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  1. #1

    5th Edition Blood Angels

    Sorry if this was already discussed (I searched this forum but did not see any previous threads). I'm just getting into WH40k and I'm planning a Blood Angels army list before I go out and start buying models so I can start assembling & painting. It seems that the new edition will have a lot changes that will affect my planned BA army list. This was the 1,000 point list I planned on using for weeknight games at my local GW:

    HQ: Lemartes
    Elites: DC (3 free +2) w/ JP
    Elites: VAS (5) w/ PF, FL & MG
    Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ PF, MG & LC + Rhino

    My plan was to combat squad the tac squads, load the PF & MG into the rhinos, use them as cover for the DC and VAS and fire support with the LCs. Here are the rumors that have me rethinking my list:

    Run - really makes the rhino for tac squads less necessary at 40 pts each, especially now that those tac squads will give a +4 cover save to those assault squads running into position behind them (i.e. meatshield tac squads).

    Wound allocation - makes 5 man combat squads with a vet sgt with PF less viable than 10 man squads with 2 special weapons (FL & MG).

    Troops only scoring units - this is a tough one - I really wanted to use the DC and VAS squads as my decisive units but this change is making me rethink this, especially if the tac squads are meatshields for the elites.

    Based on these changes I thought about switching to this list:

    HQ: Lemartes
    Elites: DC (3 free +5) w/ JP
    Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ FL & MG
    Troops: RAS (10) w/ PF

    I hate to give up the VAS, and I'm worried about the lack of long range AT by dropping the LC combat squads. I've come up with a third list that keeps the VAS but adds heavy support:

    HQ: Lemartes
    Elites: DC (3 free +2) w/ JP
    Elites: VAS (5) w/ PF, FL & MG
    Troops: 2 x Tac Squad (10) w/ FL & MG
    Heavy: Dev Squad (5) w/ 4 ML

    This list seems much more balanced but might not have the troops left at the end to take and hold objectives.

    If anyone is still reading at this point I really appreciate some feedback on these lists. I'm eager to start my army but I don't want to buy the models until I'm sure I've got an army that can win a few games when the 5th edition comes out. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    Run - really makes the rhino for tac squads less necessary at 40 pts each, especially now that those tac squads will give a +4 cover save to those assault squads running into position behind them (i.e. meatshield tac squads).
    The increased survivability and guaranteed speed of transports ensures they are still a viable unit. Plus they can positively fly across the board if you manage to get a bit of road on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    Wound allocation - makes 5 man combat squads with a vet sgt with PF less viable than 10 man squads with 2 special weapons (FL & MG).
    This is a risk all Marines will have to take when using Combat Squads. At least it’s a choice you can make depending at the start of the game depending on your opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    Troops only scoring units - this is a tough one - I really wanted to use the DC and VAS squads as my decisive units but this change is making me rethink this, especially if the tac squads are meatshields for the elites.
    It saddens me that you are wanting to use the proud Sons of Sanguinus as “meatshields” for their doomed brothers. Why not do it the other way around? Especially since the Death Company have Feel No Pain .

    Having Rhinos will also give you the opportunity to redeploy to objectives quickly, and Combat Squads gives you more scoring units if needed.

    I really don’t think the list you posted would have any real trouble under 5th. Rather than thinking about how to change your list to suit the tactics you’ve thought up, try thinking about how you can use the list you’ve thought up differently. You admitted you wanted to keep the Veteran Assault Squad, so why compromise what you want just because it isn’t easy? Make it work, and it will feel all the sweeter .
    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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  3. #3

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Overcharged vehicles providing cover to advancing assault squads/DC is one of the best core themes you can use in a modern BA list. I don't see running Tacsquads having nearly the same utility.

    Infact with the new transport rules the synergy becomes even better.

  4. #4

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    thanks for the replies - i agree it is sad to think of tac squads as meatshields, seems like such an ork concept.

    As far as PF on vet sgt, is that still a good idea for combat squad tacs? I've read that 5th ed reduces the number of attacks for a PF + ccw by 1 and with would allocation that is an expensive model to lose early in a 1,000 point game.

  5. #5
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Don't forget, in the 3rd mission, victory is determined by Kill Points. Your first list is 11 KP, your second is 8KP and your last has 11KP. You need to make sure your high KP units can do the job without being taken out.

    Lemartes + DC will be fine. They can take a good deal of punishment. I am not sure the VAS can make its KP back at 5 men. If you really want to keep it, I would consider boosting the numbers a bit to give it more survivability.

    I honestly like your second list the best. It has good speed with the tac squads pulling up the rear to get objectives. If you need to, you can have 6 objective taking units on the board in the first turn. Thats a lot of marines to have to kill to prevent objective taking.

  6. #6
    Librarian Warsmith Strader's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Why take transports at all? cause you will probably face some a**tards that will pull the RAW stuff out on your transports...
    I can't believe GW forgot that on this army list.... stupid proofreaders! Someone ask GW why this happened this way? on purpose or accident?

    RAS squads are the way to go!

  7. #7

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by Warsmith Strader View Post
    Why take transports at all? cause you will probably face some a**tards that will pull the RAW stuff out on your transports...
    I can't believe GW forgot that on this army list.... stupid proofreaders! Someone ask GW why this happened this way? on purpose or accident?
    What is the RAW stuff?

  8. #8
    Librarian Warsmith Strader's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    What is the RAW stuff?

    Rules as written. The entries for all transports(except LR's) don't have the access points and fire points listed in the entry. Myself I prefer Rules as intended, so the would have them... I just won't play people that are RAW mongers.

    But that's just me!

  9. #9

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    a**tards indeed. like i said i'm just getting into 40k so i've yet to encounter some of the more annoying players out there but i'm sure it is just a matter of time.

    based on the feedback i've reworked my 1,000 point "5th ed" BA army list to look like this:

    HQ: Lemartes
    Elite: DC (3 free + 2) w/ JP
    Troops: RAS w/ 5 add + PF
    Troops: Tac Squad w/ 5 add FL, LC + Rhino
    Troops: Tac Squad w/ 5 add MG, LC + Rhino

    The Dude I like what you were saying but when I looked at the big picture the 5 man VAS squad was too much of a liability. I'm sticking to the original plan (w/ the additional of a 10 man scoring RAS that can go after objectives). Depending on the map the LC combat squads could even use the run rule to go for an objective(s) late in the game.

    I'm pretty sure this army list has the speed and versatility to swarm a gun line army like IG or Tau (maybe swap the LCs for MLs), counter assault a SM or CSM army and has the AT to take on an Eldar Mech army. My only concern with this list is that it lacks the anti-infantry firepower for CC swarms like Orks and Nids. I'm thinking against those armies of losing the Rhinos and adding a Furioso Dreadnought and playing defensively. Is there any type of army that this list would struggle against under the 5th ed rules? For the record I'm trying to build a balanced army before I start assembling/painting not trying to power game or play RAW and take the fun out of the game

  10. #10
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    The Dude I like what you were saying but when I looked at the big picture the 5 man VAS squad was too much of a liability. I'm sticking to the original plan (w/ the additional of a 10 man scoring RAS that can go after objectives). Depending on the map the LC combat squads could even use the run rule to go for an objective(s) late in the game.
    I suppose the difference is minimal, if you’re prepared to lose the special weapons. The only thing that irks me is that those Assault Marines will be Troops, something I hated from the minute I read the rumour.

    I’m certainly hoping they go back to being FA in the “proper” Codex with the possible exception of if you take Dante.

    If this happens you may find your tactics in need of a re-work, but I suppose by that time you will probably have a bit more than 1000pts worth
    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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  11. #11

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    My only concern with this list is that it lacks the anti-infantry firepower for CC swarms like Orks and Nids. I'm thinking against those armies of losing the Rhinos and adding a Furioso Dreadnought and playing defensively. Is there any type of army that this list would struggle against under the 5th ed rules?
    I just went back and checked the points and the 2 rhinos for a dreadnought obviously wouldnt work even unless I dropped a DC marine (which I really wouldn't do). So what I'm thinking is that when I assemble my 2 tac squads I'll assemble the HW marines with MLs for use against gun line armies, then I'll buy the devestator box for the 2 LCs marines (just paint the helmets red instead of BA dev squad blue). If I'm facing an army that likes to use mechs/armor I can swap one or two MLs for a LC. That leaves 2 more HW models which I want to assemble for anti-infantry (ork or nid), what would be better, HBs or PCs? Let me reiterate - I'm not trying to power game just build a flexible 1,000 point BA army under the new rules.

    Oh and The Dude, once I'm ready to start playing tourneys and increase the size of this army you know the first thing I'm adding - MORE COWBELL! Then a VAS tricked out with all kinds of wargear, then more DC of course. Well maybe more DC first

  12. #12
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Yes, curse my lack of knowledge of Americal Televison.

    We get so much of the stuff here, but it seems the stuff that may actually be worth a look gets ignored
    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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  13. #13
    Chapter Master Occulto's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Yes, curse my lack of knowledge of Americal Televison.

    We get so much of the stuff here, but it seems the stuff that may actually be worth a look gets ignored
    Google knows all:

    http://webfeedcentral.com/2005/01/21...cowbell-video/
    Occulto's advice for new codices. Your army will change. What works now will not work later. You will have to buy new models. Most of all, you are not unique in this regard. This is why most veterans have big armies - they've simply been through several codex releases. If these things annoy you, quit playing now. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache and money over the next few years. You'll probably spare yourself a heart attack too.

  14. #14
    Veteran Sergeant Matt_stanley75's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    The Dude

    Assault squads as troops was the greatest boon given to we BA players. Don't knock it.

  15. #15
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_stanley75 View Post
    The Dude

    Assault squads as troops was the greatest boon given to we BA players. Don't knock it.
    It was a boon that wasn’t needed and detracts from the background of the Blood Angels being a Codex-adherent chapter with the small divergences of the Death Company (out of necessity) and Veteran Assault Squads (out of preference).

    The Blood Angels predilection for Jump Packs is sufficiently represented by the Veteran Assault Squad and Honour Guard. This already gives them the ability to field more Jump Pack troops than any other Chapter. They didn’t need Assault Squads moved to Troops.

    As I said, I’m more than happy for it to be linked to a Special Character (Dante) like is the case with the Dark Angels and their Raven/Deathwings.

    And don’t get me started on forced Death Company
    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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  16. #16

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    i'm thinking GW must have had the 5th ed started already when they released the BA Codex last year. It just made no sense to take a RAS over a VAS - 10 more points and you get 2 attacks per model and much better wargear options. But now with the scoring rules changes the VAS isn't such a no brainer (which was one of the points in my original post). I don't think GW will revise the BA Codex because it (and the DA Codex) were obviously written with the new rules in mind.

    I think the BAs are one of the more versatile armies out there because they are so good at CC, they can play defensively and counter assault, use their mobility to flank oppenents in heavy cover or just go all out assault against exposed gunlines. I can't wait to get my BA army out on the tabletop!

  17. #17
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC97 View Post
    I think the BAs are one of the more versatile armies out there because they are so good at CC, they can play defensively and counter assault, use their mobility to flank oppenents in heavy cover or just go all out assault against exposed gunlines. I can't wait to get my BA army out on the tabletop!
    This is precisely why I think it’s still a bad idea to have Assault Marines as Troops. Assault squads should be for clearing objectives, but the duty of holding them should continue to fall to Tactical Squads. If you let Assaulters hold objectives they will be able to make massed last turn assaults to clear and hold objectives.

    All lists need a flaw, and basic Marine lists should be forced to use Tactical Marines to capture objectives.

    This is, of course, my personal opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerian View Post
    There is no Gets Hot for Plasma Cannon anymore, as there is no roll to hit with them (auto scatter for all blast weapons).
    I suspect Gets Hot! will still come into play somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerian View Post
    Also, in one of your lists you considered giving your Tactical squads two special weapons (Flamers and Meltaguns) which isn't allowed in the BA codex.
    I assumed he meant one with a Flamer, one with a Melta. Could be wrong though.
    Last edited by The Dude; 19-03-2008 at 04:35.
    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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  18. #18
    Commander Wrath's Avatar
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    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I suspect Gets Hot! will still come into play somehow.
    double 1 on the scatter maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Master Raziel View Post
    I have to congratulate you. That's actually the worst idea I've ever seen suggested on Warseer, and I have to tell you, it's up against some doozies!
    "You cannot tell whether a person is good or bad by his vicissitudes in life. Good and bad foutune are matters of fate. Good and bad actions are Man's Way. Retribution of good and evil is taught simply as a moral leasson."
    Hagakure

  19. #19

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    That last list could be a great BA 5th ed list IMO.

  20. #20

    Re: 5th Edition Blood Angels

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    It was a boon that wasn’t needed and detracts from the background of the Blood Angels being a Codex-adherent chapter with the small divergences of the Death Company (out of necessity) and Veteran Assault Squads (out of preference).

    The Blood Angels predilection for Jump Packs is sufficiently represented by the Veteran Assault Squad and Honour Guard. This already gives them the ability to field more Jump Pack troops than any other Chapter. They didn’t need Assault Squads moved to Troops.
    While I found the idea of Assault squads as troops pretty cool at first, I've seen so much "Jump pack full fools" going around that, should the option to thank someone be still active, you would have get a real big "thank" from me !

    Just one quick note : Remember your troop will be your ONLY scoring squads. Throwing them in CC might kill them fast as, in my Dark Angel experience, CC squads tend to lose number really fast, and do so as soon as they hit Close Combat.
    Last edited by Mugatu; 19-03-2008 at 15:29.

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