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Deafwing
20-08-2007, 21:20
repainting all my Iron warrior models to be World Eaters. That way instead of 2 good-sized armies, I'd have one really big one. It'd add the option of 3 obliterators, a squad of raptors and a lot of regular marines to my force. And I might even get away with claiming the Basilisk as a Vindicator.

But what do you guys think about this? Its a heck of a lot of work, would it be worthwhile?

Deafwing.

E-Dog
20-08-2007, 21:39
I have a unit/two tanks painted in the IW sceme and after hearing about the new codex(no IW:wtf:) thought about repainting them, but decided to stay loyal. My vote is to leave 'em as is. Maybe play one big army made up of two factions. Put your energy into adding new units, coversions,etc.

My two cents.
~E

Ivan Stupidor
20-08-2007, 21:51
Given the way they've been showing off the armies in WD (a variety of paint schemes/armies mixed in one list), there's really no reason to re-paint - like E-Dog said, you have two factions in one big army. Make up a reason why your World Eaters are tagging along with the Iron Warriors (something along the lines of "to kill stuff"), and away you go.

Deafwing
21-08-2007, 05:45
Thanks guys, that's a really good point, although I might still repaint the raptors because of the icon they'll likely end up getting...and stripping metals isn't that hard.

Apocalypse is sure to be interesting...carrying 6k points of chaos is gonna be heavy/akward!

Hellebore
21-08-2007, 05:53
Well, I don't see why you would do that. The removed craftworld specific lists from the Eldar codex and no one started painting their Ulthwe guardians red...

But do whatever you want. Personally I actually enjoy the STORY so the rules that are used to play the story are less important.

I know that it's Ulthwe fighting Black Legion, I don't need an extra point of BS or a webway portal to tell...


Hellebore

Vedar
21-08-2007, 06:18
I was thinking of the same thing. Though it would be a lot of work. I'm going to stick to my guns. Really since IW are undivided they can choose whatever mark they want to put on there troops. I don't think they have to be red to get one more attack. I got some new berserkers that will be red and some death guard that will be green, but the Iron Warriors are staying Iron.

grizzly ruin
21-08-2007, 06:32
I know that it's Ulthwe fighting Black Legion, I don't need an extra point of BS or a webway portal to tell...

What does that even have to do with the OP?

:rolleyes:



Given the way they've been showing off the armies in WD (a variety of paint schemes/armies mixed in one list), there's really no reason to re-paint - like E-Dog said, you have two factions in one big army. Make up a reason why your World Eaters are tagging along with the Iron Warriors (something along the lines of "to kill stuff"), and away you go.

I'll toss in a third vote for that.

Just use them all together.

BDJV
21-08-2007, 06:51
What does that even have to do with the OP?


:rolleyes: He's sayin' you don't need special rules to play a themed army.

Defcon
21-08-2007, 07:00
He's sayin' you don't need special rules to play a themed army.

Which really makes sense, because the Iron Warriors list didn't really play like you would have to imagine the Iron Warriors operate at all. How does having another Basilisk and some obliterators help in a siege? When you bust down that wall... how did the Iron Warriors list of the previous codex actually take a city?

Occulto
21-08-2007, 07:36
When you bust down that wall... how did the Iron Warriors list of the previous codex actually take a city?

He he. At least they could bust down a wall.

Judging by some people's idea of fluff, Khorneate troops have to run at the gates with hatchets and nothing else. ;)

In response to Deafwing's original post. Repaint the Iron Warriors! Revel in the joy of playing a Khorne army that's different.

Chaos Undivided
21-08-2007, 10:13
He he. At least they could bust down a wall.

Judging by some people's idea of fluff, Khorneate troops have to run at the gates with hatchets and nothing else. ;)

In response to Deafwing's original post. Repaint the Iron Warriors! Revel in the joy of playing a Khorne army that's different.


I personally disagree and think the thread starter should stick with what he has got, a WE/IW coalition is uber fluffy after all.

To the above poster WE's are close combat orientated shock troops whether you like it or not, there are countless GW fluff references that state that the WE have no concept of tactical theorys whatsoever and simply are a bunch of raving loonies hell bent on getting close and personal and nothing else.

Also people peddling this guff that a force cant be successfull being close combat orientated only are talking crap, nobody ever heard of the scotish highland clans? They did with great success exactly what the WE's do, fire off the few guns they have got, wait for the enemy to respond fire and charge like nutters.

This translates in the 40k universe to an orbital bombardment followed by en mass desendence to a planets surface.

The only big guns you will see in a WE's force are short range heavy balisticks (cannons of khorne and the like) for knocking holes in fortifications so the lads can pour in through the cracks and cut up whatevers inside and even these i see as being abandoned once they have served their purpose.

The World Eaters are also by far the most fractured of the founding legions and very rarely go to battle on their own often allying themselves with another chaos force which can provide heavy support, the iron warriors being a perfect example.

The two complement each other very well so stick with what you have got i say.

Hellebore
21-08-2007, 10:38
:rolleyes: He's sayin' you don't need special rules to play a themed army.

BDJV is indeed wise, and his comprehension skills are beyond mortal...er... comprehension:cool::p


You don't need special rules to play an army - especially one that is a subsect of another army. If it worries you, create your own rules. Apocalypse says it's OK to have fun now, so give it a go.

One of these days I'm actually going to sit down and create an army list for all the lists in the 3.5 codex, and try and make the same ones from the 4th codex.

I have no doubt the differences are almost all in the mind of the whiners.


Hellebore

jfrazell
21-08-2007, 12:31
There's no difference now, why worry about it? Use the Khorne as your your cult troops and voila no problem.

grizzly ruin
21-08-2007, 13:28
:rolleyes: He's sayin' you don't need special rules to play a themed army.

And I'll repeat, what does that have to do with the original post?


I'll save you from wasting the 4 calories you'll burn scrolling up:

The original poster is not asking for rules, he's asking for advice.



BDJV is indeed wise, and his comprehension skills are beyond mortal...er... comprehension:cool::p

No.

Re-read the original post. Then check your own comprehension.




You don't need special rules to play an army - especially one that is a subsect of another army.

Where is he asking for special rules?




One of these days I'm actually going to sit down and create an army list for all the lists in the 3.5 codex, and try and make the same ones from the 4th codex.

I have no doubt the differences are almost all in the mind of the whiners.

Cool, I await with bated breath to see your all infiltrating army.

Or your army that has nightvision and stealth.

Or an army that summons daemons that actually hurt the enemy.





In response to Deafwing's original post. Repaint the Iron Warriors! Revel in the joy of playing a Khorne army that's different.

Why repaint them? So they can become invalidated again?

Not worth the risk, and no reason to repaint them since a mish mash warband is what's supported by the new codex.

Deafwing
21-08-2007, 16:56
Okay, yeah, I'm not asking for rules, just advice. I was just wondering what the general consensus was...I don't mind repainting, in fact it may sway me from buying some of the new toys (which would be a good thing, seriously!).

However, it looks as though the majority vote is that I keep two "factions". Which is fine, despite my temptation to have khorny havocs.

I'm sorry if it got people overly excited; no harm done? :D

Alpharius
21-08-2007, 17:03
I have no doubt the differences are almost all in the mind of the whiners.

Hellebore

Whoa! Another graduate from The Dude's School Of Diplomacy! :D




One of these days I'm actually going to sit down and create an army list for all the lists in the 3.5 codex, and try and make the same ones from the 4th codex.



Good luck with that!

I look forward to seeing you work your magic and come up with something to placate all of the EC players that spent time on converting Sonic Weapons for their Terminators and Bike Squads, as well as people that spent money on the ForgeWorld Sonic Dread.

Never mind the people (:eek:) that built up squads of cultists for their Alpha Legion force!


And no, "counts as" doesn't, er, count!

Endemion
21-08-2007, 17:43
When you bust down that wall... how did the Iron Warriors list of the previous codex actually take a city?

Didn't that list allow a unit of berzerkers, for just that purpose?

SwordJon
21-08-2007, 18:49
repainting all my Iron warrior models to be World Eaters. That way instead of 2 good-sized armies, I'd have one really big one. It'd add the option of 3 obliterators, a squad of raptors and a lot of regular marines to my force. And I might even get away with claiming the Basilisk as a Vindicator.

But what do you guys think about this? Its a heck of a lot of work, would it be worthwhile?

Deafwing.

Back in the day, Iron Warriors had berzerkers lead the charge into enemy fortresses and ships. Why not paint some berzerkers up in Iron Warriors colors? Just add some gore coloring to the feet/hands/whatever, and there ya go.

Deafwing
21-08-2007, 19:23
I vaguely remember reading something like that a long time ago, SwordJon, and I think I may have enough extra bodies to actually do it.

Come to think of it, I can probably repaint one Havoc squad to be Worldeaters and one Berzerker squad to be Iron Warriors Berzerkers. :D

BDJV
21-08-2007, 19:35
And I'll repeat, what does that have to do with the original post?


I'll save you from wasting the 4 calories you'll burn scrolling up:

The original poster is not asking for rules, he's asking for advice.

I love Pendancy, thanks can I have some more please.:rolleyes:


Well hellebore was implying why repaint them?

Why repaint them? So they can become invalidated again?

Not worth the risk, and no reason to repaint them since a mish mash warband is what's supported by the new codex.

You just typed out exactly what Hellebore was implying.

So let me reiterate;

First off he can still model and play Iron Warriors, there's just no special rules for them. Boohoo :rolleyes: He just needs to theme the army himself.

Or he can embrace the new Chaos and have a hodgepodge warband.

He who is doom
21-08-2007, 20:23
man what you could do is make the force a joint project of a STORM OF IRON esc army

i like the idea of IW and WE in a war the IW break the wall and the WE dig out the enemy

SwordJon
21-08-2007, 21:07
I vaguely remember reading something like that a long time ago, SwordJon, and I think I may have enough extra bodies to actually do it.

Come to think of it, I can probably repaint one Havoc squad to be Worldeaters and one Berzerker squad to be Iron Warriors Berzerkers. :D

That would be awesome to see a world eaters havoc squad supporting an Iron Warriors berzerker team! After all, he cares not from whom the blood flows, or how the blood flows :D

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 22:11
If i remember the book correctly, the entire group was all IW, just they have elements of their legion that had dedicated themselves to Khorne. Kroger I believe was his name. And for him it was the armor that made him lust for battle like a berserker. The slave girl guardsmen he took killed him and put on his armor and became a berserker herself. She ended up swinging his daemonic axe and rending a hole in reality and stepped through it and disappeared.

Either way, you can field whatever you want however you want. Its the glory of the new codex!.

Grimtuff
21-08-2007, 22:51
If i remember the book correctly, the entire group was all IW, just they have elements of their legion that had dedicated themselves to Khorne. Kroger I believe was his name. And for him it was the armor that made him lust for battle like a berserker. The slave girl guardsmen he took killed him and put on his armor and became a berserker herself. She ended up swinging his daemonic axe and rending a hole in reality and stepped through it and disappeared.

IW were originally dedicated to Khorne anyways (and Alphe Legion to Slaanesh, but I digress....) is the old Slaves to Darkness/Lost and The Damned books.

Kroeger just gives a nod to this.

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 22:56
Yeah i have not read those books. My reading into Black Library publications is merely Storm of Iron, All the currently out Horus Hersey books, Eisenhorn Omnibus and working on the Ultramarines Omnibus. So aside from Codex Fluff and those books, my information compared to a great many others is limited.

Though what books are those that say IW were followers of Khorne? Are they BL publication?

Grimtuff
21-08-2007, 23:04
Though what books are those that say IW were followers of Khorne? Are they BL publication?

They are 2 very old books that go for a pretty penny on eBay. ;)

The first (STD) (hee hee) dealt with the background for Khorne and Slaanesh
The Second (LATD) was Nurgle and Tzeentch.

The was a 2 page spread with all of the banners of the CSM legions and what gods they worshipped (Chaos Undivided did not exist back then)

So Khornate IW need not be repainted nor seen as unfluffy.....

Marius Xerxes
21-08-2007, 23:09
Ahh so they got hit by the GW machine of fluff changes. Thanks though for the info.. always eager to learn new stuff!

Grimtuff
21-08-2007, 23:12
....Just like the Emperor's offspring, the Sensei..... :angel:

Ahem, you didn't hear that, right. (just search the 40k background forums for "sensei") ;)

grizzly ruin
22-08-2007, 05:03
Well hellebore was implying why repaint them?

Hellbore was harping on an issue of people wanting rules for their list, which the OP never made mention of.





So let me reiterate;

First off he can still model and play Iron Warriors, there's just no special rules for them. Boohoo :rolleyes: He just needs to theme the army himself.


Apparently, you still have not read the original post - in which the original poster does not once ask or mention wanting special rules.

Here I'll repost it for you.


repainting all my Iron warrior models to be World Eaters. That way instead of 2 good-sized armies, I'd have one really big one. It'd add the option of 3 obliterators, a squad of raptors and a lot of regular marines to my force. And I might even get away with claiming the Basilisk as a Vindicator.

But what do you guys think about this? Its a heck of a lot of work, would it be worthwhile?

grickherder
22-08-2007, 05:12
It sounds like Deafwing is reacting to the changes in his codex. Proxying the Bassie as a Vindicator (which I think is a cool idea) and thinking about making his two separate armies into a single huge one.

I think it's a pretty solid way to go.

Torga_DW
22-08-2007, 05:46
I think the idea of having 2 different warbands in the one army is cool, especially for chaos marines.

BDJV
22-08-2007, 06:38
Apparently, you still have not read the original post - in which the original poster does not once ask or mention wanting special rules.


I read the post, I thought it was apparent I think it's not worthwhile to repaint them.

BTW did you read the thread title? :confused: It's apparent that the OP is thinking of changing his list/color scheme because GW took away his special rules. Which you obviously have not taken into account.

:cool:

So let me be clear; No it is not worthwhile repainting them. IMVHO

grizzly ruin
22-08-2007, 07:00
BTW did you read the thread title? :confused: It's apparent that the OP is thinking of changing his list/color scheme because GW took away his special rules. Which you obviously have not taken into account.

The problem is when you say something like "because GW took away his special rules" it's terribly condescending. Especially when the OP is looking for modelling/paining advice.




So let me be clear; No it is not worthwhile repainting them. IMVHO

Well at least that part we agree on.

Hellebore
22-08-2007, 07:22
repainting all my Iron warrior models to be World Eaters. That way instead of 2 good-sized armies, I'd have one really big one. It'd add the option of 3 obliterators, a squad of raptors and a lot of regular marines to my force. And I might even get away with claiming the Basilisk as a Vindicator.

But what do you guys think about this? Its a heck of a lot of work, would it be worthwhile?

Deafwing.


And I'll repeat, what does that have to do with the original post?


I'll save you from wasting the 4 calories you'll burn scrolling up:

The original poster is not asking for rules, he's asking for advice.


Which appear to be about painting that will affect the rules of his army. As the World Eater Legion as a whole is entirely composed of Khorne Berserkers, I mistakenly understood that when someone wished to paint their models like them, they wanted them to be Berserkers. If I painted my Ultramarine terminators white with a red winged sword on their shoulder, I'd be repainting them as deathwing. As the deathwing have their own special rules, I assume they would now BE deathwing.

As all the World Eaters are Berserkers, but not all Berserkers are world eaters, any model painted as such would by definition have to be a berserker.

If the original poster was not referring to the actualities of the fluff but his own misconception of it, then I have indeed miscomprehended the statement. I can't see any logical problem between painting models in livery exclusively given to berserkers, and the changing of rules for the army.

I have Salamanders and Ultramarines built from the Space Marine codex (as specified in the traits section). If I were to paint the Ultramarines as Salamanders, then they would BE Salamanders and subject to the rules that govern them (like two special weapons in the same squad).

But then I'm making the assumption that the models are painted to represent a specific story/concept from the background...



No.

Re-read the original post. Then check your own comprehension.


BDJV's comprehension was perfect - he understood that I was referring to rules. What you are saying is that I shouldn't have been referring to rules, which has nothing to do with BDJV's ability to comprehend the context of my statement.




Cool, I await with bated breath to see your all infiltrating army.


I think you misunderstand me. The models must fit into the army list - the rules that govern those models only affect their ability to be included if they are modelled onto them (so models that can 'infiltrate are not invalidated). A simple 'flavour' addition would be to have 3 units of Chosen. That's 3 units in your army that can infiltrate.

You also seem to be making the fallacious assumption that the possibilities with the original codex were completely balanced, and their removal unnecessary. I disagree. An all infiltrating army is not balanced, especially when they are power armoured warriors who can take a multitude of heavy and special weapons.



Or your army that has nightvision and stealth.


This again doesn't invalidate models, it invalidates special rules. In this instance I cannot make an army with either special rules. This doesn't change army composition, but rather removes benefits the army used to have (I have come across many who took the undivided legions because they weren't using the units that were restricted to get the advantages - just like the trait that disallows allies for space marines).

Composition-wise the list would be virtually identical, ruleswise it would not.




Or an army that summons daemons that actually hurt the enemy.


Lol. I assume you found the horrors in the previous codex incapable of actually hurting the enemy. And that the new ones being better than horrors are still just as bad?

I assumed that any model with a WS, S, I, and A value >0 would be capable of hurting the enemy (assuming it wasn't a vehicle).




If you go to the Rules Development Forum you will find a Dark Eldar Codex, a Harlequin codex, an Eldar codex, a Craftworld Eldar supplement and a list I wrote for the Varyngr, a reimagining of the Squats. This is what I do if I don't like what GW have done.

I got tired of sentencing the sea to 300 lashes (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-xerxes.html)...

Hellebore

BDJV
22-08-2007, 08:27
The problem is when you say something like "because GW took away his special rules" it's terribly condescending. Especially when the OP is looking for modelling/paining advice.

The last thing I meant to be was condescending to the OP. I was just pointing out what I perceived as the facts, because you kept pushing the issue.

Sorry, I meant no offense Deafwing.

Clang
22-08-2007, 08:39
yeah, no need to repaint anything. If you want to be really fluffy then just write yourself a bit of background about how your army represents a Dark Crusade (as I recall, a GW concept from the ancient 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, but I can't find it on my bookshelf) - where multiple chaos legions come together for a specific campaign or whatever

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-08-2007, 08:49
not all world eaters are berzerkers - just many of them (hell, another topic about WE,EC,DG :/ )

it is not worth to repaint them

bungeeboy
22-08-2007, 09:25
IMO, keep the iron warriors, and add berzerkers, maybe consider "iron world eaters?"

i've always like the idea of that, iron power armour, dripping with blood :)

Cacodemon
22-08-2007, 09:37
not all world eaters are berzerkers - just many of them

Wrong, all World Eaters are Khorne Berzerkers.

grizzly ruin
22-08-2007, 18:47
Which appear to be about painting that will affect the rules of his army. As the World Eater Legion as a whole is entirely composed of Khorne Berserkers, I mistakenly understood that when someone wished to paint their models like them, they wanted them to be Berserkers.

As all the World Eaters are Berserkers, but not all Berserkers are world eaters, any model painted as such would by definition have to be a berserker.


Actually there isn't anything in the Codex that specifically says all World Eaters are Khorne Berzerkers, it just says they first perfected the practice, and that would be Berzerkers usually join "The World Eaters" (which makes no sense, since they don't actually exist as a Legion since Skalathrax).

It does say that the Legion swore itself to Khorne, but hell anyone can do that by grabbing themselves an Icon.

You can actually paint CSMs in the colors of World Eaters and not have them be Berzerkers the troop unit.

But he may have in fact wanted all of his models to be Berzerkers, I don't know because he didn't actually make mention of it.




I think you misunderstand me. The models must fit into the army list - the rules that govern those models only affect their ability to be included if they are modelled onto them (so models that can 'infiltrate are not invalidated). A simple 'flavour' addition would be to have 3 units of Chosen. That's 3 units in your army that can infiltrate.

So basically you would sit down and write a bunch of 3.5 lists that don't use their rules to the best benefit so you can re-create those lists using the 4.0 codex to prove all the "whiners" wrong.




You also seem to be making the fallacious assumption that the possibilities with the original codex were completely balanced, and their removal unnecessary. I disagree. An all infiltrating army is not balanced, especially when they are power armoured warriors who can take a multitude of heavy and special weapons.

Are scuttling, fleeting, rending Genestealers balanced?

Are 6 MCs in one list balanced?

Are 3 skimmers that are near-guaranteed to not be destroyed weathering 6 turns of firepower balanced?

It really depends on you look at things.




(I have come across many who took the undivided legions because they weren't using the units that were restricted to get the advantages - just like the trait that disallows allies for space marines).

The Black Legion had no special rules, no restrictions.

The units that were restricted to Legions like AL and NL were some of the best in the codex: Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Cult Terminators.

The Word Bearers "special rules" consisted of more troop slots which most players would struggle to fill and access to an overpriced CSM Chaplain Variant.

That leaves the Iron Warriors who actually did get massive advantages in trade off for the restrictions.

And those rules existed to be used. What is actually wrong with people using the rules set forth in a codex?

Nothing.



Composition-wise the list would be virtually identical, ruleswise it would not.

Composition as in paint?




Lol. I assume you found the horrors in the previous codex incapable of actually hurting the enemy. And that the new ones being better than horrors are still just as bad?

I assumed that any model with a WS, S, I, and A value >0 would be capable of hurting the enemy (assuming it wasn't a vehicle).

I was being sarcastic.

I didn't have to use horrors. I actually had a choice of what daemons I wanted to use.

Now I don't have a choice. I can use daemons that are overpriced, or I can use none at all.