For fear of hijacking the worst rule thread I've moved the discussion over here.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Come on, we're not talking taking the spells out of the game. You can still cast Invocation four times a magic phase. You might just need to throw more than one dice to get it to work. .
I've been here with 6th edition. Quite frankly, you were only allowed to raise if it didn't matter and four castings just never cut it when the fighting started, and at least then you got to raise more when you threw more dice.

Besides without MotBA you will only get on average 8 castings before any magic defence. Not unreasonable considering you have spent the points on maxing out your magic and raising powers.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Yes, vanhels can be pivotal, so yeah, your opponent is going to want to stop it! The same is true for any big spell. For my daemons, Phantasmagoria is typically game-winning for me and my opponents know it. Some games I get it off, some games I don't. That doesn't mean I NEED to get it off to win. Vanhels is the same, typically a critical Vanhels is game-winning.
You can cast those other big winning spells effectivly during the whole game for an instant result.
Vanhels has to be cast at a point where you are in a position to charge with failure resulting in a possible counter charge and doom. If you can't cast the spell in that moment, it can be effectivly worthless for the rest of the game. Then you have to actually win the combat you have charge into to get a result.
Also only a fully tooled out magic lord costing near 500 points is going to have any certainty of getting and casting the spell more than a couple of times, in which case well done!
I really only have an issue with how cheap Vanhels is, just bump up the casting level to 8-9+ and there won't be so much of an issue.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Absolutely agree. Why does this mean that Necromancy spells need be recast? You can use your dice, you just can't feed one dice at a time.
Because then its far too easy for you opponant to take out what is a built in essential part of the army.
A couple of scroll caddies can easily effectively remove any useful casting exactly when you need it probably spelling automatic doom.It shouldn't be so easy for some jackass to effectivly remove the cogs from the engine while its running.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Are you really backtracking to saying that Invocation should be recastable because it doesn't have that much of an effect on the game? You're kidding, right? Hell, Invocation is all the more useful when you are losing combat!
VC troops are designed to lose without substantial character and magic support, much more so than any other army short of tomb kings.
Its not that Invocation doesn't have any effect on the game , its that it allows VC to stay in the game. Undead armies need a sufficient amount of magic just to function properly, and that implys the neccesity for a certain amount of reliability.
Other spells generally give you instant results one way or another. Necromancy spells generally are trading in on a possible future payoff by supporting your troops, Why else would I pay 8 points for a skeleton who fights worse than a 5 point goblin? Because if I spend the additional points on a magic character, then he's worth it, without it he's damned overpriced (mind you, so are goblins but thats another issue entirely). He's also entirely reliant on that character AND his magic.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Getting more potential than any other army resulting in VCs being decidedly overpowered versus virtually all other armies in the game, yeah, it's a problem.
You overpowered compared to Demons, Dark Elves, LM, possibly skaven and maybe even beastmen? Really?!
And thats only if I'm using the most abusive VC build and my opponant isn't using his (in which case Double Stanks Thorek Gunlines WoC Tzeench/Vilitch lists are all comperable).
Magic WoC DoC DE and LM can get an equally good , if not better, return on their power dice. And they can throw single dice at spells as well.
And thats mostly my point, the abusive build tends to rely on MotBA, the recasting is perfectly suilted to the undead army.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Exactly. Which would bring VCs down a peg or two while still allowing them their magic.
Why do VC need taking down a peg or two?
Demons are way better DE are easily comperable if not slightly better.
LM are easily equal, with skaven possibly fitting in there as well.
BoC WoC and HE are not far off, and can compete pretty fairly depending on the army builds (as can most armies)

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
[COLOR="magenta"]Wow, you'd think I was making VCs unplayable. Because that's a risk that virtually every magic user - and magic heavy army - has to endure. It's not game breaking, but it contributes to the general overpowerdness of the VC army.
Its a very real danger, you would like a drastic change to the very functionality of the army, a basis on which it was designed. I can see it basically relegating VC somewhere below TKs, becasue the raising ability would be similar if not less.
I would prefer a milder different approach which would have a less drastic but just as profound effect.
First change the raising bloodlines: It should change the casting value of the spell on such units to 3 not +1
Heres my reasoning. Its not the continual ability to cast on a 3, its the fact if you cast on a 3, its actually a 4, and on a 4 its a 5, and so on.
Every dice result gains what is probably an unfair benefit and frustrates your opponant.
My way means now only a three gains a result without becoming more difficult to cast.
Second:Fix MotBA- Almost every complaint about re-casting has this ability at its heart.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post

Put another way, why should the VCs be able to bypass this risk?
Because every other army doesn't start to automatically die if their General blows up.
Becasue every other army has the ring of Hotek, Infernal puppet or something equally stupid.
Every other army doesn't function through magic.
Thats why.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
[COLOR="magenta"]*Shrug* Personally, I find that fell bats, wolves, flying characters and monsters not to mention rovers like the vargulf can deal with these just fine, just as with any other army. The tools are there, VC players are too used to the crutch that is the magic. And it's not like magic is taken away, just you need to get it right, again as with any other army.
I find that other armys have more effective means of dealing with the above, often cheaper and/or more cost effectivly.
I play a balanced magic build built without MotBA and it competes pretty fairly on the battlefield.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
You're right, VCs are totally balanced and not at all a top-tier army. Hell, they NEED this advantage that noone else in the game gets just to stay competitive with those terribly unfair WoC armies. .
Maybe in the beginning VC might have been considered OP, but time have changed. People have learned to deal with what is effectivly a one dimensional army and adapted. VC are no longrer the new kids on the block.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Listen to yourself. I've won tournaments with my VCs and you can bet I use every bit of them to my advantage, including spamming invocation and vanhels. But lets not convince ourselves that they're not overpowered, eh?
So you took MotBA? The (already metntioned) abusive build?
As far as I can tell VC win fewer tournaments these days than DoC LM and DE. In fact they don't even seem to appear in the top nearly as much.
I can't say that I've been to a tournament, mainly because:
I'm a shcoking painter and would lose pints just for showing up with the abomination that is my army.
My gaming group is as hard as nails and beardy enough anyway-fielding most armies in their astiest incarnations, competition enough for me.

Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
Oh come on! The army would lose power, sure, bringing it more in-line with other armies out there. But the rule is an artefact of a time where undead were slow and pondering and required their magic to both manoeuver and fight and you couldn't have both the fighting power of vampires and magical dominance. Now with the helm of command and the ability to take fighty vampires as your magic users, plus the mobility of etherial cavalry, wolves vargulfs, flying monsters, bats and the fact that you can effectively entirely bypass the marching restriction means that this crutch is no longer necessary.
IMO Vc actuallty lost a great deal of thier fighting power, the best combat build is pretty risky and fails spectaculrly if it doesn't work.