What happened to the Ringwraiths after the ring was destroyed?

[Getifa Ubazza]

I'm making a couple good armies based after the end of the LotR's movies, But having never read the books, I have no idea what really happened or what Evil forces survived.

One army will be based on Legolas and Gimli's exploring of Fangorn forest and the Glittering Caves of Helm's Deep. As Legolas ends up founding an Elf-colony in Ithilien, I decided to put them with some Wood Elves to help them in their exploring.

My Gondor Force will be a generic one for friends to use.

I want to make an evil force for my 2 good forced to chase down and destroy or discover on their adventures, But don't want to include anything that's already destroyed. I suspect there will be many Orcs to hunt down and probably some Trolls.

I also think Shelob is a safe bet, as I don't think she was actually killed by Sam. Was she?

I just don't know what happened to The Ringwraiths. Did they continue on after Sauron was destroyed?
What other (Named) evil leaders survived after Sauron was Destroyed?

Thanks

[Peregrin]

The ring kept them alive, so they came to their end when it did.

Pretty much any other creature other than say dragons or balrogs should be fair game.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

What other (Named) evil leaders survived after Sauron was Destroyed?

Not many, unfortunately. At least not the recognizable ones.

I think you could make a case for Druzhag, Kardush, Groblog, Ashrak, Amdur, Dalamyr, Thrydan, and the Golden King of Harad since they're all GW inventions (unless the GW fluff depicts their deaths somewhere), and other than that maybe some of the named uruk-hai captains from Isengard, although I think Isengard's armies are supposed to be pretty much toast by the end of the War of the Ring. Lurtz is obviously dead and Mauhur and Ugluk ought to be dead too (would have been killed by Eomer and his men when they ambushed the orc camp at night), but maybe Vrasku escaped and has a warband of orcs and uruks wandering around Rhovanion. If ignoring movie fluff and going by the books then neither Gothmog nor the Mouth of Sauron is stated to have been slain (if memory serves correctly), although suggesting that either survived their respective battle is a bit of a stretch. Maybe less so for the Mouth of Sauron, and he would certainly make a good villain for a Fourth Age campaign. If you feel like getting creative, I know of one person that devised a 4th Age campaign which supposed that the two blue wizards had gone bad and were rallying the various Eastern races of men to join them.

As far as troops go, orcs and evil men are the order of the day, especially Harad and Easterlings. I would think you'd probably avoid much in the way of very large monsters, although there are probably still some trolls in the various armies. Undead seem unlikely to bend to the will of lesser evil leaders such as orcs and men, so I think without Sauron and the Nazgul they'd be out of the picture, at least as part of an organized force.

[Getifa Ubazza]

The ring kept them alive, so they came to their end when it did.

Pretty much any other creature other than say dragons or balrogs should be fair game.

Now that's a shame. I was really liking the idea of Legolas and Gimli having a go at a Dragon or Cave Drake. The Balrog, I'm not bothered about. Still hoping Shelob is alive, as I think the boys would have fun against her.

Not many, unfortunately. At least not the recognizable ones.

I think you could make a case for Druzhag, Kardush, Groblog, Ashrak, Amdur, Dalamyr, Thrydan, and the Golden King of Harad since they're all GW inventions (unless the GW fluff depicts their deaths somewhere), and other than that maybe some of the named uruk-hai captains from Isengard, although I think Isengard's armies are supposed to be pretty much toast by the end of the War of the Ring. Lurtz is obviously dead and Mauhur and Ugluk ought to be dead too (would have been killed by Eomer and his men when they ambushed the orc camp at night), but maybe Vrasku escaped and has a warband of orcs and uruks wandering around Rhovanion. If ignoring movie fluff and going by the books then neither Gothmog nor the Mouth of Sauron is stated to have been slain (if memory serves correctly), although suggesting that either survived their respective battle is a bit of a stretch. Maybe less so for the Mouth of Sauron, and he would certainly make a good villain for a Fourth Age campaign. If you feel like getting creative, I know of one person that devised a 4th Age campaign which supposed that the two blue wizards had gone bad and were rallying the various Eastern races of men to join them.

As far as troops go, orcs and evil men are the order of the day, especially Harad and Easterlings. I would think you'd probably avoid much in the way of very large monsters, although there are probably still some trolls in the various armies. Undead seem unlikely to bend to the will of lesser evil leaders such as orcs and men, so I think without Sauron and the Nazgul they'd be out of the picture, at least as part of an organized force.

The main reason I came here was to find out about the book fluff rather than the movies, as I have seen those.

I like the Idea of Gothmog and the Mouth of Sauron escaping and Legolas and Gimli going on a quest to find them and to then call on Gondor for an Evil Last stand type game. How long can The Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog and hopefully Shelob continue to escape with their lives?

So for Warbands I'm looking at 2 Orc Warbands, an Easterling one, a Harad one, a Warg Riders one and some Trolls with The Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Shelob and a couple generic Captains? Do you think I could fit all that into 1000 pts. If I was able to, I would like to pop an Umbar Warband in there too, But doubt I would have the points for everything.

I'm guessing at 500pts of Mordor and 500pts of Fallen Realms then?

[Peregrin]

Cave drakes would still be a possibility, but Smaug was pretty much the last serious dragon threat.
Any of the Misty Mountain or Mirkwood monsters would need to be hunted out (bats, spiders, trolls, dweller in the dark, watcher in the water, wild wargs, etc.) There could also be pockets of unruly undead, such as in the Barrow Downs, but not really armies of them. They would attack anything living, though. I agree that they would be unlikely to work with men or orcs without Nazgul or the 'Necromancer' (Sauron) to command them.

Book wise, there are no real evil undead as we understand them. The only ghosts I can think of are the ones who worked for Aragorn. The Wights that the hobbits were captured by were actually lesser spirits like Sauron himself, sent by his leftenant (Witch King) to use the bodies of the dead 'good guys' in order to act on the physical world. They weren't actually the dead person come back in any sense. Now, that's an arguement from silence, so I'm not trying to dispute GW's portrayal of the Angmar list, but it is not actually present in the LotR books.

Gothmog wasn't really a character in the books, but died in the movies. Could be used as a general Orc overlord.

[Getifa Ubazza]

Cave drakes would still be a possibility, but Smaug was pretty much the last serious dragon threat.
Any of the Misty Mountain or Mirkwood monsters would need to be hunted out (bats, spiders, trolls, dweller in the dark, watcher in the water, wild wargs, etc.) There could also be pockets of unruly undead, such as in the Barrow Downs, but not really armies of them. They would attack anything living, though. I agree that they would be unlikely to work with men or orcs without Nazgul or the 'Necromancer' (Sauron) to command them.

Book wise, there are no real evil undead as we understand them. The only ghosts I can think of are the ones who worked for Aragorn. The Wights that the hobbits were captured by were actually lesser spirits like Sauron himself, sent by his leftenant (Witch King) to use the bodies of the dead 'good guys' in order to act on the physical world. They weren't actually the dead person come back in any sense. Now, that's an arguement from silence, so I'm not trying to dispute GW's portrayal of the Angmar list, but it is not actually present in the LotR books.

Gothmog wasn't really a character in the books, but died in the movies. Could be used as a general Orc overlord.

The biggest army I would be building for any faction will be 500pts, so not really an army. More a Hunting party. In the case of the Evil sides. They would just be pockets of evil that escaped after the war, But are enough of an issue, that someone needs to deal with them.

I looked up Gothmog and got results for a Balrog leader, not an Orc leader. Interesting.

Not really wanting to do any undead, But loving the idea of Spiders and Bats and all kinds of things like that.

[Peregrin]

Yeah... on the special features of one of the extended DVD's, Jackson (I think) talks about wanting an orc captain for the viewers to focus on, but there not being any, really, in the books. He just got his researchers to grab some 'evil' names from Tolkien's materials and he liked Gothmog, if I remember correctly.

[Getifa Ubazza]

Yeah... on the special features of one of the extended DVD's, Jackson (I think) talks about wanting an orc captain for the viewers to focus on, but there not being any, really, in the books. He just got his researchers to grab some 'evil' names from Tolkien's materials and he liked Gothmog, if I remember correctly.

Oh! I see. I'm listening to The Hobbit right now on Youtube http://youtu.be/j7zn64Y2Ogg It sounds as though it was read for kids, But it's still pretty good.

So is Shelob still alive?

[Sophet Drahas]

Shelob was still alive and is a very ancient creature. She scurried back into her hole and was recovering from her wounds when the book ended. She also had no affiliation with Sauron or Isengard. Look up her wiki, there's some history on her and her origin.

As for the others I can't say. I thought Wormtongue survived after stabbing Sharky in the back but I could be wrong.

EDIT: Wormtongue was shot by a hobbit after slitting Sharky's throat. He's dead.

[Stargorger]

@All

Not sure if this is really answering any questions per say, but I thought this might be useful information in considering leaders after the 3A.

To Shelob: Far as I understand it, essentially Shelob is an Ent. Or what an Ent is. Way back when Middle Earth was being refined by the Valar, a number of other lesser spirits (angels if you like) entered the world . Some took physical form, like the Valar, but most stayed as spirits. However Illuvitar had placed a limit on spirits entering the world, that those who did so would take physical form and become bound to the constricts of Time and Finite. Thus, the spirits that had entered the world in this way began to become more ‘world-like’ and to take on the characteristics of the aspects of the world which they most loved and reflected. One such spirit, a powerful being named Ungoliant, took on the form of a massive spider-like beast, being enamoured with darkness, cunning, poison, trickery, etc…Shelob was a half-spirit, if you will, a child of Ungoliant. She is mortal and bound to Middle Earth (and can die) but only because she was born to Ungoliant after that spirit had become physical. Make sense?
So Shelob is not dead and never will be until someone who can kill her physically comes…she won’t die of sickness or old age.

Now, taking this information: I think it’s safe to assume that there are other great spirits that took other unnamed forms (or some forgotten ones…I STILL want to see what a ‘wereworm’ looks like lol) that Tolkien didn’t mention.

As to captains: Gothmog was the name of Melkor’s Balrog lieutenant during the War of Wrath. I think it’s perfectly in keeping that some snooty Orc would name himself after a balrog commander ;-)

The ringwraiths were humans whose bodies disintegrated over time but whose spirits were held to the mortal plane by the power of the Ring. Without the ring, they vanished. Likewise the Watchers of Cirith Ungol, the Castellans of Dol Guldar, etc…anything created or sustained by the power of the Ring.

The Barrow Wights were not. As mentioned they were evil spirits summoned by the Witch King to inhabit the corpses of the fallen kings of Eriador. But, now having come to the mortal realm (like I said about Shelob), they are now physical, and bound to the world, and can be killed. Thus, I think it’s probably safe to say that there are other ‘ghost’ (read, spirit-possessed undead) legions still around from the fall of Angmar.

[Peregrin]

@Stargorger - I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm not sure I would read all of that quite the same way as you do. You're right on with Ungoliant and Shelob. Also, that the other giant spiders are basically Shelob's children. The only being with more power on the evil side (and only barely) than Ungoliant was Melkor/Morgoth himself. The first Dragons, the Balrogs, etc. were all like that.

I'm not sure I agree that the Ents or the Wights were similar. Unlike the dragons or balrogs, wights did not take a physical form, but rather took control and animated a physical form that was already present. In that sense they can't be killed, but their animated 'objects' can be destroyed. For instance, stabbing a wight through the chest would do nothing. In fact, one of the ones that capture the hobbits was reduced to a disembodied hand, but was still animated, aware, and malicious.

The orgin of Ents seems to be a lot more obscure.

Also (although I can tell Stargorger gets this point) just to clarify, Aragorn's 'army of the dead' seem to be what we would traditionally consider to be ghosts: humans who's spirits are still engaged with the mortal plane. Whenever the evil spirits are mentioned, they have similar origins to Gandalf and Melkor. They were essentially angels or fallen angels that have taken a physical form or are interacting with the mortal plane in some other way. They were not mortals to begin with.

Oh, and FYI, the Hobbit was written for children and as a result has some very silly bits that seem uncharacteristic of the rest of Tolkien's works, to the point of not being consistant with his world. It should be considered Bilbo's 'version' of events with some slight editorial revisions by later Redbook authors.

[Stargorger]

@Peregrin

lol can I just say you're fun to discuss this with? lol in a totally non-creepy way

Anyway. Right about the Wights. Good point, I'd forgotten that. I’m not sure that the explanation of Wights necessitates that all evil spirit-beings are therefore like them. I mean I realize that’s how the Wights and such are described, but since there IS the example of Ungoliant I would guess there are other evil spirits that took physical form in a similar fashion. Not that there HAVE to be, but it COULD be. :-)

As to Ents: I’m pretty sure that’s described in the Silmarillion, or maybe the history of Middle Earth. It’s mentioned that they were lesser than maia spirits that came to love the trees until they became tree-like beings, and that it’s along the same lines that Ents eventually become just trees that can talk, and so on. Or at least some of them are. Obviously there were Ent-wives and Entings, but my guess is Fangorn and the other two at least, the ‘original’ Ents, were spirits that took that form (if unwittingly).

Also…about ‘not mortals to begin with’…I’m not disagreeing, but thinking out-loud here…what does that make Shelob and the other giant spiders? Or the Entings? Or the baby Great Eagles? Are they then fully mortal, or…? I wonder how that works. Hmm! Interesting.

[Peregrin]

@Peregrin

lol can I just say you're fun to discuss this with? lol in a totally non-creepy way
....

Lol! Agreed!

You're right that I'm making an arguement from silence. There could definitely be other former heavenly being creatures out there in Middle Earth, who just aren't directly affecting the histories in the Red Book (Hobbit and LotR) so Tolkien doesn't mention.

I'll have to research a bit more on the Ents. I'm going mostly on what's said in LotR itself, which leaves it obscure. Fangorn does say that some Ents have become sleepy and 'treeish', while the elves were the ones who started waking up the actual trees to be more 'Entish'.

[Stargorger]

Hmm true. Forgotten that part about the elves. Man I could sworn I saw it somewhere…hmm. Although…guess we gotta ask HOW the Elves awoke them…were they ALWAYS sleeping, and had minds and thoughts, or did the Elves somehow impart that to them? Because if it’s the latter, doesn’t that kinda mean the Ents are just golems, essentially?

[Peregrin]

I think Fangorn was speaking more of the trees (huorns? sp?) rather than Ents. I don't remember reading the origins of Ents. Trolls, however, are basically stone golems that were created by 'the enemy' (I'll assume Morgoth) in mockery of the Ents.

Edit:
Ok. Found it. It is a 'previously unpublished' section of the Silmarillion, so it may not be in my copy.

http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Ents

It's not explicitly stated that 'this is the origin of Ents', but basically the King and Queen Valar (archangels) called 'spirits' to inhabit some of the Kelvar (fauna) and Olvar (flora). The chief of these were the Eagles and the Ents. If their childeren were like the children of Ungoliant and Shelob, then their offspring were in fact born mortal.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Just to clear the record, there are two characters in the literature named Gothmog. First and better known is the captain of the Balrogs from the first age, who died during the siege of Gondolin.

The Gothmog I'm talking about was indeed the commander of Mordor's armies at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, although he is only very briefly mentioned and is not stated to be an orc (or anything else for that matter). He could just as easily be a black Numenorean or another name for one of the other Nazgul. Peter Jackson just fleshed the character out from one line in the book to the Mr. Potato Head orc general we see in the movies. And, as has been pointed out, that character dies in the movies but his fate is never determined in the books. Since Mordor's army is pretty much crushed it seems a safe bet that he died, but I don't see anything wrong with coming up with your own narrative wherein he escaped.

[Stargorger]

@Whitwort
Could you quote the line and/or reference the text? I believe you I just am surprised I missed that and would be interested to read the section that, apparently, I blanked on lol.

@Peregrin
Ah yeah there's the part I was talking about. Thanks for proving my argument for me ;-)

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

@Whitwort
Could you quote the line and/or reference the text? I believe you I just am surprised I missed that and would be interested to read the section that, apparently, I blanked on lol

Ha, I don't blame you. I considered myself a huge Tolkien nerd but I didn't know of that character until after the movie came out and I went and looked him up.

He gets a whopping 1 mention in 1 sentence out of the chapter "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields":

And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain [referring to the Witch King]. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray

Jackson definitely played up his role, since in the book it sounds like he pretty much took command only after Eowyn and Merry defeated the Witch King.

It seems odd that Peter Jackson would take a one-line character and make him into a major antagonist, but then it also seems odd that Tolkien would say so little about a character of quite high rank. I guess we just chalk it up to the fact that the evil armies are often poorly described in general.

[Peregrin]

Well done, both of you.

[Stargorger]

@Whitwort
Cool. Thanks for the help!
Hmm. Lol but then, PJ also added Galadhrim at Helm’s Deep (which, while cool, added nothing), and forced Treebeard to be ‘tricked’ by Pippin into attacking Isengard, etc…so, yeah. There’s a precedent. At least Gothmog IS in the story lol.

@Peregrin
Lol thanks