Blood in the Badlands

[Urgat]

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Edited as it goes:
V0.4 up 27/07/2014
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So, that book is cool. Anyway. There's obviously a distinct lack of race-specific siege gear to be found in it.
What is there:

Besiegers:

Order:
Empire: Stank ram upgrade

Destruction
Skavens: magma warpcanon
Vampires: ghost things (not gonna try and find the english translation, sorry )

And... that's it.

Besieged:

Nothing!
But we got themed stuff that could be attributed to species in case there was one option per race:

Order:
dwarfs: dwarf brewery
Empire: Altar of Sigmar

Destruction:
VC: haunted ... chatelet?
WoC/DE/demons? tower of blood

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So there's room for improvement. Now I know this forum is, at best, pretty much ignored by everybody, so I'm not going to spend hours on rules as long as I'm not going to have the opportunity to play a siege game, but I can at least get the ball running and see if anything will come up at all.

My first idea's a pretty simple one really: make all the artillery choices available as gear choices (say brets can spend all their allowance in trebuchets, HE in RBT, goblins in spear chukkas, etc). Obviously, though, a straight point conversion won't work. Everything must cost way more than what they actually cost in the normal list. What do you think should be the upping factor? x10? I feel things like the WoC hellcanons should be allowed to be taken at least twice in a 2k pts siege, though.
Well anyway, let's see if this goes anywhere at all. i'm not going to lead or anything. If people post, that's great. If they don't, well, the topic will die a silent death as usual. I'm not going to engage in a dialogue with one guy interested in it and that's it, though, there's no point. If it lives, I'll just drop my opinion as a regular poster if anything comes up, but that's it. I just thought it was sad that nobody even tried, because this book is pure hobby material, and, well, the hobby side of WFB should be kept going.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Don't be so defeatist, Urgat.

It's that kind of attitude that keeps this forum locked in a cycle of momentary flourishes of activity followed by long droughts and doldrums. If more well known posters like yourself threw their figurative weight around here, traffic would increase.

Short version: keep it coming.

Now back to the topic: I haven't read Badlands myself, but the impression I get from many is that it's an interesting book that simply doesn't have much depth, either in a general sense or in the details.

I like your idea of making artillery as part of the purchasable attachments to the army, as this will encourage players to either set down batteries of siege weapons or include more living (or unliving) units. Both results sound like fun.

Had I wrote the book myself, I think I would have done something akin to Planetstrike in 40k, where you have an assortment of stratagems to pay for and which allow for all kinds of shenanigans, such as tunneling, manipulating weather, etc. I would throw siege equipment alongside this into a big pot and let players choose various tactics for besieging and defending, from the straightforward and brutal to the outlandish and esoteric.

Now, on the assumption that you're more interested in adding to the specific layout of Badlands, I see no reason why your 10x multiplier would not work. Moreover, I think the option for artillery batteries should be considered, with perhaps a point increase and some kind of bonus along with it. Another consideration is to use the rules (with obvious points and wording adjustments) for the siege towers that appeared in White Dwarf during the Storm of Chaos. I remember everything from a Tzeentchian Siege Tower to a massive treeman who carried either beastmen or wood elves.

[Hellebore]

Why not just bring back the siege equipment found in 6th ed? Molten metal, poison blood etc.

Or raid the old siege supplements for ideas.

hellebore

[ArtificerArmour]

I have one for beastmen:

Horn of the ghorgon (name tbc)

Based on the short snippet in the beastman army book which involved blowing a horn inside a village and a gorgon running straight through the gates. I was thinking choose a turn to activate it, and a gorgon marches 12inch on a random table edge. They move 12in each turn, in a straight line, unable to assualt anything or make any other actions, each unit underneath taking d6 st 6hit (in a seige the only real units would be the beastmens own!) until it hits the wall which when it moves into contact counts as assualting.

Basically, you have to kill it before it hits the wall. Which is acheiveable. I think around 300 seige points is fair for it (or 500 if it automatically has the monstrous ram upgrade).

Thoughts?

[Urgat]

Don't be so defeatist, Urgat.

It's that kind of attitude that keeps this forum locked in a cycle of momentary flourishes of activity followed by long droughts and doldrums. If more well known posters like yourself threw their figurative weight around here, traffic would increase.

Short version: keep it coming.

Honestly, I've tried a couple times already, I never see any topic here that doesn't turn quickly into a dialogue between the OP and that one guy who likes the idea. Well, I've put the link in my sig, we'll see if I'm proven wrong.

Now back to the topic: I haven't read Badlands myself, but the impression I get from many is that it's an interesting book that simply doesn't have much depth, either in a general sense or in the details.

It's simple, but not simplistic, I would say. It's very well done, and leans on the existing rules instead of burying the player under new, esoteric ones. The siege tower rules are a perfect example of that.

I like your idea of making artillery as part of the purchasable attachments to the army, as this will encourage players to either set down batteries of siege weapons or include more living (or unliving) units. Both results sound like fun.

Had I wrote the book myself, I think I would have done something akin to Planetstrike in 40k, where you have an assortment of stratagems to pay for and which allow for all kinds of shenanigans, such as tunneling, manipulating weather, etc. I would throw siege equipment alongside this into a big pot and let players choose various tactics for besieging and defending, from the straightforward and brutal to the outlandish and esoteric.

Well, the selection is very weak (two pages, 3 or 4 options per pages), but that's what they've done. You can, for instance, summon ghosts within the castle you're besieging, stuff like that.

Now, on the assumption that you're more interested in adding to the specific layout of Badlands, I see no reason why your 10x multiplier would not work. Moreover, I think the option for artillery batteries should be considered, with perhaps a point increase and some kind of bonus along with it. Another consideration is to use the rules (with obvious points and wording adjustments) for the siege towers that appeared in White Dwarf during the Storm of Chaos. I remember everything from a Tzeentchian Siege Tower to a massive treeman who carried either beastmen or wood elves.

The problem with the x10 multiplier is that I threw it randomly, that's what the problem is
Let's say I think it'd be fair for a spear chukka to cost 350pts, but not for a doom diver to cost 1000pts (I don't remember their actual cost, sorry, books not at home). Tentatively, for instance, I'd put the chukka at 350, and the DD, and the rock lobba as well, at 500. But, really, I don't know.

Why not just bring back the siege equipment found in 6th ed? Molten metal, poison blood etc.

Or raid the old siege supplements for ideas.

hellebore

Why not indeed? I suppose everybody has thought about that (I own the 5th ed siege book, it was great) The problem, as for the rest, is fair pricing. I'm not good at that, that's why I've started this topic. Adapting existing rules to BitBL should be the best step to take, imho. The second best step would be to take entries of the ABs that people are likely to have, but usually don't use, because they underperform (overcosted, etc), and give them a BRB rule or make them merely ignore an existing rule (I insist, no new rule. Like for regular special rules, you can name their ability however you wish to -Speed of Asuryan -> ASF-, but the effects should be existing already), that makes them an interesting choice as siege "gear". Example:
-WoC forsaken - grappling claws: forsakens can climb walls thanks to their claws, tentacles and so on, as easily as they would climb up a stair, allowing them to fall on their opponents as if they were on an open field. They ignore the WS and I malus infantry suffers from when assaulting walls. (I've always seen them as the successors to the SoC flayerkins )

ArtificerArmour: anything that is based on existing rules is good imho; translating the Gorghon to a siege weapon choice, especially if it's supported by an example in the fluff, is the same kind of obvious deal as putting warmachines there (basically, something GW should have put in the book by default). Giants, treemen, greater demons, stonehorns, everything that could act as a living ram should be in there.
I think it should be a magic item, maybe? With a casting value & all. When you cast the spell, just as any other spell, you point a target, which must be an element of the castle. If the spell is cast successfully, the ghorgon "spawns" on the besieging player's table edge, and must go straight to its target by the shortest path. Once it has destroyed its target, it's free to do whatever the player wants. I think it's simpler that way. What do you think?

[ArtificerArmour]

Artificer armour, not artificial

How about an item for a unit, like a fanatic. One turn you can declare that te wielder is breaking formation and moves D6 in the movement phase. He is a marker that has to remain still - the ghorgon comes on and must move directly towards him. After the ghorgon touches him ot the ghorgons removed as a casualty hes automatically removed as a casualty.

[Urgat]

Artificer armour, not artificial

woops, edited

After the ghorgon touches him ot the ghorgons removed as a casualty hes automatically removed as a casualty.

I'm afraid I didn't understand

[Gazak Blacktoof]

I've not picked up a copy of the book so I can't comment on specifics unfortunately.

If you're looking for additional rules for defenders then I'd suggest looking at the existing terrain rules in the BRB. I see no reason that you can't include an altar to khaine in a dark elf fortress, or place an arcane ruin or bane stone atop almost any tower. What about walls that are surrounded by a charnel pit or crenelations inscribed with runes that make it count as a magic circle, or a blessed bulwark?

I think these would be easy bonuses to apply as the rules are there. You'd obviously need a list or table stating which armies can purchase the specific upgrades, then all you'd need to do is think of a way to apply them, ie where they can be placed, and assign a points value to each upgrade and simply refer people to the BRB for the rules.

Just something to think about.

[Urgat]

Good idea, didn't think of that.
edit: actually, they've done just that for a few upgrades (Altar of Sigmar, Dwarf Brewery, sorcerer tower, etc), I didn't even realize those upgrades were terrain from the BRB turned into castle upgrades. They're all 500 points, that makes things simpler.

[Urgat]

I've edited the first post with a PDF of what I've done so far. It covers the most basic things for the Empire, OnG, Dwarfs, Chaos Warriors, Bretonnians and Beastmen. Comments if you want.

I've decided to go simple with the monsters (sorry ArtificerArmour), at least for now, so they're just picked as usual, no special rules. Comparing with the stuff in the actual book, I might have gone easy on prices, they're prone to adjustments, but for that, I need feedback.

Roadmap:
Next version (v0.2), I'll add the remaining races, plus a section for the gear everybody can take (siege towers, siege rams, etc)
Then (v0.3) I'll add little icons for the entries that can receive siege ammunition or equip monstrous battering clubs (though it should be pretty obvious). I might add a couple such upgrades for other armies (poisonous missiles for LM, flaming, stuff like that)
V0.4 will see a more in depth integration of what BRB terrain can be adapted to the rules ( Thanks to Gazak Blacktoof for the suggestion). Clarification concerning whether you're allowed to buy options, or don't have to (screaming bell w/o grey seer)
V0.5, hopefully, I'll have some feedback and will adapt points
V0.6, I'll peruse through my old copy of "Siege", the 5th ed supplement. I'll try and see if there's stuff that can be used from the General's Compendium, too.
From then, I'll make corrections if needed (this includes finding old units that don't exist anymore but could be used in sieges, like the Arcanodon EotG variant from the Lustria supplement). Once I'm happy, it'll jump straight to V1, which will be final.

I would be grateful if people could check the names, most of my books are french ones, so my translations might be off.

[Daniel36]

Cool stuff buddy! This is actually one of those "Rule developments" that I can actually see take flight and be used by people. It's not like you are writing "Warhammer Armies: This really cool race I invented", you are actually just taking bits of official GW material from other sources and put them together into what Blood in the Badlands could've been. You are turning a fun product into a great product.

I am too groggy right now to come up with any ideas, but you had a typo in your Empire ligt. Orcs and Gobelins.

[SunTzu]

you had a typo in your Empire ligt. Orcs and Gobelins.

You had a typ-... never mind. ;-)

[Mister Blak]

There are a couple of these on the ogre stronghold, two suggested by me, but those are ogre-specific.

perhaps some kind of earthquake spell for downing walls (for use by slann), and a risky form of EBTS for TK.

[Urgat]

I am too groggy right now to come up with any ideas, but you had a typo in your Empire ligt. Orcs and Gobelins.

Woops, it's not a typo, I wrote it the French way I'll correct it for the next version. Thanks for your comment

There are a couple of these on the ogre stronghold, two suggested by me, but those are ogre-specific.

perhaps some kind of earthquake spell for downing walls (for use by slann), and a risky form of EBTS for TK.

Well, as I said before, I don't want to create new rules, my goal is to adapt existing stuff to BitBL. That being said, nothing prevents people from using multiple such lists together if they want more options. I'll just let others handle the more exotic stuff.

[Urgat]

v0.2 is pretty much done. I need someone with the BitBL book to tell me the English names for what I'd call "Tower of Blood" and "Haunted Chatelet" (p94/95), if possible?

[snyggejygge]

Tower of Blood is correct, the other one is Haunted Mansion

[Brother Loki]

This is a really nice bit of work Urgat. Simple and elegant.

[Urgat]

Hop, I've uploaded v0.2. Please tell me if my translations aren't dodgy anywhere.
I haven't included the Haunted Mansion yet, this is normal, it's obviously a VC thing, but at the same time gaining fear makes them get terror, that might be a bit too much. I'll see.

[Eldred91]

I don't have my Blood in the Badlands book with me so I can't check translations unfortunately.

Overall though a really nice simple bit of work which adds quite a lot of depth to the supplement. One thing I would suggest is to play about with how units are presented, so instead of Harpies being listed as +11 points make the entry go something like this:

5+ Harpies 22pts/model

It would just make things look a bit clearer in my opinion.

[DaemonReign]

This was cool. I was much inspired by it! Merci!

For Daemons.. I'd like to see 'Siege Equipment' in the form of Daemonic Gifts.. I.e. perhaps you can invest a few hundred points in an Axe that lets the Bloodthirster smash down the castle walls.. Something like that.

My group have been trying for the longest time to get started on a Campaign using the Blood in the Badlands 'rules' but everytime we start talking about it there's just so much that needs fixing.. it ends up being pretty much a whole new campaign from scratch.. but the idea and general philosophy is cool though.

Nice work Urgat. I really just wanted to bump this stuff to the top of the page.. Felt like the least I could do after having indulged in it for a while..