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jacko3123
22-08-2007, 17:29
do you think the new chaos stuff is good,bad or the same

Sir_Turalyon
22-08-2007, 17:36
Definietly good.

Stella Cadente
22-08-2007, 18:13
some good some bad

Good: Possessed, terminators, lord, extra marine bits, codex

Bad: spawn, raptor lord, Khorne lord, and that tyrant of Baghdad fella

Zanzibarthefirst
22-08-2007, 18:24
making an army list is a lot easier now and no more stupid lords with millions of minor powers

crandall87
22-08-2007, 18:32
Model wise they are better by a great deal. I don't like the new metal models much though.

synapse
22-08-2007, 18:32
i love the models, and having skimmed through the codex, theres very little i dont like

Hulkster
22-08-2007, 18:45
Love the new models espec the new terminators

Polonius
22-08-2007, 19:04
The new codex is interesting from both a modeling, fluff, and gaming perspective. IMO, it is less good than the old codex, but this one is very nice in it's own right.

duke_Qa
22-08-2007, 19:27
good:

the models and stuff is alright i guess. the more liberal rules on how to build your army is ok, i don't mind more tactical depth. getting rid of the holy numbers is good, it really made you go crazy. "must follow the number, damn the consequences!!"

bad:
though i am a bit annoyed that there are (edit)just as many spells around as there was before. also a bit puzzled that 1ksons doesn't get any equipment to help out in psychic battles against Eldar and others who have tools that makes the psyker's life miserable.

the dangers of people coming around with blasphemous combinations in their armies, death guard and 1k coming for you for example. the lack of proper daemons which prolly will come in some codex later.


conclusion: i think this codex is a great placeholder until GW finds out that they might do specific army codex for the four big ones. though i don't think that will happen, so if i was to grade it i would say 7/10. at least until i get to try the new armies properly :p

Damien 1427
22-08-2007, 19:34
From a modelling perspective, it's a Chaos players wet dream. The Chaos Terminator Lord is made of pure glory, the Terminators are amazingly put together and scream customisation, the Possessed and Spawn are stunning, and the recut Traitor Legionnaires are great as is their new upgrade sprue. It's great stuff, which shows up the Termie Lord and Possessed we got last year for the crap they are. They're not even in the same league. Some gorgeous stuff, guys and girls.

From a fluff point, it's mostly new stuff. There's the obligatory waffle about the Heresy that hasn't changed since the Second Edition book, but the overall feel is less about the Legions, and more about individual warbands. Most of the Renegades aren't Chapters or post-Heresy loyalists, just Marines who're fighting under a new liege and new colours. Why just run with the Death Guard when you can try The Purge? And why just play the Emperors Children when you can field The Immaculate Host?
It's good stuff, and I'm glad that there's more new, interesting stuff about warbands and Champions. Makes it feel more... Chaotic.

From a gaming point of view? A big fat meh. I stand by my old comments on it coming across as a revamp of the original 3rd Edition book. It's simplified, toned down, and in my eyes, Spiky Loyalists. Not what I wanted at all. What I saw as credible complaints (9 Obliterators, Vindicators, etcetera) are still kicking around, whilst Dreadnoughts are Elites (Why?), Raptors lost Hit and Run, and there's an all-pervading feeling of resounding meh eminating from the book.

Two out of three ain't bad. Especially when I don't play a great deal any more, and if I was going to use these chaps it'd be in my own Path to Glory variant. But after the manic, vast and delicous choice of the previous book, it feels rather meh.

Skibbles
22-08-2007, 19:46
Its pretty cool, but personally it was very boring, everything seemed so cookie cutter, I felt very trapped with the few viable choices I could have.

Edit: The new models are ace though!

badnewsblair
22-08-2007, 20:00
I JUST got my White Dwarf and finished reading about all of the changes. Of course, Codex-wise, it is biased on it's coverage so it would be better for me to head down to my GW store and thumb through it myself, but since I can't...

I love the changes. In fact, I'm going to go out and say that GW is doing a great job in the direction 40K is heading. From what I can tell, the majority of new army lines (Chaos included) are going more streamline and less cluttered. For whatever reason, I like this.

Favorite new Chaos model? Probably the Lord in Terminator armor or the Sorceror. Both make me consider starting a Chaos army in adition to my Eldar.
Sacreligous!

Damien 1427
22-08-2007, 20:17
I love the changes. In fact, I'm going to go out and say that GW is doing a great job in the direction 40K is heading. From what I can tell, the majority of new army lines (Chaos included) are going more streamline and less cluttered. For whatever reason, I like this.

Whereas I just don't think it works. Not for Chaos, or for Orks. Chaos is about choice, about your own individual take on it, making the army yours. Bionics were hardly game-breaking, but went a way to give your army some flavour. Streamlining seems incorrect, it just feels like they're dumbing the list down, and perhaps the game if every race will get something like this.
Then again, I think 40k shouldn't worry a great deal about balance. It isn't designed for tournie play. It just doesn't fit. If I want that, I could play Warmachine, if I actually want a laugh I'll break out 40k, or nowadays Legends of the Old West or Necromunda.

Hack out the Legion lists, and tone down the Cult lists, and the last edition of the Codex was fine. Full of choice, of silly little options that did nothing but added a great flavour.

Supremearchmarshal
22-08-2007, 20:52
Whereas I just don't think it works. Not for Chaos, or for Orks. Chaos is about choice, about your own individual take on it, making the army yours. Bionics were hardly game-breaking, but went a way to give your army some flavour. Streamlining seems incorrect, it just feels like they're dumbing the list down, and perhaps the game if every race will get something like this.
Then again, I think 40k shouldn't worry a great deal about balance. It isn't designed for tournie play. It just doesn't fit. If I want that, I could play Warmachine, if I actually want a laugh I'll break out 40k, or nowadays Legends of the Old West or Necromunda.

Hack out the Legion lists, and tone down the Cult lists, and the last edition of the Codex was fine. Full of choice, of silly little options that did nothing but added a great flavour.

Mostly I agree. However, I must also sadly state that few people used the little quirky items and simply looked for the most broken ones and pushed them mercilessly. For example Iron Warriors - people just maxed out on heavy support, obliterators and 5-man lascannon squads. World Eaters and Emperors Children deamonbombed using ridiculouly broken summoning rules and underpriced daemons.

The main problem with the old codex was that it gave power without danger (with only a few exceptions). Chaos marines should be very powerful, but also very unpredictable and a double-edged sword for their commander.

The new codex toned Chaos down, but not the way it should have been. It made chaos marines into spiky loyalists, even giving them Vindicators and making one of the most defining units - daemons - worthless.
I strongly dislike the new codex - filled with no-brainer choices and doesn't give a damn about fluff - Oooh, I got a great new Slaanesh daemon prince and his bodyguard of thousand sons leading a horde of khorne berserkers :rolleyes:

New models are great, though - especially the Spawn

Sir_Turalyon
22-08-2007, 21:15
New chaos is great and gives you plenty of choice - you just need to compare list with contemporary codices (Dark Angles, Blood Angels), not with 3,5 codex. Varied squad sizes, much more elastic special weapon options, chosen carrying tons of power weapons, 3-strong pocket terminator squads, up to 20 cheap raptors in squad, special weapon raptors, raptor champion having lightning claw option while all marine seregants / champions get limited to only power weapons / fists, special weapon havocs... Only unique advantage loyalist counterparts of these squads get is ATSKNF and combat squads. Spiky loyalists? It's spiky loyalists with much more options and little less organisation.

bungeeboy
22-08-2007, 22:35
its awesome , end of.

kairous
22-08-2007, 22:51
from what i have seen and read, its alot easier to make an army, where as in the previous book, you would encounter upgrades and options that would not make it always very clear if you could take them or not, or the rules about only certain pieces of wargear add to your limit.
I my opinion, yes its sad we lost all the delicious upgrades, but i can put that aside if it means making my army becomes easier.
However im strongly agianst how unfluffy the new book is, i mean thousand sons leading khorne berserkers, NO NO NO, it would never happen, or if it did only in a black legion or undivided army, and then they would only be fighting alongside each other and not being lead by the other (if that makes sense.)

Damien 1427
22-08-2007, 23:00
New chaos is great and gives you plenty of choice - you just need to compare list with contemporary codices (Dark Angles, Blood Angels), not with 3,5 codex.

Erm, what? Why shouldn't I compare it with what it's supposed to be replacing? Yeah, compared to the Loyalist list it has a few more bells and whistles, but the Dark Angel list in particular is barely above Warmachine in options, and I would be forced to agree Loyalists should be more... restricted. They're a sanctioned millitary force running on certain laws and doctrines, set in stone, that are followed on pain of death. Chaos is the precise opposite, the clue is in the name.
If I want that kind of restriction, I'd sooner break out Epic. Superior game, lacks the options, bugger finding opponents. Isn't half as much fun building an army, either.

As for the gumpf that the previous book was somehow "hard" to read or work with, I owned it since release. I found it crystal clear from the word go. I heard that excuse thrown around since it was rumbled from on high we'd be losing flexibility so Jervis' offspring could get their head around it. :rolleyes: Didn't hold water to me then, doesn't now.

Merceus
22-08-2007, 23:02
Its neither better nor worse... and its not the same... its different... but because that wasnt a choice I put Same

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 01:49
I strongly dislike the new codex - filled with no-brainer choices and doesn't give a damn about fluff - Oooh, I got a great new Slaanesh daemon prince and his bodyguard of thousand sons leading a horde of khorne berserkers :rolleyes:
Why is this an issue?

The important thing is that players have more options and that nothing stops players from fielding a Fluffy force. Khorne regained MoK Havocs and so on.

If it's a pure powergamer list, and is easily identifiable as such, without any fig leaf of Fluff to hide behind. Nobody forces players to take the so-called no-brainer choices (which I am not at all convinced to be that good).

Supremearchmarshal
23-08-2007, 13:24
Why is this an issue?

The important thing is that players have more options and that nothing stops players from fielding a Fluffy force. Khorne regained MoK Havocs and so on.

If it's a pure powergamer list, and is easily identifiable as such, without any fig leaf of Fluff to hide behind. Nobody forces players to take the so-called no-brainer choices (which I am not at all convinced to be that good).

More options? Didn't you notice the substantial REDUCTION of options in the unit entries and the lack of an armoury? And the sudden disappearance of Daemonic Beasts, Nurglings, Cultists, different types of daemons etc etc.
MoK Havocs I don't mind - they were in the original RoC: Slaves to Darkness after all. The problem is combining ancient enemies in the same army - both unfluffy and catering to powergamers. And stuff like 2 Daemon Princes is just wrong...

The no-brainer choices include stuff like: Obliterators vs. Havocs, Terminators vs. Possessed, Lesser Daemons vs. ordinary Chaos Marines etc.
Not that the alernate choices are completely useless, but they're simply less effective for their cost. Yeah, you can choose an army based on fluff alone, but don't expect to win much. Nevermind that some players will have their units made illegal with the new codex. And I can't miss noting that Terminators, Obliterators and Raptors have expensive models...

GW simply replaced one broken list with another and forced a lot of people to buy new models.

Wolflord Havoc
23-08-2007, 13:50
The new codex is a thing of Beauty.

Ah! 56 out of 69 people prefer it according to the Poll with only 9 thinking its worse.

I call that a win for the new Codex.

Damien 1427
23-08-2007, 14:02
The new codex is a thing of Beauty.

Ah! 56 out of 69 people prefer it according to the Poll with only 9 thinking its worse.

I call that a win for the new Codex.

I'll ask how many of them use Chaos as their primary army. I'll also ask how many of them have used Chaos as their primary army since the original 3rd edition codex.

Ravenous
23-08-2007, 14:14
I'm liking the new codex, the only thing I have a beef with is that the possessed have absolutely awesome models but that random chart they have is junk.

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 14:16
I'm liking the new codex, the only thing I have a beef with is that the possessed have absolutely awesome models but that random chart they have is junk.

It's chaos... ;)

infinity101
23-08-2007, 14:23
Ah! 56 out of 69 people prefer it according to the Poll with only 9 thinking its worse.

I call that a win for the new Codex.




GW simply replaced one broken list with another and forced a lot of people to buy new models.

and i call it a loss for balance

the codex did not do what it was supposed to do and that makes it bad IMO

Supremearchmarshal
23-08-2007, 15:22
It's chaos... ;)

Yes, but

a) they explained in the 3.5ed codex that they considered random powers inappropriate for tournament play and WYSIWYG. Now they bring them back:wtf:

b) their points cost should justify the risk of getting a useless power. Instead they decided to increase it??? Now they're almost as expensive as Termies. Plus they lost their bolt pistols...

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 15:36
Yes, but

a) they explained in the 3.5ed codex that they considered random powers inappropriate for tournament play and WYSIWYG. Now they bring them back:wtf:

b) their points cost should justify the risk of getting a useless power. Instead they decided to increase it??? Now they're almost as expensive as Termies. Plus they lost their bolt pistols...

Things change and evolve. I find the randomness quite fitting for Chaos. Also none of the possessed abilities are worthless. They are all equally useful in an army. They also have other features like a 5+ invulnerable save and 5 Strength which is quite handy for an assault unit. I don't see what the complaint is over the unit since it is a good unit for the points it has.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2007, 15:54
it is good and fluffy unit and i like that change

only downside is cost - they are way too expensive (2-4 points too much - so they are simply not worth their points)

Baaltharus
23-08-2007, 16:22
Its a nice set of rules but many units are badly pointed and its very easy to make abusable lists.

I didn't do a good job of stopping power gaming, if anything its just as bad. Overall its a great codex if you play Chaos, if you don't then theres a good chance you may be a bit annoyed at it.

In this context I'm judging it as bad.

Stella Cadente
23-08-2007, 16:47
well I think the general consensus on all Forums, is that the new book is good, so its just a matter of waiting till everyone can buy it now

Damien 1427
23-08-2007, 16:53
well I think the general consensus on all Forums, is that the new book is good, so its just a matter of waiting till everyone can buy it now

...Really. The consensus I find outside of Warseer is the book is a pile of crap and a huge step backwards in terms of choice and matching the background, whilst at the same time leaving the door wide open for abuse.

The models, the background, all the fluffy bits around it, they're good. The rules themselves, the supposed meat of the product, are crap. I say give it two or three years and it'll be revamped to what we just had. :rolleyes:

Sureshot05
23-08-2007, 16:54
Isn't the poll a little premature as the book isn't out for two weeks? Even those with the army deal will not have had much of a chance to play with the new dex much. However, I have to agree model wise, the latest releases are superb.

inquisitor solarris
23-08-2007, 17:16
i like the disadvantage of daemon weapons but i really don't approve of the thousands son's 4+invunerable thy're chaplains walking around with ap3 bolters noooooooooooooo

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 17:51
I am unhppy with the codex. Its a bit of a mess. A serious lack of choice. Over priced, under powered units (i.e. possessed and spawn). The codex has a serious lack of logic ( e.g. the defiler is being labeled as a close combat model, yet, it has ok armour high points cost, and a battle cannon.) Or a personnal 'favourite': the dreadnought- the previous codex described the dreadnought as a support for troops, but because of the new take on fire frenzy, it will be shooting on its own units a lot. And the fact that the original traitor legions dont "exist" anymore. As in I cant do a (proper) pure death guard army. Disappointing.

Mr Fulgrim
23-08-2007, 17:54
ap3 and 4+inv sounds good :D, what does plague marines get from mark of nurgle?

Grazzy
23-08-2007, 18:11
I voted good because overall i think it is an improvement over the last dex. The new models are generally superb, with few letdowns. The codex is good but not excellent. It is better than the old dex in that it is not quite so open to powergaming. It is a little too restrictive though, as it should be the most diverse codex (along with maybe guard) because it represents such a huge range of possibilities.

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 18:44
Another thing that annoys me with this codex, is that it reminds of the eldar codex, in the sense of all the cult troops being mixed together to work together, each performing a different role, for example you have a unit of vanillia chaos space marines (which are sort of like the eldar guardians), then to give the army a strong close combat unit you will employ the Khorne bezerkers ( 'similar' to the striking scorpions) and so on and so forth. I am not saying that this is a bad thing as such, its just that if I wanted an army like that, I would do Eldar.

Also, I am a bit mixed about the plague marines. I am annoyed that only the plague marines are the only 'true' followers of Nurgle, and so they will get the feel no pain rule, and that the other units, such as bikes, lords, terminators, etc, will not benefit fully from the mark of Nurgle.
I dont like this because 1: The mark of Nurgle is the most expensive mark in most cases (with a cost of 50 points per unit) and I am not getting the full package (i.e. feel no pain)
2: This makes it impossible, to do a pure Death Guard army
3: Even if I tried to do a whole army with the mark of Nurgle, it will be really small and uneven. In that the plague marines can take the damage, however they lake the skills of massive firepower, and good close combat abilities. Where as the other units can do the damage but they will not be as though as the plague marines. Meaning that all of my other units will be targeted with heavy firepower and they will be destroyed. Thus leaving my plague marines not being able to do much.

Most likely I will start a Necron army, they are what the Death guard should be like. With 13 units to choose from (including the c'tan), 7 units get the we'll be back roll, and that can be augumented with the resurrection orb. Also when a necron has T5, it is a proper, natural T5. Unlike the plague marines T4(5).

NotElite
23-08-2007, 18:56
The irony is that the best of the new models are the least optimal of the units in the armylist:

Power for the points:
The Demon Prince is far superior to the Terminator Lord
Raptors, Chosen and Berserkers are superior to the Possessed

Sadly, the reverse is true if one is comparing only the models...




Most likely I will start a Necron army, they are what the Death guard should be like. With 13 units to choose from (including the c'tan), 7 units get the we'll be back roll, and that can be augumented with the resurrection orb. Also when a necron has T5, it is a proper, natural T5. Unlike the plague marines T4(5).

Enjoy it while it lasts. I'd not expect to see WBB in it's current incarnation when they redo the codex. The rumors are already starting. But hopefully GW will have come to their senses by the time they are redoing Necrons and Guard...

Baaltharus
23-08-2007, 19:00
Ok your just being overally critical and not considering how powerful DG are. They are incredably tough, they can have 4 strength 4 attacks on the charge and also the benefits of a Champion, to me thats pretty damn amazing close combat ability which can match and even surpass the close combat units of most other armies. Being tough as nails means DG will often have lots of warriors to return fire at close range and with bolters, plasma guns, flamers and melta guns which will often be to deadly effect.

Further more, the way things are going, armies don't get that much heavy firepower anymore and if they do they pay through the nose for it. Not only this but its your job as a commander to knock out the threats which pose the most threat to your units.

It sounds to me that if you can't win with this codex (which imo is the most powerful codex to exist at present) then you may as well try a boring no skill necron phalanx and hope that your dice as good to you.

colmarekblack
23-08-2007, 19:21
We'll find out when the codex is released. But from what people have said the LOS dual Daemon Prince/3 Vindicator army is going to be pretty common at GT's.
Haven't had a chance to look at the codex yet but I'll try my luck next week.

itcamefromthedeep
23-08-2007, 19:29
"It shouldn't take the best part of a day to write a 2000-point force" -Gav Thorpe

This idea is behind a lot of what happened to the Chaos Space Marine codex. The simplification, the ease of reference, the removal of restrictions, all boils down to making it easier to know and remember. Now, this is obviously not a problem for some of you. Too bad, you're not the only one who plays.

Now, I do think something was lost there. It is still perfectly viable to have a page's worth of options for some units, such as a Daemon Prince. The proof of this is in the Tyranid codex, under "Carnifex".

"Again, the idea is for both players to know, at a glance, what rules apply to squads" -Gav Thorpe

This one should be a no-brainer. It's okay to have lots of options, as long as they are all really obvious to the opponent. so "Spiky Bitz" should not be an option, because everyhting in the army is spiky. "Aura of Chaos" should not be an option, because it is difficult to represent on a model (and more then a few players would simply NOT model it). Daemonic Speed could be an option (for a Daemon Prince), but only so long as it is really *******' obvious that the guy is fast (as obvious as wings). "Inspiring Commander" would be a bad idea for an upgrade, while "Inspiring Icon" might. I would have preferred to have seen more options in the list, but not like what I saw in the 3.5 codex.

"No more appendix lists or variants, because lots of variant lists in a game system creat needless confusion for players, both in friendly games and at events like tournaments." -Gav Thorpe

I absolutely agree here. One list makes it easier to stop powergaming, easier for an opponent to understand what is going on, and easier to create a themed list that does not fit into the little boxes presented by having a huge number of varient lists. Players who want to make an army of Malal can now choose from any troop type in the book to represent the followers of that god, regardless of whether or not the army would be "unfluffy" if it used those troops as originally envisioned. If the player's Lord from the army's fluff would be best represented with a Daemon Weapon of Khorne, he can use that even if the rest of the army is technically a Slaanesh list.

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 19:31
Ok your just being overally critical and not considering how powerful DG are. They are incredably tough, they can have 4 strength 4 attacks on the charge and also the benefits of a Champion, to me thats pretty damn amazing close combat ability which can match and even surpass the close combat units of most other armies. Being tough as nails means DG will often have lots of warriors to return fire at close range and with bolters, plasma guns, flamers and melta guns which will often be to deadly effect.

Further more, the way things are going, armies don't get that much heavy firepower anymore and if they do they pay through the nose for it. Not only this but its your job as a commander to knock out the threats which pose the most threat to your units.

It sounds to me that if you can't win with this codex (which imo is the most powerful codex to exist at present) then you may as well try a boring no skill necron phalanx and hope that your dice as good to you.

Yes, plague marines are though, however, they cannot stand up to anything with S8 or more, and in the world of 40k, there are a lot of armies that can field a large number of these weapons, imperial guard, tau and space marines, are a few examples. Also, due to plague marines being 23 points per model, the squads will end up being small, and so they will eventually get thinned down by large amounts of small fire, a good example would be a 20 strong eldar guardian unit, with a weapons platform and generally thanks to eldar magic, this unit would be able to re-roll missed hits and wounds, thus that is a potential 40+ shots. Even plague marines will fail some of those saves. Also most Death guard units will have 7 models in them, I only need to lose 4 models and the unit cannot count as a scoring unit.

Also to the point of close combat, yes they can have a large amount of strength 4 attacks, however with I3 they will either be striking last or at the same time. In fact, even some imperial Guard will strike before due to some combat doctrines. The plague marines feel no pain will be useless to all powerswords, powerfists, lighting claws etc. Most likely, the plague marines will just get locked in combat untill they are wiped out. And that is a waste of a lot of points (216 points, is what they cost now in my army).

I have to say, I do not agree that the Chaos codex is the strongest codex now, mainly because a lot of units are too expensive, and they end up being too unpredictable, too much of an oxymoron, or more importantly they will end up dead. Personally I feel the strongest Armies are the space marines and the Tau empire. However they are just my opinion.

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 19:46
We'll find out when the codex is released. But from what people have said the LOS dual Daemon Prince/3 Vindicator army is going to be pretty common at GT's.
Haven't had a chance to look at the codex yet but I'll try my luck next week.

I honestly dont think that will happen, Daemon princes are even worse of now, because they have lost a lot of options, and they cant even have daemon waepons, which is a bit poor. And if you were to be using the same said force with as little upgrades as possibles, that will cost you 645 points (daemon prince-110+mark of slaanesh-5+lash of submission-20 x2; vindicator-125 x3). That is a fair amount of points for units that could die quick enough- the daemon prince is T5 W4 SV 3+ and a 5+ inv. and the vindicators armour is f/s/r/- 13/11/10. These tanks can be destroyed by any weapon with s6 or more and with no more mutated hull, there possibilty of increasing its armour is gone.

itcamefromthedeep
23-08-2007, 19:59
Another thing that annoys me with this codex, is that it reminds of the eldar codex, in the sense of all the cult troops being mixed together to work together, each performing a different role, ... if I wanted an army like that, I would do Eldar.

Dude, nobody is forcing you to put Noise Marines on the table beside Death Guard. You can, but you certainly don't have to. Armies that have all their bases covered tend to do better, so it might be advantageous to do that game-wise, but it is a little unfluffy. Yes, Cult lists should not be as powerful a list that includes troops from all of the cults. You know what, that just makes sense.


1: The mark of Nurgle is the most expensive mark in most cases (with a cost of 50 points per unit) and I am not getting the full package (i.e. feel no pain)

Wait, so you want to have feel no pain for free? How could you possibly say that that is fair. 50pts/units sounds rough if you field 5 models in it, but when you field 20 models that +1T looks like a steal to me.


2: This makes it impossible, to do a pure Death Guard army

Uhhhh, why not? Field Death Guard as your Troops, Typhus as your Lord, and a bunch of tanks with extra armor and maybe Daemonic Possession to represent the Nurgle infestation. Surely T6 Nurgle bikers are tough enough for you to justify fielding, as are Terminators, even if they do not have Feel no Pain. I really think that GW should have found a way to include Cult Terminators, but I think that you can live without them.


plague marines can take the damage, however they lake the skills of massive firepower, and good close combat abilities.

I thought you didn't want to play a combined arms force. What's with the waffling?

Mr Fulgrim
23-08-2007, 20:23
Plague marines cost 23 points and they get: a bolter, blight grenades (enemy chargers dont get their bonus attack for charging), frag grenades, krak grenades, close combat weapon, and a bolt pistol. they also get Fearless, +1 toughness (but it doesnt count for calculating instant death) and feel no pain. They are know I3 ( unlike I4 in the last codex).

ok!, but Does this mean they donít have true grit anymore? and another thing! can they use both bolter and bolt pistol/ccw in play?

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 20:27
To your response about the mark of nurgle. lets look at a terminator squad and a bike squad. 5 basic Terminators with the mark of nurgle costs 190 points (30 x 5 + 40) and I am only getting T4(5). With the bikes; 5 bikes with the mark of Nurgle cost 215 (33 x 5 + 50) and I am getting T4(6). However with the mark of Tzeentch, the terminators will cost 185 points (30 x 5 + 35) and you get a 4+ inv. save. With the bikes they will cost 205 (33 x 5 + 40) and with them you will get a 5+ inv. save, however if the bikes turboboost that save is increased to 2+. So in general, I dont think the feel no pain will be to much to ask....

Ravenous
23-08-2007, 21:15
Ok so chaos sucks and the sky is falling oh woe is us for the apocalypse is upon us.

Noted.

Now carrying on to the more imaginative complaints.

Baaltharus
23-08-2007, 21:16
Yes, plague marines are though, however, they cannot stand up to anything with S8 or more, and in the world of 40k, there are a lot of armies that can field a large number of these weapons, imperial guard, tau and space marines, are a few examples. Also, due to plague marines being 23 points per model, the squads will end up being small, and so they will eventually get thinned down by large amounts of small fire, a good example would be a 20 strong eldar guardian unit, with a weapons platform and generally thanks to eldar magic, this unit would be able to re-roll missed hits and wounds, thus that is a potential 40+ shots. Even plague marines will fail some of those saves. Also most Death guard units will have 7 models in them, I only need to lose 4 models and the unit cannot count as a scoring unit.

There arent that many armies that can field an adundance of str 8 weapons anymore. Tau only have railguns, fusion guns and seeker missles (going on memory) and marine armies under the redux can't field a great many of them anyway. Guard remain the one exception to this but time they've always been able to outshoot people and you should have learned to get around that by now. Light arms are all but useless against plague marines. To take your example 20 guided guardians with a star cannon fire at some doomed plague marines (over 300 pts of Eldar). In all likelihood they'll only kill 3, maybe 4 plague marines. You can get a fully equipped unit for 10 plague marines for those 300 pts (or you could drop an champ and have a rhino). The remaining marines, even if theres only 3 of them will then wipe out those guardians without a huge amount of difficulty even if the Farseer decided to help out.



Also to the point of close combat, yes they can have a large amount of strength 4 attacks, however with I3 they will either be striking last or at the same time. In fact, even some imperial Guard will strike before due to some combat doctrines. The plague marines feel no pain will be useless to all powerswords, powerfists, lighting claws etc. Most likely, the plague marines will just get locked in combat untill they are wiped out. And that is a waste of a lot of points (216 points, is what they cost now in my army).

Oh no your int 3, that is harsh...but wait theres a glimmer of hope! Being t5 and having FnP means that even combat units (assault marines, banshees, scorpions, incubi, nobz, kroot, hormagaunts, rough riders and even pariahs) won't be able to wound you far less get by your armour and FnP. Whoa your being charged by 100 Guardsmen striking before you...oh they killed 1 guy (on average, yes 100 charging guardsmen will down a WHOLE plague marine), well thats not too bad I suppose, now my 16 str 4 attacks and my champions.




I have to say, I do not agree that the Chaos codex is the strongest codex now, mainly because a lot of units are too expensive, and they end up being too unpredictable, too much of an oxymoron, or more importantly they will end up dead. Personally I feel the strongest Armies are the space marines and the Tau empire. However they are just my opinion.

TOO EXPENSIVE!?! Your men are armed to the teeth and they pay 1/2 a point for the honour of having 100% more attacks than normal marines. Terminators with plasma guns for 35 points? Oh thats horribly overpriced, I weep for all the Chaos players of the world, the fact that chaos combi plasmas cost 5 points less than those available to everyone else is just heart breaking. A daemon prince only costs 10 points more than redux SM commander but is SO much more powerful, again you got a harsh deal with that one.

Try thinking about these things and doing the math before you say the armies rubbish.

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 21:32
2: This makes it impossible, to do a pure Death Guard army

Most likely I will start a Necron army,
No, it doesn't. It means that you can play pure Death Guard, but you don't get as many overpowered / underpriced bonus rules. If the only reason you played DG was because of the power, then you should switch to another army.

Oh, wait, I see that you plan to do this. :rolleyes:

Damien 1427
23-08-2007, 21:35
Ok so chaos sucks and the sky is falling oh woe is us for the apocalypse is upon us.

Noted.

Now carrying on to the more imaginative complaints.

*Shrug*

I merely feel the list has lost a lot of character, not to mention many of the changes don't feel to have any more reason than "make it more like loyalists". No, really, I don't think Alessio and Gav wrote this. They copy and pasted the Loyalist list, stuck on some daemon bits and went and had a sandwich.

Feels like a rush-job, as I refuse to believe they spent more than a week writing this, and this alone. If they did, Alessio was probably drunk and Gav was probably on something illegal and sold in brown paper bags by shady individuals in back alleys, because the lack of effort, the sheer lack of work on it is painfully obvious.

I know Gav tends to browse here, but and whilst I'm not one to go on how he's the Anti-Christ of gaming, he ballsed this up good and proper. I can only hope this is quietly dropped and the book redone in a time-limit not usually assocated with microwave ready meals.

dcikgyurt
23-08-2007, 23:40
Okay, I'll just qualify this by saying that I do like the new models, but....

1. The new possessed are a little over the top for my liking, I'm going to stick with my converted SM (yes I used loyalist models and gaunt arms for my possessed).

2. The CSM have been given a few extra bits and 5 models to a sprue, but they are still pretty much the same as before.

3. The new terminator armour doesn't seem to be as ornate as the old models. Yes they are to scale with CSM now, but they look like a rush job.

4. Character options. Now these models are fantastic. The terminator lord has loads of options. The raptor lord looks spangly, and is going to be my raptor aspiring champion model (I think he looks so much better than the current AC model), the Khorne lord model looks half finished but comsidering the only other model that looks good enough to be used as a Khorne lord is Kharne this kinda makes up for the lack of modeling options.

Overall, I will probably only buy the new raptor lord model, but that's because I've got enough HQ choices, Terminators and Possessed anyway.

dybbukdude
24-08-2007, 06:19
no they arent good

byteboy
24-08-2007, 06:39
*Note this is not a complaint,so anyone who decides to flame me for this response will be reported as Flame Baiting.

The only thing I will have to buy is the army book, if I am to play with anyone in my gaming group. Not something I feel I should have to do, but I see no need to purchase anymore Tzeentch units for my Thousand Sons army.

I will take advantage of this "counts as" mindset everyone now has and use my Ushabti Spawn as Tzeentch style Obliterators. Other than that, I will not enjoy my new armies composition, but, like I said, if I want to play with people in my area, I have to bend over and take it.I doubt I will be talkative/cheery in the games. I will just be a "Rubric Player", playing for the sake of playing.

Other alternative will be to play an Egyptian themed Chaos army & see what happens.....

If that does not seem enjoyeable,then they go into my display case and I concentrate on my other 7 armies (2k points of SW/DA/DIY SM/Farsight Tau/Nids & 5k points of Necrons/IG).

Supremearchmarshal
24-08-2007, 09:32
Things change and evolve. I find the randomness quite fitting for Chaos. Also none of the possessed abilities are worthless. They are all equally useful in an army. They also have other features like a 5+ invulnerable save and 5 Strength which is quite handy for an assault unit. I don't see what the complaint is over the unit since it is a good unit for the points it has.

I actually do like the randomness, it was GW's inconsistency I was pointing out. You can end up getting a useless power if the scenario doesn't use inflitrators or if you buy them a rhino (almost mandatory for a CC unit that can't shoot) and get scouts ability.
As Acheron said, they definately are overpriced - almost as much as Terminators, and they lack their armour, power weapons and weapon options. And can't shoot. And can't Deep Strike. Their advantage is a slightly smaller cost, S 5 and a power that can be useless, or can give them power weapons which the termies already have (other powers are just not worth paying so much points for, except maybe rending, but that's a 1 in 6 chance).
In fact I think the Possessed are the second worst unit in the codex, right after lesser daemons (with these guys you can't even get lucky and get a useful power).

forthegloryofkazadekrund
24-08-2007, 09:43
2 friends of mine "played" slaanesh and thier armies are now being sold due to the new chaos codex as thier armies are either ***** or now cant be used

is it me or are the thousand sons a little bit hard if you have an army of them 4+ inv and ap3!!!!! force weapons on the leader and powers which are ap3 and ap1!!!, why bother fielding anything else

ha ha bloodthirsters - sorry generic greater daemon - cant fly and has a chip fork as a weapon as it gets only 1 ccw lol, might as well get the model and put warmaster wings on it!!!


Q - again is it me or are sm vets now better than chaos chosen in power armour????, oh look we hae infiltrate woooo a lot for 10,000 years, oh look so do those sm vets sigh