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Thread: Raven Guard Company makeup

  1. #21
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMav80 View Post
    Always wondered why the Marines classified as stealthy guerilla style fighters (Raven Guard and Night Lords) get saddled with the idea of using Jump Packs all the time.

    Giant rocket boosters strapped to your back...probably the total opposite of stealth.
    In the case of the Night Lords, because they needed a mirror for the Iron Warriors. They had one Legion that had 4 of one slot, 1 of another, and a 0-1 limitation removed, they needed another to be the opposite.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMav80 View Post
    Always wondered why the Marines classified as stealthy guerilla style fighters (Raven Guard and Night Lords) get saddled with the idea of using Jump Packs all the time.

    Giant rocket boosters strapped to your back...probably the total opposite of stealth.
    Well the Night Lords really arn't guerilla style fighters. Think more of shock and awe. Now the Alpha Legion, I see them as guerilla type infultraitors. Thats how they worked in Legion, and that seemed to be the modius operandi.
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  3. #23
    Chapter Master Inquisitor Engel's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Company makeup for the Raven Guard is probably a light, white foundation and some black eyeliner.

  4. #24
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Engel View Post
    Company makeup for the Raven Guard is probably a light, white foundation and some black eyeliner.
    Inquisitor Engel wins the thread.


    I always saw the Raven Guard as being much more divergent of the Codex than other Chapters. Nowhere to the extent of the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but saw the Codex as a set of guidelines than hard rules. Hence the major reliance on Scouts, the fierce independence of each Raven Guard Company from each other and the way they operated.

    In guerilla warfare, operating predictably wouldn't work now, would it.
    Reason not to hate Mat Ward #62: Mat Ward used the well designed spine of the Grey Knights Codex to 'Ward' off chavs who were harassing a group of nuns]

  5. #25
    Chapter Master Inquisitor Engel's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazguire View Post
    Inquisitor Engel wins the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazguire View Post
    I always saw the Raven Guard as being much more divergent of the Codex than other Chapters. Nowhere to the extent of the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but saw the Codex as a set of guidelines than hard rules. Hence the major reliance on Scouts, the fierce independence of each Raven Guard Company from each other and the way they operated.
    Indeed. The whole "they're still rebuilding 10,000 years later" schtick was unbelievable and silly when they tried it in the 4th Ed Codex, so my mind simply came up with a better solution.

    I imagine that though they're now clearly full-strength, the Raven Guard did take a LONG time to get there, which necessitated the use of guerilla and hit-and-run tactics. Over time, many of the new recruits, being extremely valuable were only allowed on these missions and not pitched-battle, leading to a generation of recruits who find it distasteful to stand and shoot when they could be on their way out...

    Not that they weren't sorta sneaky before, but you know... needs must. The desire for pitched battle must be pretty much bred out (and indeed, some tactical knowledge somewhat lacking if Kastorel-Novem is anything to go by!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazguire View Post
    In guerilla warfare, operating predictably wouldn't work now, would it.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Engel View Post

    Indeed. The whole "they're still rebuilding 10,000 years later" schtick was unbelievable and silly when they tried it in the 4th Ed Codex, so my mind simply came up with a better solution.

    I imagine that though they're now clearly full-strength, the Raven Guard did take a LONG time to get there, which necessitated the use of guerilla and hit-and-run tactics. Over time, many of the new recruits, being extremely valuable were only allowed on these missions and not pitched-battle, leading to a generation of recruits who find it distasteful to stand and shoot when they could be on their way out...

    Not that they weren't sorta sneaky before, but you know... needs must. The desire for pitched battle must be pretty much bred out (and indeed, some tactical knowledge somewhat lacking if Kastorel-Novem is anything to go by!)
    Which is actually quite logical. And as these recruits started to become leaders, it changed the Chapter culture.

    Though this reorganisation would have had to have happened during the Heresy and Scouring, as there were still about 3000 Raven Guard left after the massacres, according to Raven's Flight.

    Which still makes sense, as the Legions fought entirely differently then, so the idea still applies.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    just ordered korvadaye and 2x raven guard upgrade packs

  8. #28

    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    According to the book "Hunt for voldorius" they do indeed use devastators.
    Slight spoilers on battles, beware!

    In a fortress assault they have divided their force in two wings, one consisting of mobile assault marines and one consisting of tactical and devastator squad.
    Tactical and devastator squads holds a taken fortress walls while the assault squad are off taking an important objective. Noted are that the devs are mentioned using missile-launchers and heavy-bolters.
    If also describes an ambush were devastators and tactical squads open fire and assault marines charges in.

    It is my opinion that it has been a lot of misunderstanding with the raven guard. They use tactical and devastator squads to apply maximum firepower on enemy main forces, or hold objectives. But often there is a side objective that is important, like a lascannon team, a predator tank or something else. Here is where the assault marines comes in to quickly kill the threat with speed. Thus the assault marine gets an important role, but remember, Raven guard != Blood angels.

    It just happens that many of the raven guard battles has been where they have little support, also fits with their split companies. I am sure that if needed too combine companies in to an armored spearhead they would use similar tactics with great success. It just happens that gather intelligence and often can prevail without armored support and are often outnumbered. Also raven guard likes to help civilians which means long-term deployment in enemy territory. In actual planetary battle there is no doubt in my mind that they use devastators and mobile mech/armoured forces.

  9. #29
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirex View Post
    Raven guard != Blood angels.
    Even then, people conveniently ignore that the vast bulk of the Blood Angels Chapter is still Tactical Marines. They have a preference for Assault Marines, yes, and most brothers want to be one, but they're still limited to 180 of them. They can't be everywhere at once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialis_Dominatus View Post
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  10. #30
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Tactical Marines can deploy as Assault or Devastators. Just like Vets can deploy as Sternguard or Vanguard (or Long Fangs ) or Tactical Terminators or Assault Terminators etc.

    Even Black Templars have devastators in the fluff. It simply isn't part of the current list which focuses on rough and tumble brawlers in ad hoc formations kicking ***, chewing gum, and taking names in perpetual fisticuffs across inhabited space. Unfortunately they have them (just like World Eaters have Havocs.)
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; 11-03-2011 at 00:58.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorin Hubertson View Post
    This comes to a massive 20 squads - the equivavelent of a full two companies, reinforced by a strong force from the armoury. And all of this was left to be commanded by a single captain? One would think that there was at least one more captain to support the first one.
    Well it's not like he controls two battle-companies but a heavily reinforced battle-company. I would imagine two captains being in a warzone together if their entire companies were deployed such as in the Blood Ravens books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limbic Librarian View Post
    Its said multiple times that raven guard tend to field more scouts for their intelligence gathering abilities, and also like decisive assaults so either rely more heavily upon or field more assault marines. Their homeworld (Deliverance) is a forgeworld so they are well equipped when it comes to equipment and vehicles. The slightly older background said that they were poorly equipped and had to make do with what they had, but I think this was just an excuse to give them all the Corvus-pattern beaky helmet.

    I forget what one it was, but in Cadian Blood
    They weren't poorly equipped the way you make them out to be. It is just that they lost thousands of battle brothers on Istvaan without being able to rescue either their gene-seed or their tanks and armour and all the good stuff. So they had to dig in to their reserves, most of which consisted of the beaked variety power armour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrok View Post
    I know the 6/2/2 split is what they keep saying in the codex, but I always figured that each company commander had some leeway in choosing how to use his squads. If he decidec that he needed two bike and one assault squads, I don't think he would get shut down because "we don't have 3 assault squads." While it would be convienant if he could just call on the reserve company to send an additional squad, I think it's far more likely he would re-equip a tactical/devistator squad to fit the requirements of the battlefield.

    I know this kind of strays away from the raven guard specifically, but having tactical flexibility seems more important then following a rigid combat dogma. I can see how there would be issues from the chapter master if a captain decided that he was going to have 10 assault squad as his battle company all the time.

    And while I'm thinking of it, where do the 20 marines assigned to drive the rhinos come from?
    That definitely is plausible as according to the new codex once a marine graduates from rookie school he progresses on a path and learns the skills for all three roles - devastator, assault and tactical.

    The drivers for the rhinos usually come from the devastator reserves. However that doesnt make sense as it leaves the reserve company severely understrength for other roles when the drivers are spread out over multiple zones with other companies. It could be that the drivers are drawn from a pool of battle-brothers on a permanent assignment to the armoury under the Master of the Forge and are outside the normal organisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrasmurf View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMav80 View Post
    Always wondered why the Marines classified as stealthy guerilla style fighters (Raven Guard and Night Lords) get saddled with the idea of using Jump Packs all the time.

    Giant rocket boosters strapped to your back...probably the total opposite of stealth.
    Hunt for Voldorius suggests that the Raven Guard are able to silence the emissions of their backpacks and jump-packs to allow them to move more stealthily than a regular marine can. The Night Lords could be using similar methods for their raptors when needed.
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  12. #32

    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Slightly reviving an old thread I know, butI was looking this up for my own reference. This is from Lexicanum and I remember reading this elsewhere:

    "Raven Guard Captains are fiercely independent, and it's incredibly rare for the chapter to fight as a whole. Individual companies are completely autonomous and are quick to lend their aid to imperial commanders across the galaxy, with or without the sanction of their Chapter Master. Such behaviour has led to some to question the Raven Guard's soundness, but most recognise that such fluidity of command proves the presence of formidable discipline, not its absence."

    Wouldn't this imply that the Raven Guard are not divided into battle / reserve companies etc, but that each company has it's own reserves, being a microcosm of a chapter as a whole...
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  13. #33
    Chapter Master Lord_Crull's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazguire View Post
    I always saw the Raven Guard as being much more divergent of the Codex than other Chapters. Nowhere to the extent of the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but saw the Codex as a set of guidelines than hard rules. Hence the major reliance on Scouts, the fierce independence of each Raven Guard Company from each other and the way they operated.
    Raven Guard are noted in their Index Astartes article to follow the Codex Astartes closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazguire View Post
    In guerilla warfare, operating predictably wouldn't work now, would it.
    The Codex Astartes operating predictably is not accurate at all. The Codex encompasses essentially all human knowledge on warfare, from hundreds of military minds across history. The Codex contains advice and information with hundreds of pages on every type of situation, including unconventional warfare. The Codex is only as good as the commander who utlizes it.

    If anything chapter such as the White Scars of Raven Guard are more predictable than the Ultramarines, who are not specialised in a certain form of warfare.
    Last edited by Lord_Crull; 07-06-2011 at 19:50.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Crull View Post
    Raven Guard are noted in their Index Astartes article to follow the Codex Astartes closely.
    Well, they do follow it to SOME degree, as their organizational markings and the location of those markings are somewhat different than standard Codex markings and locations are.

    I wouldn't say they are highly divergent, but they most certainly not straight toe the line Codex either.
    "From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.

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  15. #35
    Chapter Master Lord_Crull's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphariusOmegon20 View Post
    Well, they do follow it to SOME degree, as their organizational markings and the location of those markings are somewhat different than standard Codex markings and locations are.
    That means nothing as Insignium Astartes states that the Codex contains a massive vareity of different squad markings. The Ultramarines just happen to use a paticular set that the Codex offers.

  16. #36
    Chapter Master AlphariusOmegon20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Crull View Post
    That means nothing as Insignium Astartes states that the Codex contains a massive vareity of different squad markings. The Ultramarines just happen to use a paticular set that the Codex offers.
    True, but it's their company markings that make them slightly divergent from the Codex norm. The Codex states that certain colors are used on the pauldron trim to denote company.

    The RG don't use that system, instead preferring to mark the left knee with the company number.

    I'm not arguing if they are Codex or not, it's well established that they are, but they are slightly divergent in minor almost insignificant ways.

    Now the Sallies on the other hand....... that's a whole another ball of Ward Fail wax.
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  17. #37
    Chapter Master Polaria's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Crull View Post
    If anything chapter such as the White Scars of Raven Guard are more predictable than the Ultramarines, who are not specialised in a certain form of warfare.
    There is also a bit on Raven Guards fluff about how they, unlike most other Codex chapters, analyze every battle afterwards and add their own, new notations based on 'lessons learned'. So they would not be predictable at all really.

    As for the Codex itself it does not have "all human knowledge on warfare". The limitations of codex are made quite clear on several books. For example in Fall of Damnos one discussion between Sicarius and his sergeants made it pretty clear that Sicarius was a tactical genius because he thought Codex was more of a guidelines, instead of hard-and-fast "do this" kind of book and he didn't always play by the Codex playbook.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlphariusOmegon20 View Post
    True, but it's their company markings that make them slightly divergent from the Codex norm. The Codex states that certain colors are used on the pauldron trim to denote company.

    The RG don't use that system, instead preferring to mark the left knee with the company number.
    One bit of Raven Guard fluff says that they actually don't use any single system, but instead change their marking system every once in a while to confound enemy because Codex says you should do so...
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  18. #38
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    One bit of Raven Guard fluff says that they actually don't use any single system, but instead change their marking system every once in a while to confound enemy because Codex says you should do so...[/QUOTE]


    haha i really like that idea, makes sense,

  19. #39
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaria View Post
    One bit of Raven Guard fluff says that they actually don't use any single system, but instead change their marking system every once in a while to confound enemy because Codex says you should do so...
    So do the Ultramarines. Insignium Astartes notes that it is encouraged to change uniform and heraldry to keep enemies confused as to what their particular foe is.

    Thus you could have Ultramarines operating in the 39th millennium with their helmets in the company colour, and sergeants being denoted by inverting the Chapter icon (blue on a white pad) if need be.
    "As our bodies are armoured with adamantium, our souls are protected with loyalty. As our bolters are charged with death for the Emperors enemies, our thoughts are charged with wisdom. As our ranks advance, so does our devotion, for are we not space marines? Are we not the chosen of the Emperor, his loyal servants unto death?"

  20. #40
    Chapter Master Lord_Crull's Avatar
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    Re: Raven Guard Company makeup

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphariusOmegon20 View Post
    True, but it's their company markings that make them slightly divergent from the Codex norm. The Codex states that certain colors are used on the pauldron trim to denote company.
    No, that's just one system that the Codex offers. That's just what the Ultramarines happen to use most commonly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaria View Post
    There is also a bit on Raven Guards fluff about how they, unlike most other Codex chapters, analyze every battle afterwards and add their own, new notations based on 'lessons learned'. So they would not be predictable at all really.
    How is that unique to the Raven Guard? I would expect all Astartes chapters to do that. The Index Astartes article does not say that it is unique to the Raven Guard or that most Codex chapters don't use it.

    When I mean predictable, one can expect the White Scars to use hit and run attacks alongside bikes. One can expect the Raven Guard to favor stealth and gurillea attacks. Indeed these chapters will have devoted more time and training to these methods of warfare than other methods of warfare, leaving them specialised.

    Meanwhile the Ultramarines are equally proficent in all areas of warfare and can adapt more easily to whatever tactical situation at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaria View Post
    As for the Codex itself it does not have "all human knowledge on warfare". The limitations of codex are made quite clear on several books. For example in Fall of Damnos one discussion between Sicarius and his sergeants made it pretty clear that Sicarius was a tactical genius because he thought Codex was more of a guidelines, instead of hard-and-fast "do this" kind of book and he didn't always play by the Codex playbook.
    No, that's more Black Library's interpretation of things. We know from the Marine Codices that the books is the result of hundreds of military minds across the centuries. Once again, the Codex is as only good as the mind that uses it's principals. Sicarius's own sucess depends on his ability to use that information properly.

    For example from the 5th edition Marine Codex.

    The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.
    One can follow it closely, but the Codex by it's very nature is a flexible and all-encompassing document that covers......well pretty much everything. Nothing can have absolute knowledge, but it is the closest thing to the entirety of knowledge of warfare that humanity has.

    And we know from other sources that the Codex is modifed even today by Marine chapters.

    Index Astartes Beasts of Steel

    The Liber Proditor Armorum, a treatise written in 812.M39 by Techmarine Suprema Lysol Blane of the Imperial Fists Chapter, contains many startling insights into the Traitor Legions' use of armoured vehicles.
    ...........Blane's work was to be integrated into the Codex Astartes, but upon reviewing the data the Iron Fathers of the Iron Hands Chapter objected strongly enough that the notion was set aside.
    Last edited by Lord_Crull; 08-06-2011 at 14:04.

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