The Balrog

[Grey Hunter 88]

Hello everyone,

I will admit that I'm not much more than a slightly educated initiate when it comes to the Lord of the Rings. I have seen the films (who hasn't) and read up to the end of Two Towers a couple times, and had some friends who were huge Tolkien buffs back in the day, but something has always eluded me.

What exactly is the Balrog? I've heard that it was some sort of General, like an evil daemon that led armies back in an ancient age? Something to that effect? How did it get stuck in Moria?

If it was a general of sorts, and if nothing on Middle Earth (bar Gandalf) can really hope to stand against it, how were those armies even defeated if the Balrog was supposed to be one of many?

I know I could probably get an answer from Wikipedia, but I always prefer getting information about these sort of myths from other people.

[RMacDeezy]

it was one of a group of beings summoned by Melkor. i think its a maia, so on the same power level as saruman and gandalf. i don't remember how many there were but they did fight for melkor as generals. the chief balrog was one of melkor's highest ranking underlings and had a bodyguard of several hundred trolls. sure, the balrog is basically unstoppable in the 3rd age, but millenia ago, the elves and such were MUCH more powerful, able to at least not be pushed over by the balrogs. it is never specifically mentioned how it came to moria but someone (gandalf?) speculates that it hid there when the valar came to middle earth and defeated melkor and his followers

[ForgottenLore]

I recall reading somewhere that Sauron fled a battle in the first age and was hiding from Morgoth for a while. During that time a balrog happened upon him and they fought, because Sauron could not have the balrog go back to Morgoth and report that Sauron was actually stll alive. Sauron was not able to kill the balrog but he did drive it deep under the mountains. Shortly after that the Valar intervened and overthrew Morgoth and his armies. The implication being that that was the balrog of Moria. Don't remember where I got that though.

[Nuada]

As others have said, there were lots of Balrogs in the 1st Age. The Captain of Angband was a Balrog called Gothmog, i remember he lead an army of Balrogs against Gondolin (i love the image of an army of Balrogs)

The War of Wrath is when all the Balrogs are destroyed or flee. On the evil side is Balrogs, Orcs, Men and a truck load of Dragons led by Ancalagon the Black (the biggest Dragon ever to have lived) Good side is a half elf in a flying ship (forgot his name) Elves from the Undying Lands (lots of Vanya) Noldor Evles, Eonwe (he's the best amongst the Maiar at fighting. Sauron hides from him), and an army of eagles. The reason for Balrogs being killed is because the 1st age elves are rock hard. Feanor marches to Angband to get back the Silmarils on his own, and it takes a host of Balrogs surrounding him to bring him down.

No one knows what happened to any of the fleeing Balrgos, apart from one........ the one that fled to Moria. He hid there for thousands of years.

[Chaplain of Chaos]

there original quenya name is Valarauker which means something like power of fire, or daemon of fire.

They were spirits of fire much like the Maia that eventually became the Sun. They were corrupted by Morgoth in the earliest age of Middle-earth.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Everyone has pretty much covered what you'd probably want or need to know about them, but I thought I'd toss out these few tidbits of info all the same:

Gothmog, captain of the Balrogs, killed and was killed by the elf lord Ecthelion during the fall of Gondolin. While leading a group of escapees through a mountain pass, Glorfindel was also attacked by a Balrog. He killed the Balrog, but fell off a cliff-face during the fight and died as well (this is presumeably the same Glorfindel who we meet later - when elves "die" they are simply exiled from the rest of the physical world and they dwell in the halls of Mandos, the Valar of death, a lot like Valhalla in norse mythology).

I'm pretty certain no definitive number of Balrogs is ever given, but I tend to envision them appearing in small numbers rather than armies or the like. In any case, Encyclopedia of Arda (which is an excellent online resource for LotR lore, by the way) speculates that there were no more than 7 of them. I think they mostly just acted as commanders for Melkor's armies. Additionally, even though maia were much more common in Beleriand/Middle-Earth during the first age, they're still almost universally depicted as very, very powerful beings, and not the sort that you would find running around en masse.

In my opinion, GW vastly over-stated their power, though (or maybe PJ did, hard to tell how strong it's intended to be based on that brief scene). Yes, they ought to be tough, but for me not as tough as Sauron (certainly not at the height of his power with the Ring), and if an elf, even a very powerful one, was able to kill a Balrog in one-on-one combat, then it seems that they ought to be toned down a bit. Just my 0.02.

Also, I'd never heard that bit of info that Forgottenlore mentions, but it certainly sounds believable and if anyone else knows where it can be found, I'd love to read it!

[ForgottenLore]

Also, I'd never heard that bit of info that Forgottenlore mentions, but it certainly sounds believable and if anyone else knows where it can be found, I'd love to read it!

Keep in mind that I don't remember where that little piece of memory comes from. It could very well be some obscure bit of fan fiction I came accross on the web sometime. I certainly haven't been able to track it down.

[Nuada]

I'm pretty certain no definitive number of Balrogs is ever given

I'm very dubious about that webpage resource, we've had incorrect info from it before.
There's a few quotes from Middle-Earth books that suggest there's more than seven...
...."There came afresh a hundred thousand Orcs and a thousand Balrogs, and in the forefront came Glomund the Dragon, and Elves and Men withered before him."
........"But at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs" (definition of host is horde)



The reason that webpage quotes seven Balrogs is because of a small marginal note from Christopher (way after LotR, in 1984) He included it attached to his commentary in the Second Book of Lost Tales;

"The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed - 'at most seven'."


Don't know why he wrote that. I find seven Balrogs impossible to comprehend, they don't come back to life after they are slain.
Here's just one example of Balrogs killed ....."Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three"
The men of Rog allied with elves kill lots more. If you add up the number of Balrogs killed it comes to way more than seven.

Keep in mind that I don't remember where that little piece of memory comes from. It could very well be some obscure bit of fan fiction I came accross on the web sometime. I certainly haven't been able to track it down.

It could be from Merp, if you ever played that roleplay game. I've also got loads of info that isn't from LotR

[Wade Wilson]

The men of Rog allied with elves kill lots more. If you add up the number of Balrogs killed it comes to way more than seven.

The Tolkien family...fantastic writters of Fantasy Adventure...not so hot with maths...

[RMacDeezy]

well chris tolkien claims that there was only seven but all of the language in the silmarillion indicates that there were more. as mentioned the number of instances where balrogs are killed adds up to more than seven and tolkien used words like 'host' to describe their number. i doubt such a master of the english language would use the word 'host' to describe seven individuals. that would have been more like a 'fellowship' of balrogs. i always figured them to be kind of an 'elite corps' in melkor's forces, holding high-ranking positions and groups of them forming small units.

[canucklhead]

In answer to the idea that the Balrog was over powered, since the 1st age saw them getting hacked up by elves, there is this important fact to keep in mind. During the 1st age, Elves were not the same. Elves are tied to Arda (middle earth), and reflect it in themselves. So by the time we get to LOTR, they have become weary and filled with sorrow, almost ghostly, as their power in the world wanes and Valinor calls to them. They are shown as wise and fair, but sad and few in number.

Now let's look at 1st age. The world is in it's youth, fresh and filled with power and light and life, and so are the elves. Feanor was the brightest light among them, and his family, (Galadriel included) were a nigh unstoppable group, fairly the equal of Maiar. They did not know despair, filling themselves instead with zeal and vengeance. This was a very powerful tool against the power of Morgoth, who most relied on fear and despair to weaken his foes. Morgoth, and thus all who served him, was basically a coward, happy to sneak and steal and stab his enemies in the back, but completely servile when brought to heel.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Here's just one example of Balrogs killed ....."Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three"
The men of Rog allied with elves kill lots more. If you add up the number of Balrogs killed it comes to way more than seven.

Oh wow, is that all in the Silmarillion? It's been such a long time since I've read it that I had forgotten the descriptors he uses. From those quotes, it certainly does sound like there must have been a fair few more than 7.

If Christopher is correct, and JRR really did indicate in a later note that he intended there to be no more than 7, I wonder what changes he would have made to the Silmarillion to maintain consistency?

EDIT: with regards to Balrogs, I don't really want to drag a bunch of rules and profiles into a background forum topic, but essentially even if the elves of the First Age are meant to be far more powerful than the elves of the Third Age, the idea of one of them taking down one of GW's Balrogs (let alone three, or a captain-level Balrog) is hard to swallow. Different strokes for different folks, though.

[Nuada]

If Christopher is correct, and JRR really did indicate in a later note that he intended there to be no more than 7.

Yeah, Christopher found one of his Dads notes that said there were 3 balrogs, at most 7.

Problem is there's lots of these notes lying around, as you can imagine for an author that's invented so much background. Your original ideas often change. For example the terror in Moria was going to be a Nazgul, and Striders character was originally a hobbit with wooden shoes. JRR is playing around with ideas, he ditches some and decides to go with others.

He seemed to change the power of the Balrog, LotR didn't start out connected to the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion was a seperate world to start with. My guess would be (and this is a guess) that he saw the fire demons as equal to an elf character in the Silmarillion. But then he increased the Balrogs power when he wrote LotR, so it would be a worthy foe to kill Gandalf.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Haha, yes, I love the notion of Arahobbitagorn. Thank goodness it didn't make the "final cut" so to speak. And yeah, the plethora of notes, unfinished manuscripts, and first halves of stories definitely makes the early histories a muddled mess.

I guess when reading LotR I always got the impression that the Balrog wasn't significantly stronger than the ones in the Silmarillion, just that no one in the Fellowship other than Gandalf was anywhere near a match for it. I'd definitely buy that Tolkien hadn't really cemented his ideas on them and their power-level, though.

[Verm1s]

The War of Wrath is when all the Balrogs are destroyed or flee. Good side is a half elf in a flying ship (forgot his name) Elves from the Undying Lands (lots of Vanya) Noldor Evles, Eonwe (he's the best amongst the Maiar at fighting. Sauron hides from him), and an army of eagles. The reason for Balrogs being killed is because the 1st age elves are rock hard.

I'm not saying the elves and Eärendil (the half elf) weren't hard and didn't have their moments, but the former did get systematically whupped in most of the battles of the First Age. I'd say the main reason the War of Wrath turned the tables so hard was because the Valar, the 'gods' of Arda themselves, decided it was time to get personally stuck in and take care of Melkor (Morgoth) once and for all. Being at a pretty much unassailable level of power, it's not too difficult to see how they took care of the balrogs too. Like swatting flies, I'd imagine. Hot, spiky flies.

[Chaplain of Chaos]

I was always given the impression that in general it was the hosts and hosts of Maia and the Valar themselves that carried the fight.

Also the entire armed host of Vanyar who hadn't gone through the long war of attrition that the Noldor had and still existed in the full light of Aman.

[Grey Hunter 88]

Thanks guys, you are brilliant.

Can a Balrog be hurt by mundane means? I got the impression that arrows/swords/catapults etc might pass through him or bounce right off?

If so, how did armies of them get obliterated? Did the Noldor or Elves of Old equip all of their soldiers with enchanted blades?

[ForgottenLore]

I would say that yes, technically, but that it would be like trying to kill an elephant with mosquito stings.

Also, remember that basically everything that elves make we would consider a magic item, and in the first age they were able to make MUCH more powerful weapons than were present during the War of the Ring.

[Svorlrik]

It's also worth bearing in mind that Tolkien writes the elves as far more powerful than we have come to know them.

We're used to elf armies being fairly balanced against other races because of warhammer and the lotr sbg. Even the Two Towers movie makes it seem like elves are comparable to mortals. They're portrayed as skilled soldiers with high quality weapons, but don't really come across as immortal magical warriors.

In the books we only get good descriptions of the elves going to war during the first age in which the greatest amongst them are powerful enough to duel balrogs. I think elves are supposed to be a bit more "superhuman" in the books than just pointy eared old dudes with fancy weapons and armour.

I kind of see it the same way Space marines are portrayed in warhammer 40,000. In the novels, they're rediculously powerful, yet on the tabletop it's perfectly normal for a space marine to be killed by a couple of guard/gaunts/lesser creatures.

--- sorry if i went a little off topic :P

[Arnizipal]

I recall reading somewhere that Sauron fled a battle in the first age and was hiding from Morgoth for a while. During that time a balrog happened upon him and they fought, because Sauron could not have the balrog go back to Morgoth and report that Sauron was actually stll alive. Sauron was not able to kill the balrog but he did drive it deep under the mountains. Shortly after that the Valar intervened and overthrew Morgoth and his armies. The implication being that that was the balrog of Moria. Don't remember where I got that though.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't Sauron present at Angband when the Valar besieged it?
Or maybe I'm just confused by that piece of flavour text at the start of the Nightfall in Middle Earth CD where Melkor releases Sauron from his duties.

I was always given the impression that in general it was the hosts and hosts of Maia and the Valar themselves that carried the fight.

Also the entire armed host of Vanyar who hadn't gone through the long war of attrition that the Noldor had and still existed in the full light of Aman.

I always thought it was strange for an army of pacifistic Elves who had never seen combat and lived on an isolated island-paradise, to be effective warriors in a large battle. But maybe that's just me