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Thread: Salamanders vs. Terradons

  1. #1
    Chaplain jax40kplyr1's Avatar
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    Salamanders vs. Terradons

    After having my terradons shot out from under me for the past several games and drop rocks being marginally effective, I'm seriously debating about dropping (2) units of 3 and adding in 2 units of (1) of salamanders with 1 extra handler each.
    Obviously familiar with salamanders from last edition, I'm totally unfamiliar with them this edition. I know I'm losing march blockers if I drop them, but what are the pros and cons of either choice?

  2. #2

    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Terradon pros:
    Drop rocks on single characterīs heads. Thatīs incredibly powerful and forces the enemy to avoid them at all cost. Also they can threaten skirmishers in woods with this. This ability is their single greatest asset; even if you donīt use it, the psychological effect will be immense. Also you mentioned the marchblock. And if they get shot, well, thatīs your opponent wasting a round of fire on a weak and cheap unit while far better targets are around.

    Terradon cons:
    At everything else, they pretty much suck. Theyīre weak and canīt fight. If you want something that can fight, this is not for you.

    Salamander pros:
    Auto-panicking shots, quite resilient, 5+ Save against shooting (aka meat shield), cause fear.

    Salamander cons:
    Well, under the new rules, they just donīt hit anything anymore. Previously, you could shoot at a unit and get a good 16 or so hits, but the new flame template sucks. You canīt aim, you wonīt hit, you will overshoot, and even if you guessed it right, it wonīt be as damaging as before. It depends on the opponents you usually face. Against horde Armys with low Ld and many models lumped together in one spot, it might be great. But everything with T4 and small units you wonīt even hit will just laugh at it. And as always, they like to misfire far too often.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master N810's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Razordons are basicly the old salamanders,
    except they have to roll to hit, also
    they have to stand and shoot but get to roll double the autilary dice for it.

    the new salamanders are basicly wapfire throwers or fire canons...

  4. #4
    Chapter Master Malorian's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    The salamanders would be more reliable if you ask me.

    You could always split it and take one unit of each (that's what I'm doing in my list).
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  5. #5

    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    I you take the Sallies don't add the extra handler. If you lose the Skink crew and the Sally panics/flees it can't rally.

    Have you thought about Razordons? I find that they work very well at guarding flanks and keeping flyers out of my armies backside.

  6. #6
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    I say terradons are pretty good agaisnt all armies, theres bound to be something they can squash with the rocks and then harrass for a while.

    Sallies while the lesser of the two (one costs the same as 2 1/2 terradons, ouch), can still be effective with the panic and armour negating abilities.

    Razerdons I absolutly percive as rubbish now. I took them to a tourney and they refused to do anything, they couldnt hit, and they couldnt kill either (except thier own skinks, which they were more than happy to do). The roll to hit was a gigantic nerf bat to the shins. I managed to lob 24 shots at some dryads, killed one. Thanks to needing 5s followed by 4s then my opponent having his ward save they just couldnt do anything effectivly.
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    Chapter Master Bac5665's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    terradons sound good in theory, but the drop rocks just doesn't do much against serious players. No one leaves lone characters out in 90% of games I've seen.

    The use Terradons do have is as bait. They are fantastic at march blocking and fleeing from charges. But that is all they do.

  8. #8
    Chapter Master Spirit's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    How exactly can you be having your terradons shot? They are not large targets, hide them behind terrain/your own units until they are needed. If there is a single forest on the board, make a B-line for it and sit there, out of line of sight, until something worthwhile comes a long.

    I would certainly never leave home without one unit of terradons, they put so much pressure on the enemy. two units, i can understand why they are less effective (or at least, not doubly as effective) but certainly dont lose them all. Just be careful with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bac5665 View Post
    terradons sound good in theory, but the drop rocks just doesn't do much against serious players. No one leaves lone characters out in 90% of games I've seen.

    The use Terradons do have is as bait. They are fantastic at march blocking and fleeing from charges. But that is all they do.
    Ive played numerous games where people would usually leave a character out of a unit, but do not BECUASE i have terradons, this in it's self is a major advantage. Creating a 20" "no fly zone" for any light cavelry, flankers, skirmishers and heroes can be incredibly annoying for your opponent.

    Even when you cant kill something REALLY worthwhile, there is always something that can be hit by ~6 S4 shots. And if they are no longer hiding their mages in a forest, you can get at them by charging them, win win situation.

    Also don't underestimate their feigned flight rule. Fly them 3" away from a foot troop unit and you can guarantee that the unit does nothing for a turn, because itl have 2 options, charge you or move 2". Neither is a good option. then when you rally (which you will because your smart and you put their flee route near your Ld8/9 general) they can act normally and do it again.

    I once had 90 points of terradons hold up a khorne warrior unit + hero for 3 turns, they were not impressed!
    Last edited by Spirit; 08-04-2009 at 21:21.
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  9. #9
    Chapter Master Bac5665's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    I'm with you on the feigned flight and the charge baiting, and I said as much in my post.

    But I have played many games, at tourneys and at my LGS, and just about only Skaven and WE use characters outside of units, ever, and then not always. Obviously, terradons are great against WE and no one needs to be convinced of that. Drop rocks being good against one army is not enough to convince me that its anything more than a gimmick.

    I take terradons; I use them to bait and whatnot. But they don't even drop rocks every game because there just aren't that many opportunities to do so against good generals.

  10. #10
    Chapter Master Spirit's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bac5665 View Post
    I'm with you on the feigned flight and the charge baiting, and I said as much in my post.

    But I have played many games, at tourneys and at my LGS, and just about only Skaven and WE use characters outside of units, ever, and then not always. Obviously, terradons are great against WE and no one needs to be convinced of that. Drop rocks being good against one army is not enough to convince me that its anything more than a gimmick.

    I take terradons; I use them to bait and whatnot. But they don't even drop rocks every game because there just aren't that many opportunities to do so against good generals.
    I would have to disagree. Every army has a small, fragile, flanking unit.

    If its t3-4 and on your flank, terradons are your best way to deal with it. Whether its a flying vampire, some war dancers, marauder horsemen, tzeench flamers, any skaven skirmish unit, a hydra (6 hits is probably gonna kill both handlers), goblin wolf riders. The list is endless, there will always be soemthing that helps them get their points back and pisses off the enemy. I have been yet to play a game where they have not killed something useful.
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  11. #11

    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    I like to include both in just about every list I make. Terradons are fragile but 2 wounds a piece is nice. If the opponent doesn't have warmachines ( or many ) don't just fly them in to get shoot up. Move your line up close to his just beyond charge range then fly the terradons right behind them march blocking his and maybe set up crossfire kills later. I doubt he'll turn to shoot them with your line ready to charge.

    Try to rack up as many shooting penalties as you can.
    use woods for cover, long range, moving out of LOS so they have to move to to get LOS to shoot etc.

  12. #12
    Chapter Master The Anarchist's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    maybe im being naive in that no-one has mentioned the best use for Terradons; war machine hunting. terradons aren't great in combat, but fly them around the flank and then charge a warmachine, you don't need to win the combat but for 90 points tieing up a warmachine or akward unit like a cannon for a few turns.

    all the other points above are equally valed, jsut thought i should add war machine hinting as staple diet of flying units like terradons.
    Plus, who wouldn't be afraid of a 7ft mound of muscle with tusks and a propencity for extreme violence, even if their weapons don't work? An Ork in just it's boxer shorts would make most Imperial Guardsmen wet themselves...

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    Chapter Master Bac5665's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Quote Originally Posted by The Anarchist View Post
    maybe im being naive in that no-one has mentioned the best use for Terradons; war machine hunting. terradons aren't great in combat, but fly them around the flank and then charge a warmachine, you don't need to win the combat but for 90 points tieing up a warmachine or akward unit like a cannon for a few turns.

    all the other points above are equally valed, jsut thought i should add war machine hinting as staple diet of flying units like terradons.
    What warmachines are you charging? Terradons will beat DE crew. That's about it. They have a shot against Empire, but most Empire armies will shoot down the terradons first. But even on the charge, it's gonna be close.

    And dwarves will beat them every time. And even if the terradon's win, they wont break.

    So, I'm not sure that their very good at warmachine hunting.

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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    Salamander cons:
    Well, under the new rules, they just donīt hit anything anymore. Previously, you could shoot at a unit and get a good 16 or so hits, but the new flame template sucks. You canīt aim, you wonīt hit, you will overshoot, and even if you guessed it right, it wonīt be as damaging as before. It depends on the opponents you usually face. Against horde Armys with low Ld and many models lumped together in one spot, it might be great. But everything with T4 and small units you wonīt even hit will just laugh at it. And as always, they like to misfire far too often.
    Have you used the new salamanders?

    I run a group of 2-3. I usually get a couple castings of Portent of Far on them as well. The two flame templates are unerringly accurate. The salamanders move 6", shoot an 8" template up to 10". Thier potential range is astonishing. Get to within 6-8" of an infantry or cavalry block and you're guaranteed 2-3 partials and a full hit on cav units, and an insane amount of hits & partials on infantry. I recommend you field the salamanders on a flank. If you shoot down your opponent's battle line you can't miss. I've used them effectively in every game since the new book came out. On average I'm getting fewer hits, but those hits are resulting in the same number of wounds owing to the negative armour save modifier.

    In addition, the 2 S5 attacks and fear that the salamanders pack is more than enough to deal with fast cav etc that opponents often field on flanks.
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Quote Originally Posted by Staurikosaurus View Post
    Have you used the new salamanders?

    Of course I have. What do you think? That Iīm making this up? I always took them under the old rules, but now, I am really tempted to keep them at home. I used them 3 times in total:

    1. Against my experienced tourney mate. He played Tomb Kings, so there wasnīt any useful target on the table to begin with. I ended up flaming a unit of riders with a Lich priest among them and 10 archers in the vicinity. I didnīt hit a single model. What little casualities I caused, he easily raised back on his turn. Sallies then got charged by a single Tomb Scorpion and were annihilated.


    2. It was 500 pts Warband game against a complete noob, Wood Elves. I took unit of 2 Salamanders who I expected to dominated the game and win it for me. As soon as I was in reach, I started flaming. First Sally: misfire, ate three Skinks. Second Sally: misfire, ate three Skinks. So my 150 pts did nothing. In return they were shot by the Woold Elves. Next turn, one remained and flamed a bit, but couldnīt achieve nothing. He then was shot into submission and fled from the table. That was a huge chunk of my allowance that did nothing for me. When she managed to lethal shot my 185 pts Scarvet on Cold One with her Waywatchers, whose stupidity had halted my assault for one turn, it was over. I got massacred by a complete noob in her second game.


    3. Against the same player a little later on 2000 pts. She conveniently put a unit of WE warriors, the Dryads and a unit of Wardancers with two mages inside in one spot. Now I considered that my great chance to have a little revenge. I thought, with so many targets around, the 3 Salamanders would kill at least SOMETHING! I aimed at the Wardancers and started flaming. 3 flame templates later, the only achievement was a single dead Wardancer and a wound on one of the mages. Sallies got charged by Dryads and utterly destroyed. Handlers could hold because they rolled double 1, but were finished off on the next turn.

    So, what do you say? You really only got two choices.

    A) Iīm utterly incompetent

    B) Salamanders are crap.

    As I said, against infantry blocks, they are great, but for my purposes, well, I think I wont take them again until I face Orcs.

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    Commander Staurikosaurus's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    So, what do you say? You really only got two choices.

    A) Iīm utterly incompetent

    B) Salamanders are crap.
    You used salamanders which fire templates, to shoot at skirmishers and were surprised when you didn't hit anything? In fact, in both situations against the wood elves you'd have been better served by razordons or terradons. Templates vs skirmishers = lose. I'm surprised you chose to take them when in your example you knew you'd be playing against wood elves.

    As for your first opponent, they may have served you well but I hesitate to think that there weren't better targets or a better choice of deployment for your salamanders.

    I've used them against Bretonnia, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Empire, O&G and Vampires, all to good effect. As you can tell by my signature, I've used them more than 3 times AND I used them in every list previous edition.
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  17. #17

    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    I used them BECAUSE I wanted to know how they fare. Itīs a matter of learning by doing. Besides, it was my first game against WE. No, apart from the archers and riders, he only had Tomb Scorpions, a Catapult, a Bone Giant and a great number of chariots, neither of which I intended to flame, so you can tell I got at least some common sense.

  18. #18
    Chapter Master Necromancy Black's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    The new Salamanders are fantastic. They're not as good as the old ones, but they are still must haves for me.

    They require i bit more thinking and planning to use but every game I've used them has seen then do alot of damage.

    I've used Razerdons and found them utterly rubbish. I would never take them as every they do, Salamanders do as well or better, never worse.
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  19. #19
    Chapter Master Spirit's Avatar
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Always take one salamander as a minimum, it might not be usefull against every enemy, but it will start hitting once you judge the ranges right.

    First 3 games i missed over and over with it, now its killing ranked up units in droves.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Salamanders vs. Terradons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    So, what do you say? You really only got two choices.

    A) Iīm utterly incompetent

    B) Salamanders are crap.

    As I said, against infantry blocks, they are great, but for my purposes, well, I think I wont take them again until I face Orcs.
    as said before, sallies would not be as useful against WE's as razordons would have been, and shooting as skirmishers is not helping you any. but on that note you cant blame your bad luck in rolling misfires on them. you have a 1 in 6 chance of it, its not the models fault.

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