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Thread: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

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    Commander tu33y's Avatar
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    IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    so, heavy flamers are 20pts and i wonder why.

    im not moaning i just wonder if there is something i have missed using them? its basically a normal flamer (assault template) but with +1 S and -1 AP. is there another reason why i can get 4 S4 AP5 flamers for the price of one heavy? its only gonna instant death T2 models who are all 1W anyhoo so its not like its S6 or anything.

    my point is it seems expensive for what it does compared to the other special and heavy weapons that seem very cheap indeed. is it more badass than im realising?
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    that ap 4 means it absolutely toasts anything not in power armour. and considering thats usually T4/T3 its S5 means its doing it on a 3+ or better.

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    Librarian Nakor's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    yeah you hit the right thing with that guy and they are dead meat and compared to a normal flamer, the right thing is a much wider field.

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    Commander tu33y's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    hmm fair one. thats what i had thought but i wanted to check- cheers!
    what I like to do is... have a bowl of soup then poach an egg in it. serve it with a pork pie or scotch egg. I call it "egg in soup".

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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    It's nothing but another brainfart from Robin Cruddace. Were Guardsmen able to field one instead of a Heavy Weapon, the high price tag would have been justified. However, considering Command Squads can take up to 4 BS 4 Special Weapons, and that each and every IG tank gets one for free, there's no reason to ever field man-portable Heavy Flamers.

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    Banned Lord Solar Plexus's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by tu33y View Post
    so, heavy flamers are 20pts and i wonder why.
    There is no reason for this I can see, it's plain arbitrary and overcosted.

    Quote Originally Posted by daboarder View Post
    that ap 4 means it absolutely toasts anything not in power armour. and considering thats usually T4/T3 its S5 means its doing it on a 3+ or better.
    So what? Four normal flamers will still kill more, even against T4 and with somewhat diminishing results.

    HF, 10 target models, T4, 4+: 6.67 kills

    4 F, same prerequisites. 10,9,8,7 hits: 8.5 kills

    Of course, you could take 4 heavy flamers in a PCS or add a HF to a Vet squad but still, that doesn't strike me as overly useful.
    Last edited by Lord Solar Plexus; 14-01-2010 at 08:04.

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    Commander GodofWarTx's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Solar Plexus View Post
    There is no reason for this I can see, it's plain arbitrary and overcosted.



    So what? Four normal flamers will still kill more, even against T4 and with somewhat diminishing results.

    HF, 10 target models, T4, 4+: 6.67 kills

    4 F, same prerequisites. 10,9,8,7 hits: 8.5 kills

    Of course, you could take 4 heavy flamers in a PCS or add a HF to a Vet squad but still, that doesn't strike me as overly useful.
    what happens when the squad takes casualties? With the HF you have your firepower intact. With the flamers the firepower is diminished as flamer models are pulled.

    Just a thought.
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    actually godofwar they don't get less anymore. now you cover as many as you can with a single template and multiply it buy the number of flamers in the unit firing, iirc.

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    Chapter Master IJW's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    daboarder, that's only if firing from an open-topped vehicle. Other than that one situation you place each template from the relevant firing model, which is presumably why Lord Solar Plexus made a point of not giving the four Flamers 40 hits.

    In any case, Godofwar was talking about some of the models with Flamers having died...

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    Chapter Master ehlijen's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
    With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
    With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.

    It needed to have a price somewhere near what it does, if not exactly that, just to make sure the regular flamer was a valid option next to it.

    In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.
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    Chapter Master IJW's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    And that there are IG models equipped with them...

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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    i thought all shots were taken at the same time. so you would take each template and count up how many each covered and thats how many you hit. when shooting from a vehicle as non of the models are on the table per say. so you would take the 1 template and multiply by the number shooting.

    you might as well get a black marker and put a line through the heavy flamer as i really don't think they are worth 20pts. i think it must have been put in the codex at the last minute so the writer had no time to test it so jacked the price up without any consideration to the rest of the gear the guard have. either that or hes not read other books and worked out its pretty much the most expensive heavy flamer out there.

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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by IJW View Post
    daboarder, that's only if firing from an open-topped vehicle. Other than that one situation you place each template from the relevant firing model, which is presumably why Lord Solar Plexus made a point of not giving the four Flamers 40 hits.

    In any case, Godofwar was talking about some of the models with Flamers having died...

    Ahh so i see, sorry bout that.

  14. #14

    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehlijen View Post
    AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
    With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
    With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.

    It needed to have a price somewhere near what it does, if not exactly that, just to make sure the regular flamer was a valid option next to it.

    In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.
    And yet Sisters of Battle can get them on their basic troops..

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    Banned Lord Solar Plexus's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by GodofWarTx View Post
    what happens when the squad takes casualties?
    You shoot with one of the backup squads. You do have backup squads, do you?

    A single heavy flamer isn't going to kill whole squads anyways, not in my neck of the woods.. You'll kill a handfull of Orks and die. I did take them from time to time but I wasn't impressed. For 15 points, I'd consider them more often, anything less would be a steal and as ehlijen says, no-one would take regular flamers anymore. 20 points is simply too much for what is probably going to be a one-shot weapon.

    Also, forcing five wounds on a PCS isn't that hard, so you might lose the HF anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by ehlijen View Post
    AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
    With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
    With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.
    But with four times the number of AP5 weapons I will usually kill just as many if not more of those Elites and have backup weapons at the same time.

    And then there's power or aspect armour that the HF cannot penetrate, yet you will have to fire it at such units nevertheless because your friend didn't bring his scouts. Forcing many more hits is a lot better in these cases than +1S.
    Last edited by Lord Solar Plexus; 14-01-2010 at 10:23.

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    Commander Edonil's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Sisters are a unique case- after all, that's one of their four options period. Guardsmen still have more.
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  17. #17

    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by SatireSphere View Post
    And yet Sisters of Battle can get them on their basic troops..
    It's one of their signature weapons.

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    Chapter Master Vaktathi's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Quote Originally Posted by ehlijen View Post
    In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.
    Sisters can carry it, and they don't really even get augmented strength (or at least not much) and they can move, shoot, and assault with it.

    Space Marines don't have it on non-terminators for some indescribable reason, but it's not because they are too unwieldy.
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    Chapter Master Bloodknight's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Space Marines don't have it on non-terminators for some indescribable reason
    They didn't steal it from the Guard yet .
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    Chapter Master IJW's Avatar
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    Re: IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?

    Sternguard can get them.

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