Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: The Vampire Bloodlines

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Chapter Master Danny76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Ipswich, England
    Posts
    1,213

    The Vampire Bloodlines

    So there are Seven Vampire Bloodlines originally right?
    Each having their original creator and then subsequent vampires in the family.

    In the old (perhaps two editions back?) book they were listed as Von Carstein, Lahmian, Necrarch, Blood Dragons and Strigoi.

    Now from lore and being currently reading the Nagash book they have the origins of below:

    Lahmians - Neferata
    Blood Dragons - Abhorash
    Necrarch - W'soran
    Strigoi - Ushoran

    Von Carstein - Now here is where I wonder. This line obviously wasn't originally called VonC, and became that later. Do we know who the predecessor of the bloodline was.

    6 - ?
    7 - ?
    Who were the other two bloodlines, and do they still exist? Or were they wiped out long ago, or did the 6th and 7th original vamps get killed before creating a lineage (or are there 5 and I dreampt up the other two, though I'm sure the old army book I mention had 7 listed as the number).
    Currently Painting: Ork Trukk + BW. Currently Playing: Dead Rising 2 / Borderlands 2
    Currently Reading: HH16 / Age of Legend Currently Listening to: Dresden Book 3
    My Vampire Painting Log: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ire-Counts-Log
    My Nurgle Warriors Log: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...e-Warriors-Log

  2. #2
    Chapter Master nagash66's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,161

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Vashanesh for von carstein ( might or might not be vlad see tons of older threads on this), read liber necris and nights dark masters for more.

    The other 2 have some semiofficial backround on an WRPG 2 ed pdf which floats around, throw me a pm if you want a copy.
    Last edited by nagash66; 14-01-2012 at 18:18.
    If you like the Horus Heresy, mediocre painting and terrible camera work, check out my plog! For The Emperor and Sanguinius!

    Mat Ward Fact #1432- To appease the few wargamers dissatisfied with his work, Mat Ward has used his own money to set up a help-line for them to call. Please dial 1-800-WHOGIVESA****
    Guild up to join the Mat Ward Defence League!

  3. #3
    Chapter Master ashc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Doncaster, England
    Posts
    6,999

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    nagash66 is correct on Vashanesh.

    I reckon there are also more, and there is certainly room for it in the universe.
    Yeah, we flew our space church across 500 light years to get to this planet taken over by the orks. Now we're going to drop from orbit in buckets and run out and shoot pistols and hit people in the head with chainsaws. Ultramarines!

  4. #4
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,345

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    The vampire bloodlines have an interesting background pedigree. The 5th edition book introduced the idea of vampire archetypes and associated special abilities, but didn't go too far down the "bloodline" route. The 6th edition army book made it explicit and detailed five of the seven bloodlines, albeit that the von Carsteins are only debatably a true bloodline themselves. This was then supported in the WFRP supplement Night's Dark Masters which goes into the most detail on the subject and Liber Necris. Then the bloodline thing was scaled back in the 7th edition book and restored to a list of attributes that vampires could take, without necessarily having a "bloodline" connection.

    Strictly speaking, the Blood Dragons are descendants of Walach, rather than Abhorash himself, so there might be other Abhorash-get who are not Blood Dragons. The BD order was only taken over by Walach relatively late in vampiric history (the 20th century or so, iirc).

    The von Carsteins are Vashanesh-get, but it's not clear whether Vlad was an assumed name of Vashanesh or whether the von Carsteins are his only descendants. If Vlad is Vashanesh and Mannfred is correct in believing he was his first get, then the von Carsteins may be his only descendants, but it's far from clear whether that's the case (although NDM does state that Vlad and Vash' are the same).

    The other two "original" vampires, iirc, are Maatmeses and Harakhte, who both disappeared off to far corners of the world - Southlands and Cathay I think, but I'm not sure. One of them (Maatmeses?) was supposed to be very fat but there's not much more information on either.

    It was also mentioned in NDM that vampires other than the seven progenitor vampires survived the fall of Lahmia (one Lahmian vampire was named, although I forget who it was). Presumably, the qualification for being a bloodline progenitor is to have drunk directly from the Elixir, rather than simply having been around in Lahmia.

  5. #5
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    I thought that Blood Dragons as a generic term applied to all the children of Abhorash?

    With the Blood Dragon Order being just one of its manifestations, but there being plenty of "pre-Order Blood Dragons".

    Luthor Harkon might be one example. The name may imply kinship to Walach Harkon.

  6. #6
    Chapter Master nagash66's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,161

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    The red duke is another direct get of Abhorash and he is the epitome of being a blood dragon.
    If you like the Horus Heresy, mediocre painting and terrible camera work, check out my plog! For The Emperor and Sanguinius!

    Mat Ward Fact #1432- To appease the few wargamers dissatisfied with his work, Mat Ward has used his own money to set up a help-line for them to call. Please dial 1-800-WHOGIVESA****
    Guild up to join the Mat Ward Defence League!

  7. #7
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    In the WD article for the 7E army book, it pointed out that the archetypes (seducer, aristocrat, mage, beast, warrior) don't have to be tied to bloodlines- and that a Blood Dragon might sire a vampire which is less interested in being a warrior.

  8. #8
    Chapter Master Danny76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Ipswich, England
    Posts
    1,213

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    @Iron_Lord: Indeed, you could make a Necrarch who is a warrior as it's all up to you at the end of the day.

    @Athelassan: I'm assuming those who survived were mostly Lahmian as they were probably Neferatas gets mostly. But I guess they were all making followers even back then..
    So those were the seven.
    I know they mentioned the originals in Nagash book 3, but I don't know if they all came up. Ankhat, Zurhas and Naaima are the three aside from (Nef, W'soran, Abhorash and Ushoran). So is that implying that they were supposed to be the other three?

    @Nagash66: Thanks for the info, and I may have to take you up on the rpg as that'd be a plethora of information.

    ------------------------

    I know they mentioned the originals in Nagash book 3, but I don't know if they all came up. Ankhat, Zurhas and Naaima are the three aside from (Nef, W'soran, Abhorash and Ushoran). So is that implying that they were supposed to be the other three?
    Currently Painting: Ork Trukk + BW. Currently Playing: Dead Rising 2 / Borderlands 2
    Currently Reading: HH16 / Age of Legend Currently Listening to: Dresden Book 3
    My Vampire Painting Log: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ire-Counts-Log
    My Nurgle Warriors Log: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...e-Warriors-Log

  9. #9
    Chapter Master Lord Zarkov's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,174

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    With Regards to Blood Dragons:
    They got the name after Abhorash cured his thirst by draining the blood from a red dragon.
    Walach Harkon then happened across the Ordo Draconis, who lived in a castle called Blood Keep, and decided it would be deliciously ironic to turn them all into Blood Dragon vampires.

    With Regards to Master Vampires:

    It used to be that the other three were Vashenesh, Maat'mases, and Harakhate

    But the ToL books changed it to Ankhat, Zurhas and Naamia, and I'm not sure how they're meant to line up.

    Presumably Naamia is meant to replace Maat'mases (since, aside from in the unoffical BI pdf of the missing two, she was meant to be female).

    Ankhat is fairly close in name to Harakte, so they could be the ones replacing each other, but I vaguely remember when I read Nagash Immortal he might be meant to be Vashanesh's replacement instead (didn't Zhuras become a drug addict? Like BI suggested Harakhate was)

  10. #10
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,345

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Mike Lee isn't known for his rigid adherence to the previous content of the background. The rough outline of the Nagash story as told in the novels matches up with previous tellings but almost all the details are different. Some of it is an error (he admitted that he wasn't aware Arkhan was supposed to die defending Nagash against the Lahmian army, hence the "rumour" mentioned in Book 2 to explain his survival, for instance), some of it might have been deliberate.

    Personally I'd be more inclined to trust the background as laid out in army books and Liber Necris as it is much more consistent and I expect these will be the sources used by people elaborating on the background in future.

    I haven't seen the 8th ed army book for Vampires; the answer might be in there.

    I think the Blood Dragons are one of the more homogenous Bloodlines. In their first mention (the 5th ed army book) then Walach was indicated as their founder, when he took over the knightly order. However, most of Abhorash's descendants seem to operate along similar principles, as you say. I expect it's a bit like "Holland" and the "Netherlands" being used interchangeably (by non-Dutch). One is in fact a constituent part of the other but is, at least to casual observers, representative of and even indistinguishable from, the whole.

  11. #11
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Quote Originally Posted by Athelassan View Post
    Mike Lee isn't known for his rigid adherence to the previous content of the background. The rough outline of the Nagash story as told in the novels matches up with previous tellings but almost all the details are different. Some of it is an error (he admitted that he wasn't aware Arkhan was supposed to die defending Nagash against the Lahmian army, hence the "rumour" mentioned in Book 2 to explain his survival, for instance), some of it might have been deliberate.

    Personally I'd be more inclined to trust the background as laid out in army books and Liber Necris as it is much more consistent and I expect these will be the sources used by people elaborating on the background in future.
    The Heresy novels tend to override the old Index Astartes articles, even though a lot of people like the articles more.

    Maybe the same principle applies to Time of Legends.

    The current 8E book seems to have at least one nod to the Time of Legends Sigmar trilogy, on page 36: (Morkhain sidebar) by mentioning that Morath, Ushoran's lieutenant, fled with the Crown after Strigos was attacked.

    (There's also a retcon as to what happened to Kadon- in the 7E book his empire was overrun by the Orc warlord Dork Redeye, but in the 8E book he was usurped by Ushoran).

  12. #12
    Chapter Master ashc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Doncaster, England
    Posts
    6,999

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    No new info in the 8th army book.
    Yeah, we flew our space church across 500 light years to get to this planet taken over by the orks. Now we're going to drop from orbit in buckets and run out and shoot pistols and hit people in the head with chainsaws. Ultramarines!

  13. #13
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,190

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    From what I remember, it was originally intended that Harakhte originals ran off to Cathay, while Maatmeses ran off into the Southlands, with an almost Hoodoo/Vodou theme to her get. Hopefully MvS will be along sooner or later to help clear that up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialis_Dominatus View Post
    And anytime you think to yourself, "no one could be that stupid/lacking in common sense/unreasonable/etc."... tell yourself, very loudly, "I AM WRONG," and slap yourself in the face. Hard. Because you are wrong. Because someone out there is, in fact, that stupid, unreasonable, lacking in common sense, etc. I assure you.

  14. #14
    Chapter Master ashc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Doncaster, England
    Posts
    6,999

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    I also remember talk of one that left for the Chaos Wastes... but was that Vashanesh only getting as far as Kislev...
    Yeah, we flew our space church across 500 light years to get to this planet taken over by the orks. Now we're going to drop from orbit in buckets and run out and shoot pistols and hit people in the head with chainsaws. Ultramarines!

  15. #15
    Chapter Master nagash66's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,161

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Quote Originally Posted by ashc View Post
    I also remember talk of one that left for the Chaos Wastes... but was that Vashanesh only getting as far as Kislev...
    If it was Vashanesh who says he never entered the wastes...
    If you like the Horus Heresy, mediocre painting and terrible camera work, check out my plog! For The Emperor and Sanguinius!

    Mat Ward Fact #1432- To appease the few wargamers dissatisfied with his work, Mat Ward has used his own money to set up a help-line for them to call. Please dial 1-800-WHOGIVESA****
    Guild up to join the Mat Ward Defence League!

  16. #16
    Chapter Master Lord Zarkov's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,174

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    One was described as heading to the far north, could be assumed to be the wastes or simply the north of the human realms. Remember, compared to Nehekhara even Kislev & Norsca is the far north.

    Re-read parts of Nagash Immortal last night:
    If we are going to link up the new Master Vampires IMO it would have to be as follows:
    Ankhat => Vashenesh (the most warrior-like after Abhorash, says he wants to go and dominate the "northern Barbarians".
    Naamia => Maatmeses (female, wanted to slip off south)
    Zhuras => Slain in the sack of Lahmia
    Prince Xian Ha Feng of Cathay => Harakhate (goes off to Cathay, although long before the sack of Lahmia)

    This is obviously only correlating their 'after Lahmia' positions, not their before ones, but IMO the differences could be explained by the following:
    1) Corruption of names due to them being Reichisised from the original High Nehekharan.
    2) Vashanesh lying to his get to big himself up. Sounds far more impressive to say he's the Prince of Khemri, relation of Nagash, Consort of Neferata, Leader of Nagash's army, etc; then Neferata's de facto Vizier, and a 'mere' Lahmian nobleman (if the most influential one). So he creates the character of "Harakhte" (which may simply be a corruption of Ankhat) to fill his actual role, and makes up a new mythos glorifying himself as Vashanesh. He then claims Harakhte went east to Cathay to explain the vampires there (and Ankhat's possibly documented escape), and that Prince Xian was slain in the sack of Lahmia (explaining why there are not two Cathayan vampire clans. This also explains where the 9th (unmentioned in ToL) Master Vampire, who slain in the sack of Lahmia, came from.

    Of course we could just ignore ToL, but GW have claimed they're supposed to be the 'definitive' version, so we're probably just going to have to get used to it.

    Edit @ Iron Lord:
    Morath was always in the background, right back to WA:Undead, it was he that fled Moukarin with the Crown of Sorcery, although originally he was one of Kadon's Apprentices.

    Having Kadon usurped by Ushoran is a return to the 6th Ed/Liber Necris/NDM background.
    Last edited by Lord Zarkov; 15-01-2012 at 10:18.

  17. #17
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zarkov View Post
    Morath was always in the background, right back to WA:Undead, it was he that fled Moukarin with the Crown of Sorcery, although originally he was one of Kadon's Apprentices.

    Having Kadon usurped by Ushoran is a return to the 6th Ed/Liber Necris/NDM background.
    So, less a retcon than a "re-retcon" then?

    I couldn't find any reference to Kadon being usurped by Ushoran in the 6E Vampire Counts rulebook- must have been the other two sources you cite.

  18. #18
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,190

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Vashanesh was stated to have done what he did from an omnipresent narrator, rather than in-character. I could understand the whole "Vashanesh was actually just a big lie to make himself sound important", but it's never been presented as the only information coming from Vashanesh himself.

    Really, I'm just putting it down to Mike Lee once again taking a few too many liberties with his background, or just not having a proper understanding of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialis_Dominatus View Post
    And anytime you think to yourself, "no one could be that stupid/lacking in common sense/unreasonable/etc."... tell yourself, very loudly, "I AM WRONG," and slap yourself in the face. Hard. Because you are wrong. Because someone out there is, in fact, that stupid, unreasonable, lacking in common sense, etc. I assure you.

  19. #19
    Chapter Master Lord Zarkov's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,174

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord-Caerolion View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Vashanesh was stated to have done what he did from an omnipresent narrator, rather than in-character. I could understand the whole "Vashanesh was actually just a big lie to make himself sound important", but it's never been presented as the only information coming from Vashanesh himself.

    Really, I'm just putting it down to Mike Lee once again taking a few too many liberties with his background, or just not having a proper understanding of it.
    All the background on Vashanesh is from Liber Necris (or from NDM which is based on it and supposed to be partly in character). Liber Necris is written by Mannfred, who would have got it from Vashanesh himself. Indeed the names Maatmeses and Harakhate first appear in Liber Necris as well.

    The only thing my theory explains that didn't originate there is the second Master Vampire slain in Lahmia. Mike Lee's account fits with most things that were released before Necris (exceptions being names of kings of Khemri (admittedly a big one), and a slight change in Arkhan's death (which can be chalked up to "written by the victors"). However it disagrees with everything that was new in Liber Necris (no undead before Cripple Peak, names for the remaining Master Vampires, etc).

    Obviously he didn't read Liber Necris, which is unfortunate because the background in there is really good, and it's now caused discontinuity. However, it is now written, and GW had declared it the definitive version, so we have to work around it somehow.

    Edit @ Iron_Lord
    Basically yes.

    With regards to Mourkain, WA:Undead had it founded by Kadon and run by him until overrun with Orcs, 6E VC (in the Strigoi section) has him and his followers come across it and eventually take control. Liber Necris confirms that yes, Ushoran simply supplanted Kadon to take his artefacts of Nagash.
    Last edited by Lord Zarkov; 15-01-2012 at 10:50.

  20. #20
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: The Vampire Bloodlines

    The 6E VC book doesn't actually mention Kadon himself though- leaving it open that Ushoran discovered the city long after Kadon's death (as the 7E VC book portrays it as- giving a date for Ushoran's arrival, and the founding of Strigos, as -250.)

    A case could be made that the 8E book takes more account of Liber Necris than the 7E book did- pushing the date of Ushoran's arrival back, and explicitly having him supplant Kadon.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •