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ChrisAsmadi
23-08-2007, 14:08
So, I have some questions about LotR dwarves...

Which list is best (Khazad Dum, Erebor or Durin's Folk)?
What are some good choices?
Are Ballistae any good?

Cheers in advance.

Pertinax
23-08-2007, 14:31
Khazad and Erebor are the specialist lists. They have the characters. Durin's folk is the generic list, hence no characters, and a bit more limited as to what they can take, but better allying possibility.

The best choice in the dwarf army is probably the Dwarf Warrior. Stat-wise they are probably the best warrior in the game. Then sprinkle a touch of Khazad guard, and Iron guard into the army for flavour.

Ballista? Well, I personally woundn't field them. I find war machines too expensive for what they do. Especially against battle field targets. I'd rather take more men. But that's up to you.

Gondorian
23-08-2007, 21:52
War machines in my experience are only worth while in big games and sieges. I cry, when my 110 point trebuchet misses five turns in a row and then the enemy is too close to target.

However, at 60pts a dwarven ballista can easily make it into a 700pt force or even a 500pt force if needed. Keep it as far back as possible to really use the 48inch range and keep it with a good los to as much of the field as possible.

The models that should make up most of your army should be, those that you like the most. If you like Khazad guard buy a few if you prefer iron guard or like em both mix em up. Work the army around your favourite models.

Kroot Lord
24-08-2007, 17:30
Which list is best (Khazad Dum, Erebor or Durin's Folk)?

Erebor is the "best"- you can ally with almost (read: almost) all the 3rd age armies and you have a good, cheaper hero for 75 points which can become an awesome killing hero, a medium hero capable of taking down most and then a tank equivalent for LotR. The troops include everything and everything. Very good choice!

If you want to ally with arnor though, or fangorn or other, 2nd age, alliances (you do have less choice though overal) then you take Khazad-Dum- exactly the same as Erebor for choices except Dain Gimli and Balin are exchanged for Durin and Mardin (Mardin is a captain with an extra might and a spear and a special rule against trolls and with durin which you won't be using too often, but it does howver give a very, very nice stand fast bubble!) and Durin is basicly Dain except his axe has an extra chance to win the fight (basicly 4 attacks to win), has the FV of a king or balin/gimli, but doesn't support aswell as Dain does (less courage and stand fast).

Durin's Folk is actually pathetic as Balin costs the same as a king except has extra might and will, two handed axe and throwing weapons for the same cost (again). But if you REALLY want Dwarves and you cannot ally with any of the other two, then, well, Durins folk is for you. You don't have any spiffy stuff either!

What are some good choices?

A very short run down:

Heroes: all of the named heroes are excellent choices except don't go overboard on heroes and try and get a defence 9 (dain/durin) hero in there along with another hero for extra might and stand fast, but in lower games balin/gimli is fine. Captains and Kings shouldn't be touched (unless you need Durins folk to get dwarves). And the siege captain isn't good- you much rather have an extra ballistae and 15 points spent on extra crew for the same cost (well, 1 point more)

Siege engine. Since it has a cost of 60 points and is basicly a bow that scatters, it is excellent. I'm taking one to the tournament next month (350 points). I think it is definatly worth the 6 dwarves I'd have instead. Thats 2 archers and 4 with shield. First of all it has 24" range instead of the 18" dwarf bow range (NOT 48", Gondorian), triples the strength and you even get 2 models for the max amount of bows in your army. It works wonders when facing the Dwarf's most feared enemy the Uruk-hai, costing only a tad more then them but gaining pikes and crossbows. It helps them scatter sothat your archers and the ballistae will take out the enemy pikes (and with ballistae doesn't really matter). They will need to protect their hero, so this means putting a few uruks infront meaning a blog where your ballistae can target atleast 2 models and perhaps the hero- so always aim for the hero because you'll probably scatter into another warrior, but if you hit, the hero is as good as dead.

Iron Guard- Berserker expensive but losing 3 courage and a two handed weapon in trade for throwing weapons. Yeah? They also do not have body guard as you would assume them to have (Iron GUARD perhaps?). They are however effective when in sieges because when on ladders they get 2 attacks instead of 1. Overasll they aren't worth it as you can almost get 2 dwarves instead. Also low defence (for a dwarf) means they get taken out half as quickly as a Dwarf warrior with defence 7 or a Khazad Guard. (needing a 6 to wound instead of a 6 followed by a 4 against enemy S2 bows).

Khazad Guard- excellent and add your two handed weapons to the force. They are however not too cheap (but for 3 points extra then a dwarf with 2H weapon they gain bodyguard, extra defence and an exra strength- definatly worth it!) so I suggest first trying to get 3/5 of point costs/10 in warriors and heroes (so at 500 points 3/5 is 300, divide that by 10= 30 Dwarves and allies, so aim for 30 dwarves including any allies and then you should start thinking about adding other stuff). idealy this is 30 warriors so you have 10 archers. For the 200 remaining points you take dain and the rest is khazad guard and archers, for example. or dain, an archer and a ballistae etc.

Rangers- unfluffy, expensive and they suck. Mainly unfluffy and will not add to my force untill Murin and Drar will be allowed to lead them (what, you NEED a captain to lead the rangers?)

Warriors. They are so @#%&^&%$! good. AFter 3 years of playing with dwarves I've found it is best to focus arround warriors, adding a (named!) hero or two, and then with any extra points (have 8 points over? and don't want/need an extra crew for siege engine? Or have 2 points extra? just 4 points extra? Maybe 12 points extra?), mainly being between 2-8 for myself, you upgrade the Dwarves with shields to Khazad Guard. Banners aren't needed- 4 Dwarves insteda will provide much more use (unless using a vault army)

Vault Warden Teams. Amazing. You do not NEED the spear, who cares if you lose the fight, they won't be able to kill you any way unless they have a Strength of 5 or higher and a might point to up it. Use your spears to add an extra attack to Dain. Also adds somethign dwarves never had before- spears. Sieges this is great (set up 1 vault team tower shield for every enemy ladder, watch them cry out in frustration as they have to kill a Defence 9 shielding model with their 1 attack (or 2 or 3 attacks if they are heroes) and if they lose the fight they even have a chance of falling and killing himself AND other allies! Then position a hero or two with spear support down at the gate.

Are Ballistae any good?
Yes (read above). Always try and give them their 60" range. This greatly improves their range for only 20 points. Now you can out-shoot volleying enemies and shoot from turn one. The other thing ballistae's need is another crewmember or 2- 2 just isn't good enough.

Pertinax
24-08-2007, 17:52
If you are playing on open tables, I would strongly advise against vault teams. They will get surrounded quickly by more numerous foes.

Countsprattcula
24-08-2007, 18:32
My balista has done nothing the whole time i have took it, prehaps partly down to bad rolling but i think i has become obsoliote.

Also i wold sugest khazard-dum Durin is awsome! (but if you want a allied force Erebor or Durin's folk are a better choice)

Excuse the spelling!

Thanks, CS

Kroot Lord
24-08-2007, 19:33
If you are playing on open tables, I would strongly advise against vault teams. They will get surrounded quickly by more numerous foes.

This is very, very true. But then again you shouldn't be playing on open tables the whole time. Even if you do, you should always be careful with vault warden teams. I strongly suggest to put them near the middle. The Dwarves with shields should be able to hold the enemy from the sides with their high defence and fv. ANother thing when facing numerous foes which they often forget is attacking with spears! When people have spears they are almost always using what they are meant for- supporting troops. AGainst Dwarves this isn't too great a help though. It is MUCH nicer to have those spearmen attacking the sides where it is still 2 vs 1, but if the Dwarf loses he should be trapped, resulting in them being twice as likely to kill him. Hopefully the opponent would just use this tactic and probably be killed swiftly by your heroes.

In the middle the vault warden teams can't be trapped and even if they lose it will take an average of 36 S2, 18 S3, 12 S4, 6 S5/6, 3 S7/8 or 2 S9/10 hits to kill it. Chances are (belive it or not ;) ) that it won't die- especially not if trapped. When you do win the fight you have a high strength to deal with all enemy warriors on 5+ and enemy heroes on 6's (unless defence 6 or lower where they are also wounded on 5's). Even if they surround them they take a huge number of attacks before thye are finally taken down.

The spears are entirely a different thing, being only defence 5 eventhough the model definatly shows them wearing heavy dwarf armor, but I aint complaining! These your should really guard with your life. either set them behind 4 rows of Dwarves or a tower shield. Both will stop the opponent form seeing you, and even if they see you through 3/4 rows of Dwarves (bulky heroes help cover them up so putting him behind dain/balin works well too) they need to hit and then alot of in the way shots before being able to even touch him.

My balista has done nothing the whole time i have took it, prehaps partly down to bad rolling but i think i has become obsoliote.

Hmm. Interesting! Whenever I use it (them) it(they) is (are) a great tactical benefit by either wiping out half a dozen men at a time or scattering (or both!) the foe so that I can kill off one side completely and then surround them on their weakened flank.

Durin is awesome for fluff reasons. In-game he is pretty strong aswell although he leaks the leading hero abilities, having 1 less courage and 6" less stand fast is a HUGE impact on Dwarf lines because you don't want them clumped together but spread out.

Gondorian
24-08-2007, 20:46
First of all it has 24" range instead of the 18" dwarf bow range (NOT 48", Gondorian),

Is it?
I was under the impression that all ballista and indeed all siege weapons were range: 48inches unless stated otherwise such as the gondorian bolt thrower which has the short range special rule.
Hell, you can even give the dwarven ballista superior construction for even more range. The question there is whether the extra shots will kill an extra 20pts worth of the enemy.

Pertinax
24-08-2007, 20:56
All war machines have 48 unless stated. Quite right.

The dwarf balista is listed as having "Piercing shot (short).".

The question is if the "short" means that it's a 24" range.

Kroot Lord
24-08-2007, 20:58
For a moment you got my hopes up with it being 48" untill I checked Khazad Dum:

Piercing Short (short): bla bla bla (explains rules)

SO I'm afraid it is 24" range.

Superior Construction isn't extra shots (that's swift reload for avenger bolt thrower) but a longer range. I think you meant that seeing as you noted the 20 points for the cost (but the avengers upgrade is also 20 points) aswell as the "even more range" before that. Shouldn't be too hard. Its also for those anoying enemies who sit back and shoot or volley.

Also nice in Storm the Camp where you're in one corner with just the Ballista behind and the rets of your force moving towards the enemy.

Pertinax
24-08-2007, 20:59
About vault teams:


This is very, very true. But then again you shouldn't be playing on open tables the whole time.

When I say open table, I'm looking at a normal table with some terrain on, not overly dense, or a tunnel system. I'm thinking an every day table.

But as a rule of thumb, I would say less terrain, or at least less passages or gaps, less vault teams.

Kroot Lord. Just a quick question. Not intended as a compaint or anything, but you do know there is a quote function, that can quote either a single post, or mulitple posts? It would just make your last post a bit clearer, thats all.

Kroot Lord
24-08-2007, 21:09
Yeah I know about the quote (didn't about the multi quote though, thanks) and I'll use them once I've figured them out correctly (mainly multi quote)

Well the tuornaments I play in include a tunnel fighting board (woot!) with lots of tunnels (amazingly :p), a snowy board which includes bits of impassible terrain (steep hills), lots of islands connected by bridges and then some mor eopen tables (trees, forests, weather top and that sort of thing, oh and also a small village)

Vault teams could also be positioned in certain scenarios in a corner. In the corner you have an outer ring of vault warden teams and within a hero or even two, archers, perhaps even a ballistae and such sothat you ahve a line of high defence models with a good amount of shooting! This only works in very certain scenarios though.

Also as you stated in a post just before mine, the ballistae a is listed as (short), which i assume is the same as an avenger bolt thrower, and I play it that way aswell.

Gondorian
30-08-2007, 23:01
All war machines have 48 unless stated. Quite right.

The dwarf balista is listed as having "Piercing shot (short).".

The question is if the "short" means that it's a 24" range.

Good news lads (for dwarves atleast). As I understand it the dwarven ballista does indeed have 48inch range.

I believe that the (short) bracketed after 'piercing shot' refers to the piercing shot special rule.
A dwarven ballista hurls a model only 1D6 inches back.
An orc ballista hurls a model 2D6 inches.
Therefore I think it refers to this and this alone.

Also, I know that superior construction isn't more shots. It's an increase in range to 60inches which when playing on a large enough table, lets you hit the enemy a few more times at range.

I dunno, here's me helping the bearded ones and I'm normally a goblin player. ;)

Kroot Lord
01-09-2007, 18:43
Gondorian:

You bring up a very good point and it would definatly be very nice indeed if it was so!

I also think that paying 20 points to 2.5x the range is too cheap, wouldn't you think?

I think I'll go with the 24" untill I've called the rule boys, eventhough my greatgrand mother knows more about LotR then they do, because I rather have myself playing with half range then playing with double range and being called a cheater or whatever they call these days (keeps changing). It is always nice to have an extra voice/opinion on it.

Then again I won't be playing too much lately because my GW is closing next week saturday, but they are having discounts (-2 euro of blisters, -5 off box sets over 30 euros and -10 on the core games).

There is a good side though, that being there will be an independent stockist who often sell lower then GW prices.