Tau codex, in my opinion. The sheer variety of what we know about humans in 40k would be chafed under inclusion in the Tau codex, and their presence could quickly spiral out of control and become just as convoluted as the Kroot unit(s) used to be. Sure, the Vespid were pretty straight-forward, but they were new and accounted for less than a page's worth of background. I actually felt a little upset that the Vespid were being vaunted as representing "variety" when all I saw was a lonely orphan of a unit with no other aim than to create the impression of "variety" or "cool factor" much like various units in the Inquisition armylists. I've got over it, but I still sometimes can't shake the feeling.


I just feel that GW missed a great oppertunity to expand on the Taus' background. Especially the background on interactions between humans and Tau.

Well, while it is a stated policy that background is designed with a "support the game first" attitude, I think such background could have been included in the Tau codex without including the gue'vesa themselves...or at least suggestions on how to construct such a force, as GW has sprinkled over paper and 'net sources.