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Thread: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

  1. #1
    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Ok, some might consider me wierd, others brilliant, and a very select few (also known as the majority), just stark barking mad, but, as things have turned out, I am fiddling on a second gaming system.

    This time, it is not about armies, nor about massive fleets, instead, it is about the little encounters. Around 10 to 12 models per side, and I have got some good inspiration for not one, not two, but three factions inside of the game as well.

    We have:

    Crusaders - based on the popular-culture perception of Knight Templars as really really badass people, shining armour, white robes, magical powers, the whole deal. However, at the basis, we would have the nitty gritty medieval warriors, padded cloth armour, helmets, occasional chainmail coifs. Crossbows, towershields, metal sallets etc. The summoned would then consist of Knights Templars, some with acolytes, and various forms of Angels (angel, arch angel, seraphim?).

    Daemons (need a better name) - Again, we would have the medieval warriors at the basis, no platemail or anything here either, nitty gritty padded cloth etc. For the summons, we would have Fallen Templars, one model with unique effects for each Cardinal Sin, some with lesser daemons, some without. And we would have the big badass daemons, somewhere allong the lines of: Hell Hound, Lord of Circles and The Dragon?

    And finally, the one I am not sure of
    The Dark Fae - I allready have some plans for these models as this is what my Chaos army will be reworked into, but I honestly think this is where they would shine the most. Basic troops would, again be the basic warriors associated with the medieval ages, but with thorns instead of crosses or black clothing to distinguish them. For the summons, I would have some sort of fae creatures and some form of big forest creatures for the larger ones, I haven't decided where my individual concepts goes yet.

    The game will have a summoning system based on the blood of your own men being spillt and the blood of your enemies being spillt, fae might have slightly different summoning system but I am not decided on this. Essentially, each faction should need to think twice before entering into full scale massacre of the enemy BUT killing enemy models also gives the chance to activate a summon of your own. Need to consider whether to make it "if you/your enemy has lost X Blood, you can blabla" or "if you/your enemy has X more than the other you can blabla"

    Now, movement will be inch based if I use a D6 system and Cm based if I use a D10 system, mostly because of the charge mechanic I've thought of, basically, you can only enter combat by declairing a ¤fancy name of charge¤-action, at which point, you move Movement+D6/D10

    When losing a combat, you get knocked back and on the roll of a 50/50+, you can't leap/charge with that model during the next turn, this to allow even small models to continously beat off more powerful ones with a bit of luck and also give the idea of someone continously pushing his own assault forward.

    I have not decided fully on the combat system

    I do know that I will want something like

    Defense: Score needed to inflict damage
    Attack: Score modifying the "inflict damage roll"

    and then a table you check if you manage to inflict damage
    Something like

    Major part (eg. 1-3): knock back
    small part (eg. 4-5): knock down
    smallest part (eg. 6): inflict wound-equivalent.


    Movement would be during one phase, choosing movement would be done by each player placing a face down marker/card near each model or each card for the models, then each player, in turns, reveals their first move, does something with the model, then second etc. This should be able to prevent some models from activating by engaging them in combat.

    Models will also come with Corpse-versions, at least the humble peasants that are to be killed to further the goals and machinations of greater powers. Humble cannonfodder that are useful even when dead. For when dead, the corpses will stay on the table to provide bonuses etc.

    Some might be able to eat them, devour them etc. to regenerate or temporarily boost their strength. Others will feed on them to permanently buff strength or defense. Others still will be able to resurrect them, or transform them, or use them as components for abillities etc.

    Copyright Henrik Granlid, Steamflight Games

    Figured I should add it in there I am really rabbid about this kind of stuff ^^

    Now, onto the questions, all the feedback ever possible would be MUCHLY appreciated, rules will likely be written over the coming weekend, but what do you people think of these ideas?

    And more importantly, what do YOU want to see in a skirmish game of 8-12 models (at most, and they shouldn't be on the table all at the same time).

    Do you want a D6 or a D10 system, perhaps a mixed one? Some sort of objectives? Etc. etc.
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  2. #2
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Hmm...sounds interesting.

    A d6 system would be simpler, a d10 system more robust. However, "More robust" is not always a good thing - even PP's bizarre 2d6 system seems ultimately unnecessary most of the time.

    A tiny bit of a faction thought - what if you took the Daemons and gave them "beautiful" names to describe something horrific? "Devoted of Avarice", "Beloved of Arrogance" - those aren't great (my mind only works at half-capacity before lunch) but it might be kind of interesting. For ideas for the big summons, I'd take a look at the Lesser Key of Solomon for some infamous and powerful daemons - things like Asmodeus and Astaroth come to mind (though those names get used so often in other works that it may put you off them).

    I need to look more closely at AtSS too, but that's something I'll save for when I'm not at work

    I'll be watching this with interest.
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

    Things I'd love to do if I had limitless money: a new Salamanders army for 40K; a new Dark Elf army for Fantasy; an Emperor's Children force for HH *sigh*

  3. #3

    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    what if you took the Daemons and gave them "beautiful" names to describe something horrific? "Devoted of Avarice", "Beloved of Arrogance"
    "Betrothed of Murder", "Suitor of Grief". These are fun!

    One thing I have noticed from various fantasy games is that factions often fall into one a handful of broad categories.

    Shooty- Like the long range game and have various means of slipping out of danger.

    Beatface- All about the combat, many times sacrifice something for huge offensive potential (normally speed or defence)

    Tricksy- Normally have ways of getting around the board that are unavailable to others, tend to be ineffective fighters, but compensate through magic.

    Punching Bag- Average fighters that can withstand huge amounts on punishment and win through sheer attrition.

    Horde- Many cheap worthless drones purely dedicated to making a handful of elites jobs easier.

    The Dark Fae sound like they are based around medieval folklore and pagan deities so one thing I would suggest is that you make them the "Tricksy" faction to show how their believers exist in the wilds or on the fringe of society. Instead of relying on having a good core of warriors like the Knights have a small number of witches and healers who summon through blood rituals and magic words into forests. Compensate for weak mortals by giving them the easiest summonings and ways of keeping themselves alive.

    If I remember from my brief affair with demonology Hell is a highly militarised state with various demons being listed as commanders or warlords of whatever level. One thing to try with them is to establish their mortal followers as a "Beatface-Horde" who first need to spill enough blood for the commanding Demon to arise, who then spills more blood to release more and more of his minions, because Hell doesn't care about people, it just wants a way to breach the defences of the mortal plane.

    The Crusaders sound like a plausible "Punching Bag" with their deaths and ascendancy to heaven being the main drive of their Summons, carry this on with the weaker summons providing protection for surviving mortal, whilst major summons really bring the fight (I believe it's Michael who is Gods champion right?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...elic_hierarchy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Devils

    Those should help a little.

    I'm usually a supporter of D6, dedicating a system to dice like D10's or D20's just mean you are making it harder for the casual observer to get into the game. Most people have a handful of D6 lurking around in old board games or the like, but only dedicated gamers (mostly Role Players) have other types; and if you are already appealing to an expereienced audience expectations over the depth of the games mechanics are going to increase (one criticism I heard of the LotR SBG system is that it is mostly a matter of rolling sixes)

    If I'm reading your Attack/Defence idea right, would this be an accurate example?
    Defender has Defence 5, Attacker has Attack 3, Attacker wounds on a 2+

    Have you considered "The Fallen" as an alertnative name for the Demons?

    Spartan Games recently revealed their skirmish game is to be played using 40mm figures, this made a 6'x4' board look fully used even with only around 20 models. Worth considering?

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    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Actually I have considered different names

    currently, the names are as follows.


    The Fallen - Daemon team, summons Cardinals, which are parodied templars fallen to the cardinal sins, can also summon The Hound, The Fiend and The Dragon, three bigass, badass daemons.

    The Blessed - Dark Christianity Team, summons Templars and can also summon the Angel, the Archangel and the Seraphim

    and I have finally labeled the stats as well

    We've got Defense and we've got Harm

    models will likely have a no of dice thrown to wound as well (attack equivalent)

    The Fallen will generally have higher Harm than the Blessed who will be better in the Defense on their basic troops, there should also be tree basic troops in each team;

    The Tank
    The Damage Dealer
    The Fanatic

    only the fanatic doesn't do what he says on the tin, he will be the one bought with more blood than others but will have relatively low defense, basically, he is the one to run in and die to give blood both to you and your opponent. you can build an army of them, but then there will basically be lots of corpses and few fighters left when the summons start hitting the table.

    The Dark Fae will indeed likely be tricksy and I do like the thought of having easier summons, the units will likely be rather in between though, nothing sneaky or tricksy about them.

    The real customisation lies in the summons and this is also where people will want to build their armies, for instance.

    When you summon one of the three Daemons, the daemon will have an armywide effect, either buffing or debuffing, and it will have a high Harm, but with desceptively low Defense. The daemon will then devour corpses to boost his own defense, whereas the Angels will basically work the other way around, high defense and boosting harm. Templars and Cardinals will devour corpses to have more boosting and temporary effects and I've also worked out what I deem as two nice opposites, at least for necromancy.

    We have Lust which takes the souls from corpses and brings them in as daemons on his side.

    And we have The Father, who, by sacrificing Blood, can remove one corpse from anywhere on the table.

    And I will probably be working in SOME other opposites, but not everything should have a diometrical opposite, note that the Father is useful for a strong team that doesn't really need their own buffs but want to keep enemy bufs at a minimum etc.

    my wrists are hurting, more on this later
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  5. #5

    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Ohh, seems cool. I don't know why, but when I hear Crusaders all shinies I always associate it to Ky Kyske.
    I also think a 1D6 system would be easier to play. Also, why don't each summon have a different way to be summoned (they're all different creatures after all) ? For example to summon a X daemon you need to kill a enemy in front of a certain place, etc ... and harder are the summoning conditions more the summon is powerful.

    P.D. From where are you taking inspiration for the look of the bands, and how many of them are you intending to do?

  6. #6
    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    different conditions for each summon would make the game very complicated, slow running and you would also need to dictate several different terrain pieces to be used.

    instead, having different Blood values for the different summons is enough methinks, basically, the Hound requires, say, 10 Blood of the Blessed, the Fiend 13 and the Dragon 16, whereas the Angel, Archangel and the Seraphim would require similar ammounts of said blood. You will however, have to assign a summon at the start of the game I think, something like:

    You select two Cardinals/Templars and one Angel/Daemon to be your designated summons for that specific list, this way, people might end up having to kill more troops/lose more troops when the more powerful meanie of the other team is on the table etc. Or they might want to hold back on situational killings when they have summoned their badguy because if they start plucking off stragglers, they might leave a concentrated force with the enemy baddy appearing.

    The inspiration will likely be primarily my own ideas on what they should look like, no specific artwork or anything. Mostly medieval and modern depictions of templars and then I simply delve deeper into what the different Cardinal sins can represent. For instance, the Cardinal Lust will not be all kinky and perverted, but rather a templar, clad in normal armour, his sword in hand, hanging limply by his side as he gazes as a torn out heart he holds in his armoured hand. The Templar "the Father" however, will be in normal templar armour, but with a hood as well, a sealed book by his side etc. His sword might be set into the chest of a corpse with a cross carved into its forehead next to him rather than on him. These are the two models likely to end up with a body coming with them to put on their bases.

    The current sculpting plans, once I get started, are as follows:

    7 cardinals

    Lust - probably some smaller daemons to go with him in a box and available separately if I do decide to make them, he'll have a sort of raising/pet-creating abillity

    Greed

    Sloth - Deffinately summons with daemons that does his fighting for him, possibly one high Harm and one high Defense.

    Wrath

    Envy

    Pride

    Gluttony - will come with ghoul-esque daemons and will have similar traits, him and his daemons will be toughened by consuming corpses.

    Note that I've got ideas for the others as well, but I wont say more than that they will either be buffers, debuffers or damage dealers (specialised areas, not solely restricted to them).

    Three daemons

    The Hound

    The Fiend (wip name)

    the Dragon


    Seven Templars

    Faith

    Contempt

    The Surgeon

    The Father - corpse removal, basically counter-summoning/buffer

    The Preacher - comes with zealots, carrying crosses and similar

    The Judge

    The Executioner


    Three Angels

    Angel

    Archangel

    Seraphim - contemplating on whether or not to do the wings as separate bases rather than attatched to the model.


    These would be the primary sculpts that I can think of, the Dark Fae have a few interesting themes, but I am not sure I would use them as a starting force as it would mean yet another ten or so unique models, and possibly variants on the basic soldiers.

    If I DO decide to sculpt the foot-soldiers (unsure, way too many great companies out there not to take advantage of them and give them as suggestions on what to use, I mean, I myself will likely use a box of Men at Arms to convert up early models for testing, sixteen models with the exact looks... really), there will likely be three to four variants for each team, one tank, one damage, one in between, possibly a shooter, but unsure.

    I am currently deciding between two different forms of activision/turn-sequence.

    1. Have movement and combat/shooting phase, first move, then combat or shooting (depending on if the model can shoot or if it is engaged in combat).

    2. when a model is activated, it can either: Shoot, Fight or Move, depending on whether or not it is in combat, a model activated will strike before his opponent, if he fails, his opponent will get to strike back. This would make people think twice about assaulting un-activated models as they could be activated before more help could be brought to bear and could then have a shot at beating back your own model. I like this system more each time I think about it.
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  7. #7
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Out of curiousity, why go with the Seven Deadly Sins and not counter them with the Seven Heavenly Virtues if you're set on doing 7 v. 7 for the force choices?
    Chastity/Purity -> Lust
    Temperance -> Gluttony
    Charity -> Greed
    Diligence/Persistence -> Sloth
    Patience/Peace -> Wrath
    Kindness -> Envy
    Humility/Bravery/Modesty -> Pride

    I just see the seven-on-seven and that's what comes to mind - don't know about other people *shrugs*.
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

    Things I'd love to do if I had limitless money: a new Salamanders army for 40K; a new Dark Elf army for Fantasy; an Emperor's Children force for HH *sigh*

  8. #8
    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    I did think of it, the problem is that I don't want exact mirrors in the Cardinals vs Templars, instead, some will have aspects of one another, some will be opposites and some will also be attempted for uniqueness.

    Renamed "Faith" into "The Icon" btw
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  9. #9
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Ah, fair enough - I'm sure that will be more apparent once all the rules and such are listed

    Since all the other ones are "The" names now (It's like playing Snake Eater! ), do you plan on changing "Contempt"?
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

    Things I'd love to do if I had limitless money: a new Salamanders army for 40K; a new Dark Elf army for Fantasy; an Emperor's Children force for HH *sigh*

  10. #10
    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    Ah yes, I believe I allready have, rather unimaginative, but he will ba named "The Templar", since I don't really have that name, he will also be the most "tank" esque of all, also buffing Defense of people around him etc. Will likely name the rule/abillity "Contempt" though
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  11. #11
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    You could always go with something like "The Master" or "The Marshall" or "The Seneschal" or "The Warden" etc. etc.

    If the group is collectively "The Templar" it might get a bit confusing if there's also a unit called "The Templar".
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

    Things I'd love to do if I had limitless money: a new Salamanders army for 40K; a new Dark Elf army for Fantasy; an Emperor's Children force for HH *sigh*

  12. #12
    Chapter Master Neknoh's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    yer, my thought exactly, The Warden sounds very good, thank you for that, I'll nick it if you don't mind
    Fleets of steampunk airships need playtesting; Above the Seven Seas andSteamflight Games - the, now official, website of Above the Seven Seas
    Cross of Roses ANOTHER system? You ask... yes, I am that mad, thisone will be skirmish-sized

    The Dark Fae, my Warriors of Chaos army with a different theme than normal. Updated 28/2 09

  13. #13
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: What do you want from a fantasy skirmish game ala Warmachine/Hordes, or Mordheim?

    ha, go right ahead
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

    Things I'd love to do if I had limitless money: a new Salamanders army for 40K; a new Dark Elf army for Fantasy; an Emperor's Children force for HH *sigh*

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