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Thread: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

  1. #21
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by melgorth View Post
    Of course Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli would also all have died eventually as well, as Valinor doesn't confer immortality upon its inhabitants and would more likely hasten their deaths if they are anything like men. I also think that I have read somewhere that Frodo was only granted a position on Tol Eressea within sight of the Undying Lands, not within the lands themselves.
    Given that the elven dead exist in Valinor, I don't know that it's too much of a stretch to speculate that non-elves might have immortality conferred upon them by their presence there.

    Anyway, if Gimli was allowed in, then why not Hurin? Why not Tuor? Why not Turin? (well.....maybe not Turin.....). But Hurin and Tuor? Their actions far out-shadowed those of the Fellowship. I'd bring Beren into this, but that went in a totally different direction.
    Hurin did a "bad thing"(tm), and was at least partly responsible for what happened to his family (including his son). He made the mistake of letting his pride dictate his actions and mouthed off to Morgoth while being held captive by the latter. Nearly all of the bad things that happened to Hurin's family after they were driven into exile (including his son, Turin) was the result of a curse that Morgoth applied to Hurin's family specifically to punish Hurin for his pride. Morgoth forced Hurin to watch the results of that, and then finally released him when Turin was dead.

    Tuor's fate is up in the air given that he appears to be the only man who married an elf that didn't become mortal herself. He sailed West, but others here have noted in another thread here he apparently made a stop along the way and then abruptly vanished from the stories. Given the usual pattern to these stories, one would expect some sort of change to the lifespan of either Tuor or Idril. And given that they sailed West, a dispensation to allow Tuor to travel to Valinar seems the most likely outcome. But we don't really know.

  2. #22
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Tuor's case seems to be exceptional, all you have are hints of what might have occurred. One theory is that he may have become or counted as an Elf. Rather speculative, I'm afraid.

  3. #23

    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    The Akkalabeth mentions that Aman is know as the undying land because the immortal dwell there, not because it gives some sort of immortality. I think it's then that it's also mentioned that men would wither faster in Aman as the glory would almost overcome them, burning them out than their alotted time.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Blaze View Post
    The Akkalabeth mentions that Aman is know as the undying land because the immortal dwell there, not because it gives some sort of immortality. I think it's then that it's also mentioned that men would wither faster in Aman as the glory would almost overcome them, burning them out than their alotted time.
    On the other hand, we have two instances of immortals becoming mortal (Luthien and Arwen) and one instance of two individuals who were granted the opportunity to decide whether they would be mortal or immortal (the brothers Elrond and Elros). So it may be possible to tweak the system if the circumstances are right.

  5. #25

    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Maybe. But Elros and Elrond had Elven blood in them, hence their choice.

    It might just be me, but it seems that the third age has a lot less Eru-intervention than the 1st and 2nd did.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    The Gods are distancing themselves from direct involvement, and their lands are probably dimensionally phased out of sync with Middle Earth.

  7. #27
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Elven dead remained because it was decreed the fate of Elves was to be bound to the world. The Gift of Men was death and to go "beyond". The cases of Luthien, Arwen, Elrond, and Elros are exceptions where individuals were granted special dispensation (presumably by Eru) to choose their fate.

    This goes back to the idea of things having an "essential nature." Eru made it so that the essential nature of Elves was to exist forever within the world so long as the world itself existed, and the essential nature of Men to die. Although Men like the Numenoreans could have their lifespan extended, their essential nature was unchanged as they would still ultimately die. In seeking true immortality within the boundaries of Arda, Men would be trying to violate this essential nature of themselves and Tolkien wrote that if hypothetically they achieved indefinite existence within Arda, eventually it would become a burden and torture to them as their soul's essential nature would be to leave the world, while their body would cling to the soul.

    In Tolkien's appendices and further writings, it is revealed that Aragorn, aka Elessar, had the gift of choosing when he would die, and that he eventually chose to do so before he became old, decrepit, and senile. Given Tolkien's Catholic values and unacceptability of suicide within that paradigm and Middle Earth's paradigm by extension, this wasn't so much suicide by Aragorn as voluntarily letting go of life and this offer being accepted by Eru.
    Last edited by Iracundus; 11-05-2009 at 14:59.

  8. #28
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    That was an ability that in the beginning all Numenoreans had, or at least their nobles. Later on, they clung to live to the point where their body decayed and finally gave out.

  9. #29

    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    I wouldn't call it an ability, more of a connection with life.

    Animals know when their time is upon them, and they can pretty much lie down and die when they have to. The Numenorean kings used to do the same, letting life and go and passing on. That Aragorn did the same just brings that old tradition and way of life (well, way of death) back.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Blaze View Post
    Maybe. But Elros and Elrond had Elven blood in them, hence their choice.

    It might just be me, but it seems that the third age has a lot less Eru-intervention than the 1st and 2nd did.
    Yes and no. It's true that only one life-span is tweaked (i.e. Arwen's) and lifespans have been the focus of much of this discussion, but Eru also brings Gandalf back from death (iirc it's mentioned in one of Tokien's letters that only Eru could do that) - and that's a pretty significant act.

    The Second Age actually seems to be the one with the least such sort of thing. It opens up with Elrond and Elros, but I can't think of anything else that we can really point to and say, "Eru Illuvatar did that."

    Then again, that could also be because that's the period of time that's the least well-documented.

  11. #31
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    It also has to do with the fear of death, or at least, very human fear of the unknown. The Elves probably know what awaits them, but humans don't. We become very attached to our material life, and it would require an act of faith to let it go voluntarily, while our bodies still are in almost prime condition.

  12. #32

    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Morgoth is also to blame for this. He made the darkness a thing to be feared and whilst Sauron served on Numenor, he intructed the Men of the ways of Morgoth and brought about the fear of death.


    Well, Eru did drown Numenor, reshape the world and pluck Aman away from it. That's a fairly massive intervention.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Blaze View Post
    Well, Eru did drown Numenor, reshape the world and pluck Aman away from it. That's a fairly massive intervention.
    Did he? My recollection was that the Valar did that. But it's been quite a while since I've read the book.

  14. #34
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    My recollection as well; they might have asked for an intervention.

  15. #35

    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    I believe it was Eru. While the Valar do have the power to reshape the land, I get the feeling that making a flat world round and taking Aman away is a bit beyond their powers. If they could do that, then why didn't they try something like that with Morgoth? Take Thangorodrim away and send it into the Void?
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  16. #36
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    Re: Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Blaze View Post
    First of all, I think we need to clarify things. The Grey Havens are the harbours in Middle Earth from where the boats to Valinor leave. Valinor, in Aman is the holy land, the undying land.

    Anyway, if Gimli was allowed in, then why not Hurin? Why not Tuor? Why not Turin? (well.....maybe not Turin.....). But Hurin and Tuor? Their actions far out-shadowed those of the Fellowship. I'd bring Beren into this, but that went in a totally different direction.
    Get out your Ouji Board and ask Tolkein yourself. That's the way he rolls. Hurin, Tuor, Turin did not undo Morgoth. Yeah, the were epic heroes, but in no mythology are the gods fair.

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