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Reflex
22-08-2007, 03:29
Some of the topics here have made me think about where GW is heading...

topics like:

GW Annual Report - a loss!
by Brandir

and


How is GW treated near you?
by Ninners

i am sorry to say but GW stores now are more empty then ever, and obviously the losses they experienced in the last fincial year muct be rasing alarm bells for GW.

but then i see that the apoc book is going to cost $90 AUD.. considering the main 40k rule book is $85 i fail to see what GW are thinking... its it utterly confusing.

other mini's companies dont seem to be charging an arm and a leg for a book, or there mini's.

what is GW thinking??? :confused:

i am utterly, utterly confused.

cheers

LionoftheBegs
22-08-2007, 04:04
And not properly supplying saleable goods to their stores as well.

Light of the Emperor
22-08-2007, 04:30
Well, with this year's financial report, GW realized they isolated their veteran gamers and need to cut down on costs. In the US, they plan on closing quite a few of their stores that keep posting negatives.

Apocalypse, I think, is going to help them. It targets veteran gamers, encourages more sales and offers some really good minature deals. From what I've seen, everyone is really excited for apocalypse. This may be the adrenaline shot needed to boost interest in the game and for GW to get their heads on straight.
We'll see what happens.

Bookwrak
22-08-2007, 04:49
And not properly supplying saleable goods to their stores as well.

Given that you're the only one I've heard who has this problem, I'd say it's less a GW problem, than the manager of that store apparently isn't all that competent in the area of inventory control.

Reflex
22-08-2007, 04:56
i will say i am excited for apoc.. i love warhammer.. its a damn awsome game! love it.. and apoc just looks like it is going to be some 10 foot tables by 5 foot tables of mass carnage... cannot wait!

but the company is rediculous... and i dont what they are doing.

in australia, they lsot alot of vet gamers because we have a poor website.. seriously, have a look, its crap..

http://oz.games-workshop.com/

and (not 1005 on this, about 95%) australia 2nd to new zealand, pays the most for models, we pay almost 10% more.. another not funny joke. and dont say its beacuse of shipping costs, because thats a poor excuse as shipping dose not cost as much as 10% more.

like i said, great game, bad company.

Gaius_Baltar
22-08-2007, 05:05
That's the problem. They are caring too much about money, and dont care about the actual people.
They think "Hmm.. if we make it cost more, we get more money.. If we kick out all the veteran players from our stores, there's more physical room to get in new people!"

But they don't realise, that people are actual people who will stop buying as much if the prices go up 7 times faster than inflation every 6 months, and seem to only care about getting more people into the hobby instead of sustaining the people still in it, which it's easier to keep veterans in the hobby than get new people.

Stella Cadente
22-08-2007, 05:14
in australia, they lsot alot of vet gamers because we have a poor website.. seriously, have a look, its crap..

http://oz.games-workshop.com/


MY GOD, do they ever update????? there sneak peeks are still the Librarians and devvies

Adept
22-08-2007, 06:06
in australia, they lsot alot of vet gamers because we have a poor website.. seriously, have a look, its crap..

While I agree that our GW site is, at best, average, I disagree that GW is losing veteran gamers in Australia.

Without hard and fast sales data from GW, I think the next best way to judge the health of the gamer community is through tournaments, and the Oz tournament scene is very healthy, and only looks to be getting stronger.

Reflex
22-08-2007, 06:55
adept, my bad, i should go into a bit more depth... and the fact is i said its beacuse of our website.. that was an error.. vets didnt leave beacuse of the website, they left because of GW as a company, once again, sorry, my bad..

there are some that leave, but there are some that say well F that company, i am not going to there hobby stores anymore and i am not oging to buy anything any more.

they (in a nut shell) dont support GW anymore, but have game's here and there. this group of us (about 30 ish players) decided to take a break and play other mini games. we all got into flames of war and that is an excellent game, the reason why some of us have come back is because of apocalypse and our over all love for the game. not the love for the company.

(btw, i wouldnt consider my self a vet, more of a intermediate player, but most of the poeple i refer to in this story are vets, they have been playing for a good 7-8 years, i have only been playing for 4 and a half years now. )

but none the less, in this story, GW drove away customers that would easily spend $200 a month minimum each. thats alot of money over 12 months, especailly considering most of them spent 3 or 4 times that.

GW marketing stratergies are beyond me.

sebster
22-08-2007, 07:55
There’s this strange notion that people leaving GW is somehow a sign of impending doom. I started buying GW stuff in the early 90s and there was plenty of people around then who hated GW, they’d burned out on the hobby and moved onto other games, or simply moved out of gaming altogether. Its part of the GW experience, people get really heavily into the background and the amazing models and great looking battlefields… then find out what you’re basically doing is painting models and pretending they fight each other. A lot of people don’t take to that realization to well, and start blaming everything and everyone for basic problem that maybe this hobby isn’t for them… maybe it never was.

Late 90s I burned out as well, like a lot of gamers I staked a lot on the hobby and it couldn’t deliver. I loved the narrative, loved imagery, loved losing myself in the setting detail, and found the actual playing of the games couldn’t give the feel my imagination wanted. A few years ago I looked at some of the miniatures in friend’s White Dwarf and wanted to start painting again. Now I look at the hobby as a couple of painted miniatures each week (which keeps the costs in the irrelevant category) and a game or two every other Saturday, which is all it really should ever be.

And none of that has anything to do with GW. GW’s certainly got problems, there’s been a lot of overhead bloat in the last few years, they’ve antagonized independent suppliers in setting up there own stores in places that haven’t been able to sustain them, and codex release schedule has been glacial. But people getting in a tizzy and quitting as customers… that’s as old as anything.

Bookwrak
22-08-2007, 08:33
Australia is always going to be a problem. Low population density, scattered cities, no miniature production in-country. Getting stuff into the country, and to people is harder to do in Oz than elsewhere.

Adept
22-08-2007, 08:43
Australia is always going to be a problem. Low population density, scattered cities, no miniature production in-country. Getting stuff into the country, and to people is harder to do in Oz than elsewhere.

Australia is a funny creature in that, in terms of land area vs population, we have a very low population density. However, at the same time almost all of our population is concentrated in half a dozen cities, mostly on the east coast. You could reach half of the countries potential gamers with five stores each in Melbourne and Sydney!

destroyerlord
22-08-2007, 09:24
Australia is a funny creature in that, in terms of land area vs population, we have a very low population density. However, at the same time almost all of our population is concentrated in half a dozen cities, mostly on the east coast. You could reach half of the countries potential gamers with five stores each in Melbourne and Sydney!

But thats exactly where all of the GW stores are in Australia. :confused:

grickherder
22-08-2007, 09:30
And none of that has anything to do with GW. GW’s certainly got problems, there’s been a lot of overhead bloat in the last few years, they’ve antagonized independent suppliers in setting up there own stores in places that haven’t been able to sustain them, and codex release schedule has been glacial. But people getting in a tizzy and quitting as customers… that’s as old as anything.

That's certainly true. But one factor is their quantity. If you have more that are leaving than coming, or if the ones leaving are all potential long term customers and the ones coming are only ever going to be short term, you can hit a critical mass and have sales fall through the floor.

My favorite part of miniature wargaming is the painting and planning of it all. I'm more of a painter-gamer than a gamer-painter. I also have lots of open minded gamers around me who are willing to try any rules set, so I can always use my toys with superior rules like Fast And Dirty or 5150. After over 20 years, GW hasn't gotten the rules right, so at this point I don't ever expect them to do so.

Reflex
22-08-2007, 10:53
the thing i am finding is that even though i have always experienced negetive GW comments, latly (say for about a year and a half) the comments have been getting worse and there have been alot more voices added to the mix.

and its not just from players and the like, even some GW staff hate the company, which begs the question why they still work there, but regardless this year was the fisr loss for GW in a wile, and it was a rather large one at that if i am correct.

just shocked and appauled by GW's behavour.

blongbling
22-08-2007, 12:56
it was only a loss as they put some of the resturcturing costs into this year, if they had decided to not restructure they would have made £1.9m profit.

grickherder
22-08-2007, 13:19
blongbling, I'd say that there's nothing exceptional about expenses in trying to turn a profit. Investor relations is usually investor propaganda. Generally speaking, if a company tells their shareholders that a loss is only the result of "exceptional" items or circumstances, they're trying to carry out a snow job. There is nothing exceptional about having to close stores, lay off staff and do massive restructuring in the face of plummeting sales-- that's the typical response to such a situation.

Next year (or even quarter) if GW continues to have losses, they'll be another item that they will no doubt tell us is an "exception" and that they'd really have a profit if not for it. :rolleyes:

sebster
24-08-2007, 09:36
That's certainly true. But one factor is their quantity. If you have more that are leaving than coming, or if the ones leaving are all potential long term customers and the ones coming are only ever going to be short term, you can hit a critical mass and have sales fall through the floor.

Given GW's recent decline in sales, you might have a point about the quantity of people leaving. I'm not convinced at this point, but will be watching their next few reports for an indication on sales.


blongbling, I'd say that there's nothing exceptional about expenses in trying to turn a profit. Investor relations is usually investor propaganda. Generally speaking, if a company tells their shareholders that a loss is only the result of "exceptional" items or circumstances, they're trying to carry out a snow job. There is nothing exceptional about having to close stores, lay off staff and do massive restructuring in the face of plummeting sales-- that's the typical response to such a situation.

Next year (or even quarter) if GW continues to have losses, they'll be another item that they will no doubt tell us is an "exception" and that they'd really have a profit if not for it.

Nah, I can tell you as an accountant that the last thing smart investors pay attention to is accounting profit. What matters is the cashflow, will the company continue paying dividends, and will those dividends grow? The key indicators there are sales growth and cost management (both areas where GW has done poorly).

Losses are very important in the media, who are reporting to people who don’t understand how… interpretative… accounting figures can be. If GW had wanted to, they could have declared high profits, but there would have been no point, as smart investors look past the tricks of capitalization and holding onto defunct assets, and onto the real value of the company – the long term cashflow.

Crube
24-08-2007, 09:44
Althogh there is a problem with the quantity of people leaving, there's also the issue of the qulity of people leaving. There are some good people jumping ship, people who really care about the 'GW Hobby' and the people involved. This just leaves the rest who (sweeping generalisation ahead) are just in it for the money...

asmodai_dark86
24-08-2007, 10:22
I have to agree with LOTE here and say that APOC will be bother GW's biggest success and failure.

The veterans who've been so annoyed and disillusioned over the past few years arent going into this jaded or cheated - they know its all for kicks and thats part of why its so fun. It gives forgeworld yet another boost after the hugely successful Krieg, whilst bringing back a lot of players by the power of the new kits (lets face it, once you saw the baneblade you wanted one - this plastic one is a treadheads wet dream. And I've always wanted to have a marine company... with the new box set I can see many people going past that and buying whole chapters worth of marines)

But selling so many models in the short term can be a good idea... surely

yabbadabba
24-08-2007, 10:36
I think where GW has gone wrong is in their investments. They have invested in infrastructure to cope with an increase in sales - but now they have a decline in sales and they are cutting back on some of that infrastructure. What they have invested in is hard things that are of worth to the company, but only if the company is making money.

Me - I would have done it differently. I would have spent some of that money researching into the fracturing within the customer bases and how best to progress someone from beginner to totally committed. Better beginners products, advanced rule sets, SG revamped, more races and games invented and lined up - just waiting to be made. Better customer relations and involvement at Group level, not just at Sales level. Create products that enthrall campaigner, tournament players, painters, free form gamers, newbies, treadheads, scenery makers e.t.c. I would have invested in an online "Vault" for all the great ideas, mad rules and conversions e.t.c. that couldn't be made, from the designers and the customers, to live in and to be a source of inspiration for all.

All this would be to point to one direction - keeping the customers they have been recruiting through great product relevant to them and excellent customer service. Finally I would show that when you start in the "GW Hobby" when you are 12 when you are 18, 20, 35 or whatever, you have an ownership of that hobby and respect in that company.

Nyarlathotep
24-08-2007, 17:36
other mini's companies dont seem to be charging an arm and a leg for a book, or there mini's.

what is GW thinking??? :confused:

i am utterly, utterly confused.

cheers

Sorry but this statement is ridiculous. No other Miniature company has an international presence with multiple stores to fund in almost every country in the world, or their own hobby magazine, or a dedicated multi million pound HQ with thousands of staff to pay world wide. Is there any comparison? I dont think so.

Asmith
24-08-2007, 18:05
The statement is not ridiculous, yours is. None of these things add any value for a consumer. Businesses get big by being able to provide more for there customers for less using economies of scale, thus supporting the increased overhead. Begin large offers a competetive advantage, not a disadvantage as you are saying.

Pokpoko
24-08-2007, 18:20
Sorry but this statement is ridiculous. No other Miniature company has an international presence with multiple stores to fund in almost every country in the world, or their own hobby magazine, or a dedicated multi million pound HQ with thousands of staff to pay world wide. Is there any comparison? I dont think so.
to main competitors of GW both have-their dedicated hobby mag and international presence. both lack own retail chains, but that's what Indies are for. however,they are both not really cheaper than GW when comparing mini for mini,to be true.

Nyarlathotep
24-08-2007, 20:38
The statement is not ridiculous, yours is. None of these things add any value for a consumer. Businesses get big by being able to provide more for there customers for less using economies of scale, thus supporting the increased overhead. Begin large offers a competetive advantage, not a disadvantage as you are saying.

I think you are missing the point. The money to pay for these things has to come from some where.

captian pleb333
24-08-2007, 21:29
Sorry but this statement is ridiculous. No other Miniature company has an international presence with multiple stores to fund in almost every country in the world, or their own hobby magazine, or a dedicated multi million pound HQ with thousands of staff to pay world wide. Is there any comparison? I dont think so.
I dont see what was wrong with the first comment. Many other companies make figures equal to or better than GW. An internation chain of stores is not needed to be successful especially when a buisness can be on the internet or at wargaming shows.

grickherder
25-08-2007, 00:06
Yes the money for those stores and all the overhead has to come from somewhere, but the point of a business is not to pay for overhead but to generate profit and a good return on capital. If you're overloaded with overhead to the point where you are no longer profitable and your sales are declining, then it's a bad position to be in. "GW has to pay for all their bloat, that's why the prices are so high." is ridiculous. All that bloat, international retail stores, etc., are currently a bad thing-- not a justification for higher prices.

Reflex
25-08-2007, 11:15
who here can get GW mini's from anywhere, except from a GW hobby store?

i can think of 6 different ways...

online store, ebay and 4 inderpended retailers close enough for me to go there.

do i ever use a hobby store... about once a year just to see whats going on and because i love to be haggled by staff to buy new models for an army i only ever want to win against on the table top, i dont want to buy your shiney new Chaos marines, no no, i play necrons... ok,, they dont relate, ok nothing nothing...

all the hobby stores seem to do if fuel GW's ever increasing inflation rates and waste up valuable shop space for some other shop which could sell something to me i cant get over the internet...

your move chuckles...

Nyarlathotep
25-08-2007, 11:27
Well, I cant speak for Australian stores, but in the south west of England and over in Dublin the stores are usually fairly busy. I do appreciate your point and understand where you are coming from though. I do believe that GW stores are an important part of the company and have been integral to the companies success.
A well informed and stocked Independent store could serve equally as well as a GW store. I do buy the majority of my models from direct sales, either over the phone or the internet, but it is always nice to walk into a store and be able to pickup and examine what you are buying.
I suppose GW have realised that they do not need so many stores, which is why they are closing some down.

yabbadabba
28-08-2007, 12:12
This whole "Does GW need a retail chain or not ... ..." argument needs to take into account that different countries need a different sales approach.

In the UK there is nowwhere near the indie store per population head as there is in the states. In addition, alot of those Indie stores are Toy shops who have no interest in running hobby activities. Also, in the UK all toy based businesses are suffering heavily because of the internet. So a strong retail presence is essential in the UK to effectively recruit and grow the business.

In the US, all I hear from my friends and on forums such as these is that there is a strong and pro-active indie network. Therefore GW probably needs a much smaller Retail footprint than it would need in the UK, and it's Trade Sales teams should be the driving force to push the growth of the business.

However neither of these regions are the issue in terms of how to push sales. It is Continental Europe that is causing the biggest headache in terms of performance according to the reports, and I cannot comment about over there I am afraid :)

In short GW's sales policy needs to reflect the areas it operates in. The real problem then becomes vs the Internet. Ebay and online traders can, and do, cause a lot of harm to GW sales, although ironically they keep the interest high. The question becomes should GW bring back skullz and allow their own stores to run a bulk buy/discount policy to couter the web, or should they press on regardless?

Answers on a post card please ... ...

plantagenet
29-08-2007, 12:41
In Switzerland the Indie store setup that services clients seems to be very good. However it should be noted that the same stores sell Rackham and At43 products next to GW and that the same chain of stores also sell computer games. There is a lot of competition for young peoples money.

GW products however do seem to have good penetration amongst the people in Switzerland.

efarrer
29-08-2007, 12:41
Sorry but this statement is ridiculous. No other Miniature company has an international presence with multiple stores to fund in almost every country in the world, or their own hobby magazine, or a dedicated multi million pound HQ with thousands of staff to pay world wide. Is there any comparison? I dont think so.

So the purpose of the product is to supplement the retail chain. If the retail stores can't turn a profit on reasonable prices, well that is a very bad road to travel down. All of those things you mentioned should be self sustaining or terminated (I personally am in favour of the now worthless White Dwarf getting cut).

If you try to use high prices to pay for anything worthless you won't have either in the long run.

efarrer
29-08-2007, 12:41
In short GW's sales policy needs to reflect the areas it operates in. The real problem then becomes vs the Internet. Ebay and online traders can, and do, cause a lot of harm to GW sales, although ironically they keep the interest high. The question becomes should GW bring back skullz and allow their own stores to run a bulk buy/discount policy to couter the web, or should they press on regardless?

Answers on a post card please ... ...

Skullz was a bad promo plan, in Canada. The prizes were crap.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
30-08-2007, 17:52
i agree with LionoftheBegs when he says the lack of things in the stores, the norwich one has very little in it compared to a few years ago which forces people to either go to the online gw store or to other retailer who will sell it normally cheaper, there are very little blister packs anymore and what there is is usualy the higher end priced ones :(