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  1. #1
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Under a magical gloom

    Warriors of Chaos army book rumours

    The book is due November 1st 2008. It will focus on the mortal followers of the chaos gods, with more unit choices than currently, and next to no daemons. It will include Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths, Giants, Ogres and Trolls.

    The name of the book is Warriors of Chaos, around 128 pages and writteen by Phil Kelly

    New models in the first wave
    - Plastic Chaos Knights (5)
    - Plastic Marauder Horsemen (5)
    - Plastic Warhounds (10)
    - Metal Chosen Warriors with great weapons (assume two different boxes of 5, one with command)
    - Metal Chaos Lord of Khorne on Jugger
    - Metal Chaos Lord of Khorne on foot
    - Metal Chaos Lord on Chaos Steed
    - Metal Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle
    - Wulfric the Wanderer
    - Sigvald the Magnificent

    Coming up in febuary:
    - Plastic Daemon Prince(!)

    Spearhead box contains 36 minis and the army book:
    -5 Knights
    -5 Marauder Horsemen
    -10 Warhounds
    -10 Chosen
    -6 metal characters (Khorne Lord on foot & Jugger, generic Lord on steed, Nurgle Sorcerer, Sigvald the Magnificent and Wulfric the Wanderer)

    Battalion box is rumoured to contain:
    -12 Warriors
    -20 Marauders
    -5 Chaos Knights
    -10 Warhounds

    There is supposedly a second wave due in the not too distant future, with models for the Forsaken, War Altar, a new plastic Chariots and possibly even more things.

    How does this list combine with the recent Daemons of Chaos list and the Beast of Chaos list (due for an update in 2009)?
    The new books are all stand-alone, so there will suppsedly be no option to use the other books. However, certain units and characters from the Beast and Daemon books are appearing in this one as well (ex: Daemon Princes, Chaos Trolls, Dragon Ogres...). Note that although some units from the Beas book has been appearing here, that does not mean that they won't show up in the Beast book. If you want to, compare how the Warhounds were in both the Hordes and Beasts books.

    Army special rule
    All units in the army can re-roll failed PANIC tests. This applies to all units and is a replacement of the old Mark of Chaos Undivided.

    Marks of Chaos
    - generally Marks appear to be getting cheaper and the effect is the same on pretty much anything. So a Daemon Prince gets the exact same benefit from the Mark of Khorne as a unit of Marauders. The exceptions are when the rules don't actually work for that model, or would give it a benefit it already had (obviously the standard Mark of Slaanesh would be pointless on a Spawn since it is already Unbreakable).

    Mark of Khorne
    - Frenzy (though not for Giants or Spawn)

    Mark of Nurgle
    - attacking models get a penalty of -1 WS and BS

    Mark of Slaanesh
    - (almost) Immune to Psychology
    - Giants and Spawn gain the Always Strike First rule

    Mark of Tzeentch
    - 6+ Ward save (or +1 to your Ward save if you have one already)
    - Wizards also gain a +1 bonus to cast spells

    Magic items
    Magic items are no longer mark-dependant, so you could give a Lord of Slaanesh the Axe of Khorne and a Collar of Khorne, if you wanted to. There is a pretty balanced selection of items, with more weapons (naturally).

    Chaos Gifts
    These are in ADDITION to the points a character can spend on magic items, very much like Vampire Powers work. Daemon Princes can get 100 pts of gifts, other Lords 50 pts and Heroes 25 pts.
    Effects are similar to what you often find with Arcane or Enchanted Items. Nothing gives outright stats boost. As with magic items, what Mark a character has has NO effect on which items he can buy.

    Eye of the Gods
    There is apparently a table of chaos rewards that characters and units can get to roll on before or during the game. For example Chosen units supposedly start with a roll on this table, while characters supposedly get to roll on it after killing enemies in challenges and if they kill a Large Target. If you include a Warshrine then champions too can benefit from this.
    2: Gain Stupidity (no extra effect if you have it already)
    3: +1 Toughness
    4: +1 Strength
    5: +1 Attack
    6: +1 Armour (max. 0+)
    7: Nothing
    8: Magic Resistance (3)
    9: +1 Leadership
    10: Cause fear (re-roll if already causing Fear)
    11: Cause terror (re-roll if already causing Terror)
    12: Stubborn and 4+ Ward save
    Duplicate boosts are re-rolled. Effects last for the rest of the battle (sort of, see Warshrine).

    Chaos Magic
    There will be separate lores for the mortal followers of Chaos, they will NOT use the Daemon lores from the Daemon book.

    Lore of Slaanesh
    #1: Weak magic missile that also hampers movement
    #2: Enemy units within 18" must take Panic tests
    #3: Frenzy-spell (very similar to before)
    #4: Titilating delusions (very similar to before)
    #5: Make frendly unit cause Fear or Terror
    #6: Entire enemy unit must pass Toughness tests or take wounds with no armour save

    Lore of Tzeentch
    #1: Magic missile. Better and easier than the old Red fire
    #2: Enemy unit takes LD test, loses wounds equal to what they lost the test by
    #3: Enemy army cannot benefit from the LD of their characters. Enemy wizards miscast on any double. Remains in play.
    #4: Enemy unit attacks itself
    #5: Upgrade any friendly model to an Exalted Hero. Remains in play.
    #6 Infernal Gateway, cast on 15+. Does 2D6 hits at 2D6 Strength. On an 11 or 12 for Strength the unit is removed

    Lore of Nurgle
    #1: Sniper spell. Chosen enemy model loses a wound
    #2: Friendly unit gains Regeneration
    #3: Stone-thrower like attack. Casuses S1 hits with no armour save.
    #4 Cloying Quagmire: All models in unit must take an Initiative test. Those who fail must then take an armour save. If they pass the armour save after failing the In-test, they die.
    #5: Curse of the Leper. While in play reduces enemy S and T by 1 per turn. If reduced to 0 in either, they die. Remains in play.
    #6: Rot, Glorious Rot! Every enemy unit within 18" takes D6 Strength D6 attacks with no armour save


    Chaos Lord
    - some new metal models (a generic one on steed and a couple of Khornate ones)
    - heaps of options

    Sorcerer Lord

    Daemon Prince
    - doesn't have the Daemonic instability rule and is instead Stubborn
    - is not Immune to Psychology and does not have magical attacks
    - can Fly and causes Terror as standard
    - Marks actually DO something, unlike in the Daemons book


    Exalted Hero
    - Toughness 4
    - 20 pts more expensive than in the old book (for no real boost)

    - new metal model for a Sorcerer of Nurgle

    Character mounts
    Any character can ride any mount (though the god-specific ones require the appropriate mark and the same applies to chariots), apart from Manticores and Dragons, which are limited to Chaos Lords and Sorcerer Lords.
    - Chaos steed
    - Daemonic Steed
    - Juggernaut of Khorne
    - Steed of Slaanesh
    - Disk of Tzeentch
    - Palanquin of Nurgle
    - Chaos Chariot
    - Manticore (this was previously presented as a joke, but apparently it is true)
    - Chaos Dragon - takes up extra Hero choice

    Core units
    - there was supposedly a rumoured cultist unit, but that appears to have been incorrect, or possibly mistaken for something else

    Chaos Warriors
    - the boxed set stays the same for the moment, but there is a new direct order upgrade frame
    - all units get Chaos armour, not just Chosen
    - normal Warriors get 2 Attacks (but are still "only" WS5)
    - 1 point more than in the old book (for a much better stat line and with cheaper equipment)
    - all units can get a magic standard

    - presumably the boxed set stays the same for the moment
    - base cost 1 pt cheaper
    - all the same options as before (and great weapons are cheaper)
    - cheaper command options
    - can get Marks of Chaos

    Marauder Horsemen
    - new plastic set of 5 models
    - can get Marks of Chaos
    - can re-roll pursuit rolls if they wish
    - same options as before, but generally cheaper

    - new plastic boxed set of 10 models
    - only unit that does not count towards the minimum number of Core units in the army
    - can buy a 6+ scaly skin and/or poisoned attacks
    - were rumoured to not cause Panic in other units, but this turned out not to be the case

    Special units

    Chosen Warriors
    - now a separate entry
    - Weapon Skill 6, otherwise similar to Warriors
    - start the game with a roll on the Eye of the Gods table (re-rolling Stupidity and No Effect, so they always get something good!)
    - new set of metal models with great weapons
    - can be given Marks of Chaos

    Chaos Knights
    - new plastic boxed set of 5 models
    - 40 pts each, with stats equivalent to old Chosen Knights (i.e. 2 attacks, and chaos armour), though base S is now 4
    - units start with magical weapons that also give them +1 Strength (i.e. 5 total) and may swap these for (non-magical) lances
    - cause Fear
    - there is no longer any Chosen knights, though normal knights get nastier since they (like the new Warriiors) have the profile of 6th edition Chosen
    - can be given Marks of Chaos

    Chaos Chariot
    - new plastic boxed set at some point
    - can be given Marks of Chaos

    Forsaken Warriors
    - apparently a unit of Chaos Warriors that are on their way to getting a bit too many mutations for their own good
    - Movement 6, but Weapon skill 4
    - D3+1 attacks
    - Frenzied (bonus attack included in the D3+1)
    - hand weapon and heavy armour ONLY
    - Otherwise quite similar to Warriors, and only slightly more expensive.
    - They are human-sized guys and come on standard 25 mm square bases. They don't skirmish.
    - can't be given Marks of Chaos and have no command upgrades (actually no options at all)

    Chaos Ogres
    - start with heavy armour and can upgrade to Chaos armour
    - can't get shields, but otherwise the same options as before
    - can be given Marks of Chaos

    Chaos Trolls
    - base cost 10 points cheaper, but back to 3 attacks
    - If they regenerate 2 or more wounds in the same phase they get a roll on the Eye of the Gods table
    - can't be given Marks of Chaos
    - troll vomit is now magical(!)

    Dragon Ogres
    - can have a champion
    - base cost is a bit less and includes light armour, but weapon upgrades are more expensive
    - can't be given Marks of Chaos

    Rare units

    Chaos Giant
    - can be given Marks of Chaos (Mark of Khorne gives +1 S, while the Mark of Slaanesh gives Always Strikes First, the other two work as normal)
    - 20 pts more expensive
    - has a new special attack against big stuff (1/3rd chance) where it does D3 wounds with no armour save and the giant regains that many wounds (up to its starting number of 6 wounds). This replaces the Eadbutt attack.

    - considerably simplified rules
    - only take up 1 Rare choice
    - can't be Marked
    - can't get Gifts
    - now counts as a Monster & Handlers unit that has a ranged attack rather than a war machine (so if the crew dies, the machine has to make a monster reaction test on its own Ld of 4, for example)
    - fires like a stone thrower (which may or may not mean it can move and fire, though at only 3" per turn that might not matter all that much)
    - must pass a LD test each turn or move 3D6" towards the nearest enemy unit (presumably this works pretty much like a spawn) INSTEAD OF firing. It can use the Ld of the crew (9) instead of its own (4) if they are still alive
    - can't spew ichor anymore

    - still 1-2 per Rare
    - Mark of Khorne gives +1 S as before, while the Mark of Slaanesh gives Always Strikes First

    - noticeably cheaper than before and with a higher Strength
    - weapon options are more expensive
    - only take up a single Rare choice, not Rare + Special or Rare + Lord as previously
    - can't be Marked

    Chaos Warshrine
    - Quite similar to the VC Corpse Cart in that it is on a chariot base, but moves and fights like a monster. May not be joined by characters.
    - In the shooting phase, can give any unit within 12" a roll on the Eye of the Gods table. BUT you can only have one active blessing with it at any one time, so if you want to bless another unit you cancel out the previous one.
    - lets champions gain rolls on the Eye of the Gods table if they kill enemies in challenges (normally only characters can do this)

    Special characters

    - 685 pts
    - reasonably similar to what he was
    - Mount of the Apocalypse lets him ignore difficult terrain
    - there is only 1 version and he is still on his mount. As the Storm of Chaos is being glossed over by GW as more than a little bit silly, there will presumably be no mention of his failure in it.

    Galrauch (Chaos Dragon of Tzeentch)
    - lower LD, so higher chance of not doing anything
    - can't do anything on a failed test and makes half his attacks against himself (the other half against the enemy, if in combat)

    Valkia the Bloody (Daemon Princess of Khorne)
    - uses the head of a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince as a shield (reduces enemy attacks by 1)
    - magic spear gives her S7 and killing blow on the charge
    - NOT frenzied, but still has 6 attacks at WS9
    - somewhat weaker than a true daemon prince, with one less wound, no ward save and only causing Fear
    - works as a BSB for friendly units
    - lets all units re-roll results on the Eye of the Gods table, if they wish

    Kolek Suneater (Shaggoth Lord)
    - second-oldest Shaggoth
    - Strength 8 with 6 attacks and a weapon that does D3 wounds
    - several 8s for stats
    - 2+ armour save
    - can call down a special lightning attack in the shooting phase, doing D6 S6 hits to an enemy unit
    - attracts lightning spells cast within 12" of him

    Sigvald (Slaaneshi Chaos Lord)
    - has a mirror shield and can suffer from Stupidity due to looking at himself in it
    - Leadership 10 and Stubborn
    - he and his unit ignores terrain penalties
    - only T4, but his armour gives him Regeneration and a 1+ save
    - his sword gives him +2 A and always strikes first

    Wulfrik the Wanderer (Undivided Exalted Hero)
    - captain of a magical ship called the Seafang which he said around in. It basically allows him and a unit of Marauders to enter the battle from any table edge, similar to how Dwarf Miners work. Has no other magical equipment.
    - can decide who accepts the challenges he issues (from those able to)
    - gains +2 S versus one model nominated at the start of the game

    Throk, The Troll King (Troll Hero)
    - WS5 S6 T5 W4 A5
    - 175 pts
    - makes Chaos Trolls a Core unit, even if he's not the army General
    - all monstrous units (Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Warhounds, Monsters) can use his Ld (of 8), even if he is not the general AND they can also re-roll break tests
    - his vomit attack (called Copious Vomit) does D6 hits at S6 and can also be used as a one-shot S5 breath weapon that also ignores armour saves

    Scyla (Khornate Spawn)
    - an old special characer from 5th edition
    - re-release of existing model
    - upgrade for a Spawn, but treated as a character
    - faster than a normal spawn, higher WS, S, W and A

    Vilitch the Curseling (Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord)
    - when his opponent fails in an attempt to cast or dispel a spell, Vilitch gets the dice used and may use them during that magic phase (a failed attempt to cast gives him dispel dice, and vice versa)
    - knows all the Tzeentch spells

    Festus the Leechlord (Nurgle Sorcerer)
    - a level 2 sorcerer that always knows Curse of the Leper as one of his two spells
    - gives his unit a 5+ regeneration save and poisoned attacks
    - makes his unit only pursue d6", but if they catch their enemies they gain double VPs

    Stuff NOT in the new book
    -any sort of skirmishing unit
    -any sort of flying unit
    -any kind of generic daemon unit
    -any sort of item that allows you to take units from the daemon and/or beast books
    Last edited by Avian; 03-10-2008 at 14:58.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
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  2. #2
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    Thanks to Vogon, loveless and silashand for infos and pictures of this upcoming Chaos Warrior miniature.

    Discussion here.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    Some model rumours:

    Quote Originally Posted by 75hastings69 View Post
    Sorry I forgot about those, I did hear they were planning a plastic lord and a plastic sorceror kit, so along with knights, chariots and hounds that would be 5 new plastic kits. Guess we'll know for sure nearer to november.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
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  4. #4
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    Thanks go to Nightsword for putting all these rumours into one post.

    Quote Originally Posted by From The Warhammer Forum, Originally Posted by Vladamir
    Hey guys, got some info about the upcoming hordes of chaos white dwarf update:

    Chaos chariots and knights are special choices, chariots have dropped down to 100 points

    Marks are the same, with some points changes. Mok may not generate dispel dice, but costs signifigantly less.

    No furies

    Chaos warriors have dropped in points (down to 12 )

    Cost to upgrade a unit to chosen costs 1 point less

    No daemons

    Might still be able to ally with beasts

    Hellcannon is an army choice now! Still takes up 2 rares though...

    Thats it for now. Quite pleased with the changes to the points cost of the warriors, but not happy with some of the choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revlid
    More info, in order of reliability:

    Mark of Nurgle is scads cheaper. (at last!)
    Sorcerers can have the Mark of Tzeentch - I think it gives them some sort of re-roll.
    Mark of Khorne only generates Dispel Dice for characters.

    Daemon Prince might still be available.

    Chaos GIANT will be in the list as a Rare.

    Flayerkin will supposedly NOT be in the list. IF they are, they will be altered to be more generic beserkers than Skaven siege-weapons, and they might not even be called Flayerkin.
    Although yes, the Hellcannon will be. (with a nice Fluff blurb about Chaos Dwarfs)

    There will be a Magic Item (sacrificial knife?) that is related to the Zealot class from Age of Reckoning.

    Chaos Spawn are the same, although their Marks may have changed a little to be more in line with the effects of Daemonic Loci.

    Marauders will not have access to Marks.
    However, a new Core (or Special?) infantry unit, Cultists, will have access to slightly altered (Spawn-esque) Marks. They will be less 'Fighty' than the Marauders, with no armour, less WS/I, and only access to 2HW and Flails. The pictures for them are apparently converted Flagellants, so there might not be new models?

    Allying with Beasts of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos is possible, but requires Magic Items. Chalice of Chaos (?) allows you to take some Daemonic units as Special, and Totem of Chaos (?) allows you to take some Beast units as Special.

    Mutants were mentioned - possibly as character upgrades (unlikely), a new Special unit in line with the Age of Reckoning Marauders (possible), or even a unit in the next Beasts of Chaos book (no idea). Might be the same unit as Cultists/Marked Cultists, and I'm just confusing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revlid, again
    Okay, a wee bit confused but far more knowledgeable, I managed to talk to the guy who says he's seen the early version of the list.
    Unfortunately, he's an exclusive 40,000 player, who wouldn't know a Movement value from a longbow, and only got a glance.

    What I gathered was enough to muddy the waters on the Mutant/Flayerkin/Berserker issue even further.

    Apparently there are (along with the Chariot and Knights) three new special choices, described as (and I quote) "Marauders, Mutants, and Mutant Marauders". Obliviously this seems to refer to Mutants, Flayerkin/Berserkers, and a new Marauder unit (those of you who want a more Northern theme, rejoice).

    Or, given his confusion, it might refer to two new units - either Mutant Marauders and Mutants, or Marauders and Mutant Marauders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatine Katinka
    The list is going to be in White Dwarf in about a month and a half (the same issue as Mordor release, the one after Daemons) so it has definitely been written and probably gone to print.

    I'm saying it's in the Mordor issue because the poster in my local GW for the current 3 month sub offer has a picture of the cover for the Mordor release issue and it has in the list of main articles "Warriors of Chaos Army List".
    Quote Originally Posted by theblackmage
    Hey guys, i've been lurking for a while, when i heard some guys talking at my local store - one was a redshirt, not sure how much that means.

    They were talking about the new WD chaos list.

    Apparently, marauders and chariots will cost a bit less, but chaos warriors will get an even bigger price drop. There aren't going to be any new models for the WD release, but there will be a plastic chariot, plastic warhounds and plastic characters boxes, as well as a plastic mounted unit (they were talking about new horses).

    Then they started talking about a new core unit called chaos zealots. They're infantry (with poor leadership?) and two handweapons (they were talking about how many attacks you could get) who can be given marks to make them into thrall wizards (tzeentch), plague zombies (nurgle), or something frenzied (khorne). Slaanesh wasn't mentioned. The other guy said something about a magester, i don't know if that's a new character or a champion.

    The redshirt asked about the daemon book, and daemon Princes are still around, and they let you take daemon units as special! Flayerkin are special, but they don't have their siege rules (no chains) and aren't moulder. There's a special unit of marauders, who might be called raiders?

    Chaos trolls, chaos ogres, and minotaurs aren't in the list - they're in one unit, called chaos monsters or brutes or beastkin or something - i couldn't hear properly. They can be upgraded into trollkin, ogrekin or werekin.

    Rare choices are spawn, hellcannon and GIANT.

    Lord of Chaos can be mounted on horse, daemon, dragon, or a big (but not large target) monster thing.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
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  5. #5
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    Some rumours about the temporary list that is coming in the June White Dwarf (and to the GW website soon after that):

    Ok - Just had a phone convo with someone who had the new white dwarf
    sat in front of them. New white dwarf list includes.

    Chaos lord
    Chaos sorcerer
    Daemon Prince

    DP seemed to be the Hordes DP (fly/terror) but with true ward save.
    However he had NO access to any gifts.

    Mark of Khorne gave MR1 and frenzy
    Mark of Slaanesh gave ItP
    Nurgle gave fear (think still +1W but didn't ask)
    Tzeentch costs 10 points and gave a 6+ ward......?!!! Goodbye warrior
    mage.(20 points for units to have 6+ ward)


    Warriors 12 points, + 5 chosen (one unit). Same stats.
    Marauders, same
    Warhounds, same

    That's it. No cultists.

    Marauder Horsemen

    Chaos Giant.

    Magic Items
    Most have been thrown away with nothing to replace them. All magic
    items including the common ones fit on a single page.

    There were no decent weapons and the sword which used to turn you into
    a GD now just adds +1 to a few stats.

    Didn't notice any changes here except the +1T armour may have disappeared.

    Crown of Regen and Golden Eye. That's it.

    Helm was still about

    Staff of Change gone up to 70 points plus can only be used for casting.
    Power familiar renamed chaos famililar and down to 40 points.
    Skull of Katam still the same.
    Think spell familiar disappeared as did everything else.

    125 stubborn banner and banner of wrath power Lv 5. That's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaine View Post
    Saw the list myself in GW this afternoon (they had printed out copies)

    Heres what i recall


    Warriors (12pts, +1pt shield, +5pt chosen)
    Mauradors 5 pts
    Hounds (dont count towards core)


    Chariot (2 = 1 choice) - note heros on chariots use up a chariot slot
    Mounted Mauradors

    Cannon (uses 2 rare)

    Korne - Frenzy (no longer provides + 1 dispel dice) was 40pts on warriors
    Nurgle - Fear
    Slan - Immune to psy
    Tz - 6+ ward save (if on a mage, he can choose from any lore)
    No - undivided bonus anymore

    Demon prince was in the lord choice and used lord+hero slot

    Thats pretty much what i remember
    Last edited by Avian; 08-05-2008 at 19:17.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
    Terrain Log - Circle Orboros themed terrain for Hordes

  6. #6
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    A more comprehensive description of the list:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbad View Post
    Well, I got a chance to read with my own eyes the new Chaos list today. Fortunately, I also had my current Armies Book on hand to compare with, and a handy pen and notepad to note down any changes.

    Suffice to say that the rumours at the start of this thread appear to be only the tip of the iceberg in terms of lousiness…


    The list contains no Cultists. No mention of them at all. In fact, there are no more Mortal units added to the very tiny number previously in HoC at all, unless you count the Giant and Hellcannon.

    It’s worth adding though, that the new list removes many options for Chaos players, such as Bloodletters, Bestigors, Daemonettes, Great Unclean Ones, Shaggoths, Ogres, Horrors, Screamers, Minotaurs, Nurglings, Dragon Ogres, Bloodthirsters, Tuskgor Chariots, Keepers of Secrets, Centigors, Plaguebearers, Furies, Lords of Change, Flesh Hounds and some other stuff besides. So, you know, a lot.


    First of all, the Mark of Chaos Undivided is gone.

    The Marks have the same effects for Lords, Heroes, Warriors, Knights and Chariots (Daemon Princes are the sole exception). Sorry, don’t have points costs.

    Khorne – Frenzy. Proper frenzy that affects mounts, not the bizarre “only exception in the whole of Warhammer” old frenzy they used to have. Dispel dice are gone (no Magic Resistance either).

    Nurgle – Fear (no extra wounds)

    Slaanesh – Immune to Psychology

    Tzeentch – 6+ Ward Save. Sorcerers can choose from any Lores in the Warhammer rulebook.

    And whilst we’re on the subject of Lores… the Lores of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are gone. Non-Tzeentch Sorcerers can choose from Fire, Death and Shadow. I was hoping they’d retain some level of coolness and bring back the option for Heavens (like in the old Ravening Hordes list), but alas, that would be too imaginative.

    The Mark of your General has no effect upon Army Composition and units can be mixed in the army freely. Feel free to abuse the Chaos background as you see fit.


    The list has three Lord options, and indeed three options for Heroes, Core, Special and Rare too. 15 options in the whole army…Christ…

    No Special Characters are available at all.

    Chaos Lords have the same statline as currently and, as with every character in the list bar Daemon Princes, are 10 points cheaper. Nothing much to say here except that their weapons options are preposterously expensive – 20 points for a great weapon, 15 for a halberd, extra hand weapon and flail. The award for “most amusingly and blisteringly stupid decision of the list” goes to the person who decided to make a shield cost 15 points for a Lord, when the Enchanted Shield is still available for 10…

    Exalted Sorcerers are 10 points cheaper and use the Lores mentioned previously.

    Both these two have access to a Chaos Dragon, which has exactly the same stats and points cost as present. Breath weapon attacks have been tweaked though – one is Strength 3, the other is Strength 2 and Armour Piercing.

    Chaos Steeds are unchanged. Daemonic Mounts (which now stand in for Juggernauts, Boob-Snakes and Discs too…sigh…) have changed dramatically in line with the Daemon’s list – same cost and statline as currently, but with only one Wound, +1 Initiative and a drop in Ld (bizarrely). Characters also have the option of a Chariot for +100 points, same as normal entry except they displace one of the crew.

    Daemon Princes are still in, but without Daemonic Gifts. They use up one Lord and one Hero choice, in defiance of current convention for gaming philosophy. Stats the same except they have Initiative 7 for some reason. Daemonic is out, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, 5+ Ward Save and Magical Attacks are in (Terror, Fly and Unit Strength 3 Special Rules retained too). 50 points more expensive than they currently are. Marks as below:

    Khorne – Frenzy, Magic Reistance. Think it’s MR 1, but I’m not certain, sorry.

    Nurgle – Toughness 6.

    Slaanesh – Always Strikes First

    Tzeentch – 4+ Ward


    Exalted Champions are Toughness 5. It’s a stupid decision since, combined with the points drop of 10, it makes upgrading Aspiring Champion to Exalted for +20 points an even more no-brainer choice than it is now.

    Sorcerors drop 10, as do Aspiring Champions. As currently, only Aspiring Champions can be a BSB, which is the only possible reason to consider taking one (especially since they can’t ride Daemonic Steeds either). Both Champions continue the trend of ridiculously costed weaponry.


    Warriors of Chaos drop to 12 points in a rare instance of Games Developer sanity. No other changes that I can tell, except that ANY unit can take a Magic Banner under 50 points (which, as you’ll see from the Magic Items section, isn’t really an advantage…) and Chosen upgrades cost +5 points a model now.

    Marauders are the same except commands are more expensive, since lord knows that +10 points for +1 Attack was so game-breakingly unbalanced right now. Warhounds are unchanged, still don’t take up Core, which means you HAVE to include Marauders or Warriors on foot in your army. Why do you hate me GW?


    Knights are now Special and cost 5 points less a model than before, with a Chosen upgrade now + 10 points. Any units can take Magic Banners now. I would have liked to see S4 with a very expensive option for a Lance (so, you know, people can use their old models) but what’re you gonna do.

    Chariots get a large points break and cost 100 points. 2 can be taken as one Special choice (cos that’s far less unbalanced than Goblin Chariots, apparently).

    Marauder Horsemen are now Special. Apparently, I must be very stupid, because to my puny intellect this seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. Throwing axes cost only 1 point and the option for Shields is gone. Feel free to continue buying shielded horsemen in the shops though.


    Giants and Hellcannons are in, with Hellcannons taking up two Rare choices. Apparently, the team at WD decided that too much space in the article was taken up with the sheer multitudes of other units in the Chaos list to justify printing the rules for these. Which means you’ll have to buy Storm of Chaos and Beasts of Chaos to use them. Yay.

    Spawn are here too, same points, same rules, except the option to customise your Spawn to make them interesting and unique is gone. Why…?


    VAST numbers of Magic Items have been cut from the list, with nothing given in return. I’m going to lay off with the criticism for this mind, since it is just a get-you-by list after all (though a simple note “Don’t take Daemons with your Hordes list” and leaving it at that would have made this whole process much easier…)

    The cost of Common Magic Items is constant, except the Biting Blade (5 points) and Sword of +1 Attackeyness (20 points). Amusingly, this means that for a Chaos Lord, the Sword of +1 Attack and an Enchanted Shield costs the same as a shield and additional hand weapon.

    5 Magic Weapons. The Chaos Runesword is 60 points, for each wound caused by the character (in combat?) they gain one wound themselves. Chaos Daemon Sword (50 points) gives +1 WS, +1 S and +1 A, with any rolls of a one to hit attacking the character bearing it. Whip of Pleasure is down to 40 points but otherwise unchanged, Filth Mace and Axe of Khorne are the same as now.

    4 Magic Armours. Chaos Runeshield, Armour of Damnation, Bane Shield and Crimson Armour of Dargan. All exactly the same as now.

    2 Talismans. Crown of Everlasting Conquest (no change), Golden Eye of Tzeentch (now 40 points). Collar of Khorne has been moved to Enchanted Items, see later.

    3 Arcane Items. Staff of Change costs 70 points and no longer exhausts itself when it actually does something useful. Skull of Katam remains unchanged. There’s a new kind of Familiar, Chaos Familiar, which gives +1 Power Dice and +1 Dispel Dice for 40 points.

    2 Enchanted Items. Helm of Many Eyes is still in unaltered (surprisingly, actually) and the Collar of Khorne has been moved here, costing 25 points and providing a Magic Resistance of 3.

    2 Magic Banners, which since one costs 125 points makes the whole “any unit can take a Magic Banner of 50 points or less” kind of pointless. Banner of the Gods and Banner of Wrath are largely unchanged, except the Gods now has a much more useful range of 12” and the Wrath now comes with a Power Level of 5.

    This is all I have noticed so far, apologies for what is a duplication of earlier posts. Any other questions, feel free to ask away, and I’ll answer as best I can.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
    Terrain Log - Circle Orboros themed terrain for Hordes

  7. #7
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Mar 2005
    Under a magical gloom

    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    This was posted by Stovaa on
    Based on stuff that may, or may not, be 100% true but from someone who went to GW HQ and purports to have learned this there...

    In the upcoming rules (the book, not WD):
    Chosen are a seperate unit slot from Warriors, and Chosen Knights have "stats to rape a blood knight."
    Normal chaos warriors are WS6 with 2 attacks, wearing chaos armour.
    Plastic box sets for Knights, Hounds and Marauder Horsemen, all £12. 5 of the Knights and Marauders in there, unsure of Hounds, possibly 10.
    Two new units in the list, one of which is a unit of semi-spawn chaos warriors. Can't remember what the second unit was.

    New models for Chosen, apparently very large and impressive.
    Chosen Knights have lances, or a lance option.

    Can't remember anything else right now, but it made my mouth water at the thought.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
    Terrain Log - Circle Orboros themed terrain for Hordes

  8. #8
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    More rumours about the upcoming book:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aries View Post
    Ok, I've only been loosely following this thread, because most of it has been hogwash and pipe dreams, or severely off topic.

    I got in contact with my guy to ask some questions about DE, because people are hounding me. BUT, I did get some stuff on what he knows about what they tested for Warriors of Chaos.

    1. Chaos warriors- All have chaos armor and shields, with the same stats as now. ( i.e. no 2 attacks).
    2. Cultists are stats like a human- ws, s, t, i = 3. You can give them 2 hand weapons, flails, or shields. They can have a "mark" but its different.
    Tzeentch gives them 6+ ward save
    Khorne gives them hatred
    Nurgle gives them poison
    Slaneesh gives them ASF.
    3. Marks are cheaper overall, and different for characters than for units. Khorne was tested with hatred, and with frenzy, and with +1 str. He doens't know what was chosen, but he made the recommendation to do +1 str.
    4. Ogre Mutants are around 30 points for a model with m 6 ws 3 str 4 t 4 a3 ld7 and you give them ONE upgrade from 15-25 points. One gives you +1 ws and LD, one gives you +1 str and A, one gives you -2 LD and regen, and one gives you +1 m and scaly skin save.
    5. Hellcannon is still in, and takes up only 1 slot, but cannot have 'gifts'
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
    Terrain Log - Circle Orboros themed terrain for Hordes

  9. #9
    Prince of Croooows! Garanaul the Black's Avatar
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    Aug 2005
    Gone, but not forgotten.

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Originally posted by General Misdemeanour on the Golden Throne site:

    Next big thing for fantasy is the hordes of Chaos re-release - according to my manager, that's happening in November.

    Where the previous Hordes book focused on all manner of chaotic entities from the entire realm of chaos and the chaos wastes, this one will be more themed towards the "armies of the north", as my boss put it. First of all, miniatures will include new metal lords (foot and mounted) which are apparently so detailed as to be mistaken for special characters - incidentally, there will be at least one new special character to add to Archaon and Galrauch, the model for which is apparently drool-inducing. Plastic knights are confirmed, possibly with chosen mutation upgrades and marks included in the kit.

    New units for the book include the chaos giant and hellcannon, as seen in the temporary "get-you-by" army list, most likely with some clarified rules for the Hellcannon. Also making an appearance will be a unit called "forsaken" - according to Phil Kelly, in a conversation with my boss, the book will follow both the upward and downward paths of chaos - so, as well as the usual marauder > warrior > chosen > aspiring champ > exalted > Lord > daemon path to glory, there is also a path to spawndom that includes the forsaken; regular folk who sprout mutations and are accidentally damned by the gods with their over generous "gifts". I think these guys are gonna be the mutant marauders that were mentioned or guessed upon some time before. I think its a nice addition, as it means you get crazy bonkers mutant hordes supported by spawn and beasts, as well as the disciplined serried ranks of warriors and champions.

    Another addition that the boss seemed very keen on was a sort of "blessing of the gods" table for champions/lords - as they fight challenges with enemy characters, the gods bless them from on high, mid-battle. I don't know how its supposed to work or what exactly you get from it, but it seems that getting your chaos characters into serious bust-ups will be rewarded on the spot, increasing their power and ****-kicking abilities. This ties into the idea that the entire book will be geared towards very offensive armies, that require very agressive playing styles.

    Not much word on marks, but I think they are (fluffwise at least) becoming a bit more generalised. The idea is that in the north of the old world, life is tough, so everyday the peoples there pray and submit to the four gods for mere survival - on the eve of battle, they pray to khorne for strength, in a season of plague or famine, they pray to nurgle for relief, at parties they pray to slaanesh, etc, with certain tribes having a certain favourite that they worship above others. I wasn't told how this was to work in game terms, but the fluff seems a bit more realistic. The one thing I did hear was that the Mark of Undivided is going, but its effects are staying - again, life is hard for all northmen, so they are hardy and brave beyond reason, so most units in the army get to reroll break tests as standard.

    This is what I've heard from the black shirts above me from their preview of it at HQ, so don't kill me if I've misunderstood something or been told wrong.

    As always, take it with a handful of salt, but could be interesting.

    It's on Random: A mostly Chaos Space Marine PLOG.

    ++Veteran of the Long Painting War++

  10. #10
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    From the GW Studio Open Day:
    Quote Originally Posted by kragnorak
    I also managed to see the new Chaos Marauders mounted, picture warriors straight out of Conan the barbarian and you wont be far off. They even have new steeds that look amazing.

  11. #11
    Chapter Master logan054's Avatar
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    Jun 2007

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    One of the developers (I think it was in an interview for the Chambers of the Everchosen) basically admitted the White Dwarf List was a phone-in job, and shouldn't be indicative of the next list.

    Rumoured list so far:

    Special Rules:
    'Mark of Chaos Undivided' no longer exists. Instead, it is an army-wide Special Rule justified by the fact that Norsemen are Just That Hard.
    The other marks have also been changed. How is not specified, although I for one pray to Tzeentch not to 'bless' each of my Warriors with a Talisman of Protection.
    The marks are, as in Daemon armies, designed to work together, although this is somewhat less integral (in this army the marks, if any, decide a bonus, not the whole statline). Norsemen tribes only rarely fully dedicate themselves to a single god, treating the Chaos Gods as a proper pantheon for the most part.

    Lord of Chaos
    Sorcerer Lord
    Daemon Prince

    Exalted Champion
    Aspiring Champion
    Chaos Sorcerer
    ?Rumoured New Character?: (a greater variety of characters was talked about in the Chamber of the Everchosen)

    Warriors of Chaos: Points drop, new marks
    Chosen Warriors: Seperate entry, new marks. Points drop? New models?
    Marauders: Points drop.
    Marauder Horsemen: New plastic models, points drop.
    Chaos Cultists: Human stats, Ld6, 2 Handweapons, no armour. May be 'Marked' in a similar manner to Spawn. (eg. different effects)
    Warhounds of Chaos: New, plastic models.

    Chaos Chariot: Points drop, new Marks. New plastic model.
    Knights of Chaos
    Chosen Knights: Now a seperate unit choice. 'Stats to rape a Blood Knight'. May ride Daemonic Steeds.
    Forsaken Warriors: Infantry unit - halfway between Chaos Spawn and Chaos Warrior.
    'Chaos Brutes': As-yet unnamed Ogre unit - may be upgraded to Troll-kin, Ogre-kin or Were-kin. If Dragon Ogres are not in the list, there might also be a Drake-kin option.

    Chaos Spawn: As now, 'Marks' altered.
    Hellcannon: As now, no Daemonic Gifts, possibly only takes one Rare choice.
    Chaos Giant: As now.
    Dragon Ogres: May appear in the list as either a Rare choice or an option for being Drake-kin. Main evidence for this is the 'Lightning God' Special Character (see below).

    Special Characters:
    Archaon and Galrauch return.
    A new Slaaneshi character with the visuals of an angel, who has Stupidity due to occasionally becoming enraptured with his own reflection in a mirror-shield.
    A new Shaggoth character known as 'The Lightning God'.
    Archaon may, in the same manner as Mannfred from the Vampire Counts book, be taken from different eras.

    Other Rumoured Special Character set-up:
    Archaon the Destined - Archaon in the middle of his rise to power
    Archaon the Everchosen - As in the current book, with the new rules for Marks incorporated
    Archaon the Once-Vanquished - Archaon after his defeat in the Storm of Chaos?
    Crom the Conqueror - Undivided Lord that gives bonuses to Marauders
    Arbaal the Undefeated - Juggernaut mounted Khorne Lord with special greatweapon
    Valnir the Reaper - Nurgle Lord with special Flail. VERY hard to kill
    Dechala the Denied - Slaanesh Hero with special dances
    Aekold the Lifebringer - Tzeentch Hero that gives Regeneration
    Just something i found while lurking on another forum, dont sure how serious to take this

  12. #12
    Chapter Master 75hastings69's Avatar
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    the floating islands of the Shimmertarn

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by decker_cky View Post
    Is there a non-special character shaggoth available in the list? That would bring us up to knowing 4 of the 6 added choices you mentioned...
    Shaggoth was not included in those 6 as I had forgotten about it, so make that 7 not 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scactha View Post
    Thanks for that hastings. I loved my big guys Beast list and was hopping something like that would show for the Mortals. Great news!

    Pity the rumour about the werekin seems shot down then. As much I hate the change of the Norse to chaos scum from being mans first line of defense werevolves would“ve been cool
    If you loved your big guys list then there is an option for you in this book!! A character who has "Lord of the monstrous horde" basically enables you to take an army of trolls etc. I shall not give the name of this character on here though (most likely none of you would believe the name anyway! )

    Quote Originally Posted by Glucksbar View Post
    Well, many questions, perhaps someone can *cough*answer*cough* them?

    1. So, we're speaking of about 15 different units?

    Marauder Horse
    Dragon Ogres

    That sums up to 12. Now add chosen warriors on foot and chosen knights.
    Or are chosen a single entry that get optional horses? Never seen that before, but...
    Well, let's say it's two different entries. So, we only get one really new unit? And if, are those the Flayerkin?
    Or are Trolls, Ogres and DO this rumoured generic biggies in the chaos list?

    2. Will Hellcannon take two rare slots?

    3. Will we get a plastic chariot kit? Or sometime in the future a plastic Lord kit like Empire, HE and O&G?

    4. Did anyone see new minis? Or even better sprues? Is GW back to good old legs-torso-arms-heads parting? Or are the torso and arms in one piece which requires a lot of cutting to convert?

    5. Any news about chaos magic?

    6. What about this rumoured challenge-pump up-thingy?

    7. So far I assume

    Core: Warriors, Marauders, Marauder Horsemen, Hounds

    Special: Chariot, Knights, Ogres, Trolls, DO

    Rare: Spawn, Giant, Hellcannon


    Ah, just too many questions that burn under my nails


    1. No, more than 15.
    2. Can't remember.
    3. I would imagine Plastic Chariot will form part of a later wave of releases. Pretty sure no plastic lord box though, there are enough metals coming out to be honest with new champs/lords on foot & mounted as well as sorcerors, and other stuff.
    4. Not seen sprues so I couldn't confirm or deny this.
    5. Cannot share that just yet.
    6. Eye of the Gods table. Can be rolled on during game for successful challenges, and also for another reason The metal chosen that Harry refers to above roll on it prior to start of game.
    7. Kind of, but there is more stuff to go on there.

  13. #13
    Commander Hrogoff the Destructor's Avatar
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    Eye of Terror

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by OldMaster View Post
    Aaah, Chosen Khorne Knights... memories, memories =D
    Now most likely, they will lose their frenzy to be replaced with something more painful... what could the Mark of Khorne be again? Strength, attack, magic resistance, weapon skill? Either way, that should mean either S6 (so S7 with morning stars =D), or WS7 (O_O) or most propably A4... that's just brutal IMO.
    I'm pretty sure Khorne is no longer frenzy as forsaken come standard with it. I'm also guessing nurgle is no longer fear given one of the knights upgrades. If I had to guess I would say Khornes ability for knights is probably hatred.

    But supposedly even ghosts will have reasons to fear chaos knights.
    What a horrible night to have a curse.

  14. #14
    Chapter Master 75hastings69's Avatar
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    Mar 2005
    the floating islands of the Shimmertarn

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    My understanding is the sprue has been re-cut.
    (Same sprue with more stuff added to it).

    No it hasn't - initial rumours were incorrect. The Chaos Warrior sprue remains the same. There will be however a new Great Weapon/Halberd sprue (which I hope will also contain other bits too) which will go on sale 15th November at a price of £6.

    As for the Chaos War Mammmoth inclusion rumour - RUBBISH!

  15. #15
    Commander Hrogoff the Destructor's Avatar
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    Eye of Terror

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by static grass View Post
    I understand there will be a marauder hero in the new book.
    It's a marauder forsaken eque hero.

    Their initiative is not as high as a chaos lords (and I assume WS as well, but I can't say that one for sure), but they get a few more attacks. They have no armor to speak of (from what I got), but are S5 and T5. But don't let that fool you into thinking they are lesser than their armored counterparts. They will be better at dealing damage to enemy squads, while chaos lords will be more suited against heros. And if their movement is as high as the forsakens movement is rumoured to be, then they will be a very tempting choice indeed.
    What a horrible night to have a curse.

  16. #16

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Mounted chaos marauders

  17. #17
    Librarian robtheguru's Avatar
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    Skull Throne a.k.a Wales!

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Had another word with a manager today and he said the following:-

    -Archaon is going to be like Manfred with seperate entries
    -Basic Warriors are going to have the stats of the current Chosen and Chosen are another step up on that
    -Knights are S5 and will not be getting lances
    -Mark of Khorne is still Frenzy
    -Chaos Trolls are meant to be amazing i.e. S5 and for every 2 regeneration saves passed, they gain a bonus off the chaos mutation table

  18. #18
    Commander Hrogoff the Destructor's Avatar
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    Eye of Terror

    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Alright, I still don't know what the marks are. There is a pretty good chance they are all the same apart from Tzeentch. So to make up for me not figuring that out...

    M6, 1+d3 attacks, chaos warrior statline, but comes with slightly less armor. Might not have frenzy like I previously said (either that or the 1 attack is a result of frenzy). Doesn't cost much more than a warrior.

    Chaos knights.
    Str. 4. Magic weapons come base. Magic weapons make them become str. 5, and they can get lances. So str. 6 on the charge, 5 anytime else. Mounts are daemonic, cause fear. Cost a few points more than a grail knight.

    WS6. Not sure about the other stats. Eye of the gods table, roll 2d6. On a 2 they become stupid. On a 7 nothing happens. They rest are +1 stat boosts apart from rolling an 11 or 12. An 11 is cause fear, if they already cause fear they cause terror. On a 12 they get multiple boosts.

    And ignore what I said about the new hero choice.
    What a horrible night to have a curse.

  19. #19
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Hordes of Chaos army book rumours

    And pics of the (generic) Chaos Lord on Juggernaut (the kit also comes with a helmeted head) and the army book cover:
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

    Painting Log - Circle Orboros - Warpwolves FTW!
    Terrain Log - Circle Orboros themed terrain for Hordes

  20. #20
    Join Date
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    Re: New Warriors of Chaos rumours

    Hey guys, was lucky enough to get a peek into the book today for a bit.
    Some stuff you might want to know (IIRC):

    - Marks:
    Khorne = Frenzy
    Nurgle = -1 WS and BS for enemy when attacking or shooting the unit
    Slaanesh = Itp, but ASF also for characters and I think Giants and Ogres.
    Tzeentch = +1 ward save and +1 to cast if you are a wizard.

    - Army rule IS re-roll panic.

    - Gaze of the Gods table - you roll 2D6 in certain situations, which are:
    Character wins a challenge (doesn't include beating unit champs however)
    Character kills a large target
    Trolls regenerate 2 or more wounds

    - Characters can get Chaos Gifts aswell as Magic Items (much like how the
    Vampire Powers work)

    - Shaggoths are rare, there is no character choice.

    - War Alter is IN!!! Sort of like a Chariot mounted Cauldron of Blood if you
    will in that it is a chariot type model but gives benefits similar to the cauldron
    some of which I'll look upon later.

    - Next is me hanging my head in shame and defeat, Hrogarr, I am telling you
    that your source was right about the Knights weapons (not about the steeds)
    and I totally accept that you were right and I was wrong to question you.
    Sorry again brother. So yea, that's Knights at S5 with magical attacks, or
    at S6 with non-magical attacks, lance replaces the magic weapon.

    On top of that, Chosen may roll at the start of the game and the War Alter
    allows one unit per turn roll, as one of its benefits.

    - Horsemen and Giants can now be marked, and Ogres can be marked too.
    Oh, and Ogres have Chaos Armour

    And Harry and Hastings, feel free to correct me if my memory does not serve
    me correctly on these matters.

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