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Killshot
24-08-2007, 15:21
I read this on another forum and thought I would post it to see what people here thought:

*One Book or 3?:

Well, this is probably one of the most debated topic amongst the "powers that be"...mainly because from a marketing aspect, you can easily break it down into three seperate books, and make more money that way...however, the Chaos community may not go well with this, as it's very frustrating to have to wait such long periods of time for our "next book". It is agreed already that each of the great followers needs their own Book...Beasts, Daemons and Mortals deserve it! GW has recently been putting forth effort into pleasing their current consumers however, and after a good talk with Phil, they admittedly realize that a single larger book encompassing all that is Chaos is possible, and it will sell! So the debate goes on...



*The Marks:

Not much is changing here, except for Nurgle. They're tyring to work a way for the high priced Mark to be worth it...originally Wounds were a big deal, but they're realizing that it doesn't matter how many you have, Combat Res still makes you Break. Fear is good, but not that good in a game where so many Armies now have Immune to Psych units, cause Fear, or have cheap models for high Unit Strengths or just high LD for charges...in the end, they'll probably just drop the points cost of the Mark, though there is talk of adding Cloud of Flies to units that have it! Khorne will stay relatively the same, but it's Frenzy will now affect the steeds (as it should be). Tzeentch may actually see and increase in points cost for some of it's Characters and Units to take it's Mark...Slaanesh's points is going up just a bit (5pts?) and Undivided won't change.




Characters:

There's definitely going to be a few new Character model options for the Armies of Chaos, most well be Beasts and Daemons...and a lot of Special Characters! Equipment options will change up just a bit for them, mostly having to do with 7th Edition Rules and Magical Weapons for Shaggoths. LD for Daemons and Mortals goes up +1, and Beasts Character lords may get back their +1 Toughness.



CORE, SPECIAL, RARE:

The current basic structure may change drastically! Talk of Khorne generals being able to lead Tzeench Knights into battle! I hope this isn't the case...however, the current set up for a Beast general making Beast's units Core isn't changing, though Centigors may indeed get moved to the Core status for Beasts. A few more unit options here and there, Ungor Scouts making a return, all the Daemonic Legions units becoming permanent, and some more Marauder units (returns!) as well as better equipment Options and some "standardized" options. The 0-1 limitations for units is long gone, so multiple units of Khorngors, Chosen Knights and the such will appear again! However, the hatred of Chaos "chariot" Armies is evident, and and one-for-one Rule may become standardized or they all get moved to Special/Rares.



Magic Items:

GW realizes that about half of the Magic Items available to Chaos players never get used...they'r either over priced or just under powered and not worth it. Much of the Orcs 'n Goblins direction of changes is to be seen in Chaos, though we'll get more than 2 magical Armors to choose from! Big changes will be in Magic Banners and Arcane Items...Staff of Change is gone, and there will be multiple banners for each of the Dark 4!



Magic Lores:

What we can take as Undivided won't chance except for Daemons, who I hear get to add Beasts/Metal to the mix. The 3 Lores of Chaos as it stands now will get a big lift. Slaanesh is loosing 2 Spells, and getting 2 others changed. Tzeentch will be made to be a bit more "effective" since it's so unpredictable. Nurgle will see the least in changes, except for Ranges...

Makaber
24-08-2007, 15:33
Sounds a bit dodgy, a lot of it. Other stuff sounds more plausible, but it's the sort of stuff anybody could have guessed really.

ZeroTwentythree
24-08-2007, 15:41
GW realizes that about half of the Magic Items available to Chaos players never get used...they'r either over priced or just under powered and not worth it.



This could be said for most armies.

mav1971
24-08-2007, 15:48
I like the sound of some of those changes if their true. Cloud of flies on Nurgle warriors or characters would make them worth taking. Leadership was one of the problems I had with them changing in the last book. I'd also like to see the return of the marauder chariot. Mainly because I made my one then they took it away in the current book.

Makaber
24-08-2007, 15:54
One thing that strikes me as odd, is how it's first claimed GW is aware that Fear isn't all it's supposed to be, then later it says they're increasing Mortal Ld by +1. Seems a bit counter-productive. I also think it's a really bad move: Chaos is the barbarian horde, and Leadership is supposed to be their Achilles Heel. Suddenly, a chaos lord is on par with an elf general, and that just doesn't sit right to me. Ld 10 should be something special.

Besides, they have a lot of Ld-bolstering effects as it is, they don't really need it.

MindSlave
24-08-2007, 16:38
sounds good if they actually do it... where did you hear all that stuff?

King Thurgun
24-08-2007, 16:48
About the one-book-in-three thing.

GW ran into this same complication with the 40k stuff. They have said that they no longer want you to have to buy 2 books to be able to use all the options for one army. However, there is also no way they could fit the entries for mortals, demons, and beasts into a single book. With all of the fluff, special rules, magic items, not to mention the new units you'd want to put in: demonic cavalry, demonic chariots, maybe the hellcannon (none of which are actually new but they're not in the main book currently), there would just never be enough room.

I think Demons of Chaos would be a great stand-alone army for fantasy: it brings another seperate race into the mix (not just another race of men or elves), it would expand on a part of the warhammer world that little is known about, the Warp, it has mechanics in place that make it synch up with other warhammer armies (Daemons are basically undead with the forest spirit rule!), and as plastic demons are coming out for Codex: Daemonica, you'd have all the models you need. Making 3 books would take a long time, but in the end, thats 3 chaos armies for all those chaos fanatics out there. What more could you want?

theunwantedbeing
24-08-2007, 16:48
Sounds alright really,pretty reasonable changes as far as I can see.

@makaber
what would these leadership bolstering abilities be?
As for a ld10 general...if you have a character as powerful as a chaos lord leading you,surely your going to feel your going to win
ld10 seems justified,especially if mortals(warriors and knights) get a leadership boost,as that'll bring them to ld9.
The lords and such would have to get ld10 if that happened,seeing as such beings would bolster the confidence of even chaos warriors.

Cloud of flies for nurgle troops....that would be borderline overpowered,but it would make nurgle troops actually considered,seeing as 99% of the population is under the belief that fear never does anything unless you outnumber your opponent.

There's no way chaos would fit into a single 80 page armybook,but implying thats what GW might try to do seems a bit silly.
It would be more like a 300 page book,somthing I would definitely buy,im sure many other chaos players would as well.

Killshot
24-08-2007, 16:53
sounds good if they actually do it... where did you hear all that stuff?

Sorry, I should have posted a link to the original message:
http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=11383

GranFarfar
24-08-2007, 18:20
@makaber
what would these leadership bolstering abilities be?
As for a ld10 general...if you have a character as powerful as a chaos lord leading you,surely your going to feel your going to win
ld10 seems justified,especially if mortals(warriors and knights) get a leadership boost,as that'll bring them to ld9.
The lords and such would have to get ld10 if that happened,seeing as such beings would bolster the confidence of even chaos warriors.



I would say re-roll psych, ItP and fear is 3 options which "bolsters" ld.
Increasing the ld for mortals is not something I fancy. I've always seen it as a Elves/dwarves thing. Adding it to another book might start leading to the same problem we have with Ws. The assumed basic is actually not very basic at all.


Edit: I think internal balance is also an issue. Further increasing the ld difference between beast and mortal risks putting beast characters behind.
Of course, this is not certain in any way. Since we actually don't know anything yet.

athamas
24-08-2007, 18:52
There's no way chaos would fit into a single 80 page armybook,but implying thats what GW might try to do seems a bit silly.
It would be more like a 300 page book,somthing I would definitely buy,im sure many other chaos players would as well.

heck if its that big they may aswell make it hard back... :D:D:D:


ill take two! [even if they do cost Ģ20] as you get ~3 armies in 1 book!

and if it is that bog they should limited hard back it... [thinks of something to say at games day...]

i would love to see chaos all in one place so looks good,



on those proposed changes, i hope they dont nuter slaaneshi magic [they should remove delectable tortures, and maybe delusions (cool spell but casuses havock with what is allowed ant what is not) or delicious excruciation , make enrapturaing spasamas better written, a 11+ spell and no 6... [maybe 12+]]

nurgle dont need that much of a change really, just a points drop...


should be interesting what they talk about at GD

Sentinel75
24-08-2007, 19:08
It could easily be one book. Even the original Realm of Chaos books could have been one book if they had left out the 40k parts.

Dayhan
24-08-2007, 19:37
Notice no comment made about chaos Warriors. There the one point nearly ever chaos general complains about and to leave them as they are would be a crime.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-08-2007, 21:15
Hmm, don't know. Most of it is something anyone could have guessed, and I don't believe they are activly writing the army list at the moment, as there are armies to be done before chaos still.

bhusus
24-08-2007, 22:35
Gorbad's point is most relevant here I think; from what I've heard they're working on HE right now and then its either VC or DE - I've heard next to nothing about new Chaos books until now...

athamas
24-08-2007, 22:39
i think the problem with chaos warriors is what to do with them... do you make then 'medium' infantry and drop the cost, or do you raise the cost and make them very heavy infantry...


and then you have to compare them to chaos knights, they cant be better than them, they can be equal, but not better, and how do you make chosen differentrt [one option would be to give them all 2 attacks each, make chosen upgrade cheaper, and put up the basic cost of knights... as chosen would only be a better save, and acccess to a banner]

Makaber
25-08-2007, 02:50
what would these leadership bolstering abilities be?

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Reroll psychology. Mark of Khorne, immune to psychology until defeated in combat. Mark of Nurgle, immune to fear. Mark of Slaanesh, Immune to Psychology. All daemons are immune to psychology. Most Beast of Chaos special and rare choices are fear causing as well. Good enough for you?

And your justification for the Ld 10 increase is pretty naff, truth be told. As I said, Ld 10 is something special, reserved for Elves, Dwarves, and Emperor Karl Frantz, the greatest statesman to have ever lived. You just can't go around handing it out to everybody under the justification that they're lead by some great guy who's totally rad. Ld 10 represents the pinnacle of military discipline and leadership, and sorry, I just don't see the marauding tribes of the north possessing that.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
25-08-2007, 07:10
I for one wouldn't mind a really big book for Chaos. As someone mulling over Beast armies with Mortal and Daemon followers, it is a bit of a PitA to switch books. Havin everything I need in one book would be a hell of a lot easier for me.

logan054
25-08-2007, 10:01
Yeah im for having another all in one book, its just so much easier!

Alathir
25-08-2007, 10:14
If they give them Leadership 10 I will be mighty sore, but not surprised as GW likes to give Chaos EVERYTHING. That is reserved for the 'elder' races and the undead (and Karl Franz) its meant to be a pinnacle of discipline and leadership, but also more than that, it's a slightly magical thing.

If the points for the units stay relatively the same then they definitely need to rename the book as I have NEVER versed a 'horde' of chaos in my life. Change it to Champions of Chaos or something, thats far more accurate.

T10
25-08-2007, 16:54
I agree with the stats/cost thing.

Marauders could easily be toned down to the straight-3 statline of regular Men, thus justifying taking them in large numbers, so large they night be considered a... I don't know, a HORDE?

While I would hate to see stat-reductions on the Warriors of Chaos, currently they are a bit too good to sell cheap, too expensive to use in great numbers and too vulnerable to take in minimum sized units.

Well, I'm going to skip speculating on what changes, if any, will be introduced...

-T10

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
26-08-2007, 12:06
Some of that stuff sounds ok and some of it sounds scary. I hope they don't do to Fantasy Chaos what they just did to 40k (generic demons).

I'd like to see a cheaper, more desirable Mark of Nurgle along with cheaper chaos warriors and possibly cheaper knights.

A demon book would be nice, especially if it means that demons get a boost. Right now I just use furies for war machine hunting because the other demons are pretty meh compared to mortal and beast options.

I'd especially like to see PLASTIC DEMONS! YAY!

And if they do a demon book then there will be plastic demons ... right?

kyussinchains
28-08-2007, 10:23
well, I hope nothing is done for chaos for a good while, I think that they're pretty much fine as they are.

I'm reserving judgement until the new book/books come out!

mav1971
28-08-2007, 11:15
I think chaos warriors, knights and heroes should have Ld 9 and lords Ld 10. They're not just evil human warriors. They basically sold their souls to the devil and in doing so they have some protection for serving their gods. Thats what makes them different from other human races.

Lets say your an Empire soldier or even a general going to battle against an army of chaos. There would have to be some sense of dread about going against that army compared to fighting Orcs or Skaven. But on the reverse side, the chaos lord and his warriors should be confidant in victory over some weak human soldiers or the dying races of elves or dwarves.

In a way chaos warriors are like the Spartans. They are not part time soldiers. Battle and destruction is a way of life for them.

ekxw
28-08-2007, 11:43
uhmm chaos book will come soon thats logical, cause you can use a lot of 40k chaos like standarts for each god, and helmets, we have new spawns and new and demons will be in plastic, for 40 k

chaos warriors are new models only 2-3 years, so they have just to change marauders, marauder chivaldry, hounds, and charriots for a mortal army.

i think thats very easy for them, so a new book will come soon cause plastic chaos knights were told to be finished.

and if you have the miniatures, an armybook will be created soon

cold0
29-08-2007, 05:00
Notice no comment made about chaos Warriors. There the one point nearly ever chaos general complains about and to leave them as they are would be a crime.

X2.

While I see good things in this preview of the future Horde of Chaos (army list composition, "useful" magic items, more characters), there is no comment about the Chaos Warriors. The Mortal Amry need more units and the Chaos Warriors must been changed. There are two ways to go: a) cheaper warriors with the today stats or b) stronger warriors with better stats or special abilities.

The only thing that GW can't do is leave the Chaos Warriors as are today.

About the one-book-in-three thing, I prefer 3 different books (Mortals, Beasts and Daemon); I fear that in the "big book" there will not space for all the 3 army lists (BG, units, characters and so on) and something could been cut or leave out.

And I really like to see incentives to play "mono" army lists: all Mortals for example.

Von Wibble
29-08-2007, 12:41
One thing that strikes me as odd, is how it's first claimed GW is aware that Fear isn't all it's supposed to be, then later it says they're increasing Mortal Ld by +1. Seems a bit counter-productive. I also think it's a really bad move: Chaos is the barbarian horde, and Leadership is supposed to be their Achilles Heel. Suddenly, a chaos lord is on par with an elf general, and that just doesn't sit right to me. Ld 10 should be something special.

Besides, they have a lot of Ld-bolstering effects as it is, they don't really need it.

You are forgetting that in previous editions chaos leadership was up there with elven LD. And a lot of people see chaos as an elite army and not a horde - hordes of chaos is a 6th edition name but not one applied to previous editions.

If the stuff on magic and magic items is true then this is great. Slaanesh having 2 spells gone- hoping its the 2 battlewinners that disappear or are at least toned down to merely being highly effective. Tzeentch getting better spells and losing staff of change is also good as it is never right that 1 magic item should be the basis of a whole magic phase build. Personally I think the mark of Tzeentch should give a reroll rather than a power dice, and Nurgle should give regenerate, but thats a seperate point.

It really wouldn't surprise me if chaos warriors got an extra attack for only a slight increase in pts. Compare them to rumoured high elf elites to see why. Marauders also would surely get something as they are currently identical to empire swordsmen for 1 more point without detachment rules (OK some weapon options but sword/shield tends to win out anyway).

Slaaneshi Ice-cream (what flavour is that anyway? Strawberry?) - surely when the 40K daemon codex is out there will be new daemons. That would be as good a time as any for plastics. Problem is that you can't see 4 kits being produced so how do you decide between horrors, daemonettes, letters or pbearers?

What I would like to see in a chaos revision is some actual chaos. I mean, atm the army is fairly ordinary and boring compared to whre it should be. Bring back gifts of chaos and lots of mutations for characters. Bring back chances of having characters whisked off to fight cosmic duels and warriors from both sides being resurrected because the gods want more carnage. Think about the name of the army book. 5 letters. Implying lack of order and true randomness. Something in the rules should actually suggest this.

Murderous Monkey
29-08-2007, 12:41
...it is never right that 1 magic item should be the basis of a whole magic phase build.

The humble dispel scroll springs instantly to mind!

I agree with most of what you said to be honest, Von Wibble. I'd like to see Chaos get more random options and some of the real character that they had in 4th edition, with all sorts of crazy things happening - the cards that were accrued within the game itself and could give your champions momentary boosts (with the chance to get spawned too, of course) or see them transported away in a blast of light to represent their master in a cosmic duel against some worthy foe. More magical items (that are worth using) and mutations giving similar effects would also be nice.

At the moment Chaos simply doesn't live up to its name and seems to generate quite a few lists that are very similar. Obviously people gravitate towards similar lists over a period of time but like many armies out there internal balancing issues mean that Chaos tends towards the tediously predictable at times.

There are so many areas left untapped for Chaos at present, and I'm looking forward to that changing. I don't know whether it will, but I've got lots of ideas of how I'll be writing my own army list if it doesn't!

Urgat
29-08-2007, 12:41
Changes to chaos?
Of course, Chaos is everchanging! :p

The only thing I want to see back from 4th/5th edition is Amon Shakai, so I can take my revenge on the bloody b****. Nah, seriously, they were quite a bit overdone, don't you think? I don't want to see them back, for the rest, I don't care, as long as the chaos warriors are not back to the semi-indestructible things they were in 5th edition.

pcgamer72
29-08-2007, 20:26
As far as LD goes, I hope Chaos Lords don't receive LD 10. However, I think that Greater Demons SHOULD have LD 10.

As far as Chosen goes... what about giving Chaos Warriors heavy armour to begin with and having Chosen merely give +1 LD? (and possibly an attack, depending on what other stats they change on the Warriors)

pabs
29-08-2007, 20:50
im new to playing chaos and as a new player to warhammer (not new to 40k)i think that a seperate book for every army would be awsome. and if you could give deamons armour that would be sweet

just askin but does any 1 know when this/these books are coming out to within 6 months or even a year??? :confused:

zak
29-08-2007, 23:29
Don't hold your breath!! Your looking late 2008 or maybe early 2009. You have to wait for High Elves, Vampire Counts and possibly Dark Elves before Chaos. Even if they leap frog Dark Elves you'll be buying them for Xmas in 2008!

WLBjork
30-08-2007, 09:39
I very much doubt Chaos will be in one book - Daemons got split off from the 40K Chaos Codex, and they are considering releasing the Legions as seperate codexes as well.

I'm also expecting "Chaos Undivided" to get renamed to "Chaos in all it's Glory" in line with 40K, for the same reasons as 40K.

I'm doubtful on Chaos getting Ld10 due to the review of the statlines in 6th ed, and that the direction of 40K is in toning down OTT armies - sooner or later this will happen in WHFB as well.

pabs
30-08-2007, 10:11
if they release all the chaos books as seperate do you think that they will do chaos dwarfs as well coz i would start collecting if thay expanded it a little

GranFarfar
30-08-2007, 10:59
I think chaos warriors, knights and heroes should have Ld 9 and lords Ld 10. They're not just evil human warriors. They basically sold their souls to the devil and in doing so they have some protection for serving their gods. Thats what makes them different from other human races.

I thought it was the higher WS, I, S and T which made them different from other humans?

Another race with great Ld is not needed if you ask me. And Chaos is one of the last books I consider needing a LD boost.

Khaeron Baoth
30-08-2007, 12:10
I would like to see seperate spellcasters and lords\champions with mark of Tzeentch, like in good old days.

Random elements would be nice, but not too much. I donīt like to throw dices for itīs own sake. Also some checking with unit prizes, I think that knights and warriors are little bit too expensive, not much however.

Chiron
30-08-2007, 13:56
I think chaos warriors, knights and heroes should have Ld 9 and lords Ld 10. They're not just evil human warriors. They basically sold their souls to the devil and in doing so they have some protection for serving their gods. Thats what makes them different from other human races.

Thats what the marks, chaos armour and magic items are for, leadership isnt about protection

They should just be immune to fear though, the chaos wastes are a nightmareish place to live (not cause fear, far to much does that already)

theunwantedbeing
30-08-2007, 14:17
ld10 greater daemons and daemon princes
ld9 lesser daemons

Add cloud of flies to the nurgle mark(maybe...)

Additional attack and/or weapon options for chaos mages

+1 attack for chaos warriors
chosen for warriors is simply chaos armour,only 1 unit gets it
perhaps free command groups

knights stay roughly the same,
allow some weapon options
free command maybe

Give chariots daemonic steeds at an additional cost

Greater daemons need a 4+ ward save as standard,lesser daemons get a 5+ ward,as well as being customisable to a certain extent rather than being a hugely expensive lump you cant change.

Being able to summon greater daemons should be brought back,as well as having posessed models.

Mutations should be included,and have them able to be added during the battle(although with the risk of killing your character)

pabs
30-08-2007, 15:42
i think that mutations should come back to they make your army look more chaotic and thats somthing unique that none of the other armys would have

mav1971
30-08-2007, 16:47
I thought it was the higher WS, I, S and T which made them different from other humans?

Another race with great Ld is not needed if you ask me. And Chaos is one of the last books I consider needing a LD boost.


Thats what the marks, chaos armour and magic items are for, leadership isnt about protection

They should just be immune to fear though, the chaos wastes are a nightmareish place to live (not cause fear, far to much does that already)

Ok its more about confidance on the battle field because they are protected by their gods. Good fighting stats don't mean alot without good leadership.

ekxw
30-08-2007, 20:38
uhmm make charriots and knights especial,like charriots, make marauders worth it also make chaos warriors worth it and make the marauder horsemen not count for the basic units, then you could talk about a well written book.

make demons worth it also a demos prince for less than 200 points not great status but something that dosent cost 300 points.

pabs
30-08-2007, 20:57
i think that the mark of chaos should change their stats like slannesh should get -1 toughness but they gain +1 movment and fearless

and khorne should have +1 strength but move like dwarfs and can always march

tzeentch (how do ya say dat) should have some sort of low magicial shootin or access to crossbows ar handguns

and nurgle sould have some rule about takin a shower naa only jokin they should have stream of corruption or cloud of flys

GranFarfar
30-08-2007, 22:07
Ok its more about confidance on the battle field because they are protected by their gods. Good fighting stats don't mean alot without good leadership.

Of course it does. You can often get away from alot of ld-tests if you have good fighting stats, and also you can't call ld 9 with possibility to either re-roll psych, be ItP or fear not-good ld.