Are the Tau the counter to the Imperium?

[salty]

Following on from the "Are the Tau screwed" thread, I think the Tau may be the race destined to bring down the Imperium.

My evidence; the Enslaver plague wiped out the Ork "Brain Boyz". The Nids and Orks wiped out the Squats. Slaanesh and the encroaching Imperial Empire disected the Eldar Empire.

So, tehrefore, are the Tau, another fledgling Empire, going to bring down the Imperium? Obviously not in the near future of course.

Thoughts?

Salty

[athamas]

well if they survive long enough. potentialy.. however, there are large concentrations of nids and orks near the tau, and the imperium is getting altitle anouyed with the tau for stealing all their planets!


potentialy the tau could counter the imperium, but not for a very long time!

[Bruen]

Maybe, but not for a very long time.

The Tau empire is just too small right now to defeat the Imperium.

[The Emperor]

My evidence; the Enslaver plague wiped out the Ork "Brain Boyz". The Nids and Orks wiped out the Squats. Slaanesh and the encroaching Imperial Empire disected the Eldar Empire.

Sorry, but that's pretty weak, and amounts to "Well, there's been a Group X throughout 4ok history, and it got beaten up by a Group Y, therefore the Imperium will be beaten by the Tau because they're Group X and the Tau are Group Y". Why isn't the Imperium Group Y in this scenario? God knows they've wiped out other piddly little alien empires like the Tau, before. But really, the evidence amounts to "somebody killed somebody else", and that's pretty much it, and even THAT'S pretty weak when you get beyond face value.

For one, the Enslavers just killed the Brain Boys, not the Orks. Any Enslavers still around? None that anyone can see, but there're still powerful Ork empires here and there, even without Brain Boyz to oversee them. If we were to follow that pattern, then that would mean that the Tau would successfully kill the Imperium as a galactic empire, but in turn be destroyed and play no further role in history, while fragments of the Imperium still survived. Hardly a take-down when you go extinct in the process. That's more like a kamikaze attack then anything else.

The Squats were wiped out as an afterthought because their army was eliminated from the game. Given that Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Daemon Hunters, and Witch Hunters sales aren't all going to suddenly head for the dumpster, we can forget about the Imperial Armies being eliminated as playable forces. And even if Imperial sales suddenly revert to nil, it'll be another human empire that takes their place. We won't see a Golden Age of Tau Domination following the disappearance of the Imperium.

As for the Eldar, the Imperium doesn't exactly factor all that much in the Eldar Fall, so it doesn't exactly form a theme of "The new kid bumping off the old from his pedestal". Hell, it was the Eldar Fall that allowed the Great Crusade to take place, by clearing the warp storms around Earth. So the Eldar were already done for before the first Imperial Fleets set sail out of Earth for the Grand Crusade.

So yeah, your evidence is pretty weak. Nevermind that the only difference between the Tau and any number of other alien races scattered throughout the galaxy is that they have a Codex, and the other races don't. You may as well ask "Will the Tarellian Dogmen or Hrud bring down the Imperium?" The only difference between them and the Tau is that, once again, the Tau have a Codex. The Tarellian's and Hrud don't.

As to whether they'll bring them down, it's debateable if the Tau will even live to see another millennium, much less come to dominate the galaxy. Hell, it's debateable if the Imperium will live to see another millennium, which eliminates any chance of the Tau taking anyone down. Right now there're three major threats to the galaxy: Chaos, Tyranids, and Necrons. The Tau are NOWHERE NEAR the same league as those folks. Hell, they're not even in the same sport! They'll be lucky to even survive whatever onslaughts those three have planned. The only thing they have going for them is that they're so small, so those three might not notice them, or only register their existence in the slightest way.

So no, the odds of the Tau taking ANYONE down are so imperceptibly minute as to be laughable. The quesiton should be "Are the Tyranids going to consume the galaxy, or will the Chaos Gods do it first? Or will the Necrons dominate the galaxy before them?" That's the REAL question, because those three actually have a chance to wrest dominance of the galaxy away from the Imperium. The best the Tau can do is snatch a handful of worlds while the Imperium's in crisis mode. The Imperium loses more worlds everytime it farts. The recent gains by the Tau aren't all that meaningful to anyone but the Tau.

[salty]

@The Emperor: My evidence was weak, I know, but then it was also very rushed. Every major Empire ends eventually, and the Tau are evolving rapidly, expanding rapidly and seemingly have something of a penchant for defeating the Imperium (Damocles Crusade).

I wasn't talking about any time in the near future, but as a hypothetial "end of the Imperium" scenario. Personally I can picture the Tau being ascendent (eventually) in a similar fashion as the Imperium did.

Salty

[Adept]

Apart from the ever present xenos threat (I believe only the Necrons and the Tyranids really pose immediate potentially terminal threats) the only thing that will bring the Empire to it's knees will be it's own ponderous weight. The reason the Empire has lasted so long is becuase it plays it kinda fast and loose in terms of regulations and rules. Planetory governors have almost entirely free reign of their planets, so long as they meet their tithes, so the Imperium doesn't get bogged down in endless red tape and regulations.

Given the immense size of the Empire, and it's ability to mobilise simply mind boggling amounts of troops and military hardware, it stands a good chance in terms of a straight up punch on. Where it may well fall down is the removal of the 'head' so to speak. Enough power struggles at the higher levels of administration means that little things get forgotten. Outlying systems get ignored as power hungry politicians attempt to gain a strangle hold over their opponents, regulations get ignored, Imperial commanders become corrupted, and so on. Then, when the **** hits the fan, the Imperium can no longer function as a cohesive whole, and is forced to concede large numbers of systems in order to maintain it's hold on what it has.

Could the Tau defeat the Empire, in the long run? Not very likely. But they could well fill the void left by the Empire as it crumbles under it's own weight.

[The boyz]

Maybe, but not for a very long time.

The Tau empire is just too small right now to defeat the Imperium.

Yeah I agree the Tau just dont have the manpower to take on the whole of the Imperium and win.

[salty]

Could the Tau defeat the Empire, in the long run? Not very likely. But they could well fill the void left by the Empire as it crumbles under it's own weight.

When I said I could envisage the Tau being ascendent, I meant in a similar way to the way you describe here. The Imperium after all filled the void left by the crumbling Eldar Empire. With the Imperium beset on all sides and the Tau steadily advancing, I picture them being the race that finally defeats the Imperium

Salty

[Xisor]

It'd make conversations like this one hell of a lot easier if people didn't use 'The Empire' where they mean The Imperium of Man.

Sure it's 'effectively' an Empire, but for the sake of clarity, keep it at 'The Imperium', as the 'Empire' in 40k Terms is the Tau Empire(a misnomer if ever there was ). There 'was' an Eldar Empire, and there likely are many Ork empires, but they are not singular.

As for The Empire vs The Imperium. Yes, I'd say the tau *are* counter to the Imperium. They are counter to it, the Eldar Empire, the Dominion of the Old Ones, the Tyrannies of the C'tan, everything.

If ever there was a race that stood a chance of successfully ruling the Galaxy in a manner 'mostly' fair to everyone(as much as deservedly possible). Sure, they could cock it up as much as everyone else who has gone before, but I've got faith in the little blue beggars...

So yes, they are in my eyes, the counter to the Imperium.

Xisor

[Khaine's Messenger]

So, tehrefore, are the Tau, another fledgling Empire, going to bring down the Imperium?

I don't see how your conclusion follows from your premise, which is flawed in any event, because massive warp storms have generally been the downfall of galactic empires, not actual conflict; most races are dependant on the warp for travel and communications; the only exception to this is the necrons, and they went to sleep because no one else had comparable technology with which to sustain themselves and that harvesting prospects would look bleak as a result. You could point out the pattern that a race will be destroyed, rebuild, and then suffer a final debilitating blow that leaves it in a funk like the Craftworld Eldar (ie, "dying race" territory) and allows a new expansionistic race to take over. That pattern has played itself out twice (first to the Slann and then the Eldar), and the Imperium could be said to be in/past the rebuilding phase and well on their way to a nice little cataclysm that will clean house for the Next Big Thing. But active conflicts or competition between galactic powers are and have been traditionally rare, as there are few times in 40k history in which there are concurrent powerhouses; the War in Heaven is about the only instance of which we're aware of such a fantastic effort on the part of two great and unified galactic powers, and as I just said, that didn't exactly turn out well for any of the parties concerned.

On top of that, I see no reason to single out the Tau as the successor or heir to the Imperium's galactic dominance, as I see the Tau as a mere case study of a non-Imperial confederation/empire rather than a unique occurance. The Tau are no more counter to the Imperium than the Orks of Charadon that the Ultramarines war against on a constant basis.

Theoretically speaking, Xisor makes an interesting point of how the Tau are "counter" to the Imperium in ways other than simply being a successor empire in light of the Imperium running downhill towards its nadir, but I think that's a bit reaching.

[IceFire]

I remember hearing somewhere that the Tau barly regester in the warp, i also remember hearing that the warp is a reflection of real space and that chaos comes from a reflection of humans. (mostly)
From this i assume that The Imperium can never wipe out chaos, and vice versa, because if humans wiped out chaos, it would just appear again, reflecting human 'souls' in the warp. If chaos ever exterminated every single human then they would eventually die also as they would not have any souls to reflect.
What has this got to do with the Tau? well as they barley register in the warp i would imagine they have no "evil reflections", so when the Imperium does eventually cruble into dust and the last human dies there will be two fewer enemys to the Tau (assuming they can hang on that long) also there will be a hell of a lot of real estate for the Tau to claim, boosting their Empire.

I think it is also important to note that the Tau are known as a young race for a reason; they are only 6000 years old and the Tau Empire is already 2000 years old. Humans (as in me typing this and you reading this, not genetically engeneered super humans 38k years in the future) are already about 5000 years old, meaning that if we compare our race with the tau, we should have already formed an Empire and started colonizing other worlds one thousand years ago. This shows how advanced the Tau are, and if they dont have some terrable accident that causes them to lose faith in there technology then who knows what sort of stuff they could dream up?
I think that if the Tau can some how manage to survive for a couple more thousands years improving there technology at the same rate as they have been then they will become a more powerful Empire then the current Imperium one.

[Unforgiven]

well, like many of you have said, if they were to have the ability to overthrow the imperium, it is going to be a very long time. but consider the speed at which they have developed so far. (please correct me if i'm wrong) in just 6000 years they went from savage barberians to one of the most advanced races in 40k. I am not exactly very knowledgeable about the background of 40k armies but I remember reading something like that...

(sorry for my spelling)

[Kiro]

Yep, I'm pretty sure 'twas 6000 years. Why does everyone keep talking about Brainboyz and enslavers? There is no mention of them (the brainboyz) in Codex: Necrons! Unless you people pulled that from RT stuff...

[blitz589]

if any race wanted to they could just go and destroy the tau. there small and have nothing compared to the other races.

[Xisor]

Actually, thats a good point. Presumably the point intended by the original poster is that the Old Ones and the Brain Boyz were on and the same?

I don't think so, the Brain Boyz, IMO, were *part* of the Krork race, created by the old ones to exert control over the other 'krork subspecies'. If you want a conspiracy theory, I'd put it that the Brain Boyz played a similar roll to that of the Aun of the Tau...

Noting in arguments and proposals what is speculation and what is 'read from the actual fluff' also tends to help.

Xisor

EDIT:

Also note that what Blitz is saying there is completely unqualified. The Imperium *did* want to get rid of them. And failed miserably. I know it was a conditional failure, but these conditions *always* apply, you can't just ignore them. To put it lightly, small as the tau are, they are here to stay(as far as we can see...).

[Sephiroth]

if any race wanted to they could just go and destroy the tau. there small and have nothing compared to the other races.

And yet the Tau are still there. Curious. Does this mean the other races like having the Tau around?

[Master Fulgrim]

I dont think too, that the Tau could take the legacy of rule from the human Imperium. The imperium is just to big. It consists of milllions of worlds, which were terraformed and settled by humans in thousands of years. To copy this would cost the Tau several yearthousands too. And if i look at their current neighbors (Orks, Nids, a xenophobic Imperium), i dont think, that they will have this time.

Master Fulgrim

[Xisor]

How then did the Imperium take it from the Eldar? How did the Eldar take it from the Old Ones?

Irregardless, the Galaxy is no bigger than it used to be, if spacemen, space elves and psychich galactic-progenitor frogs can do it, then I see no problem with multi-species blue camels managing it.

Xisor

EDIT: Admitedly though, the Tau don't 'need' to Terraform those worlds. That said the Imperium of Man didn't take over the galaxy until a good 30,000 Years after it first set foot in space. I think the Tau *could* secure the Galaxy in a shorter time than that...

[Master Fulgrim]

Well, the emperor doesnt started his crusade to conquer new worlds, but started it ti unite mankind. Most of the important imperial worlds were settled lomg time before the fall of the eldar and the rise of Slaanesh. Even official Fluff indicates that: All primarches were found on nonimperial, human worlds. How could that happen? Because people settled there long time before. It was possible. because mankind and even eldar grew under quite better conditions than there are today. The politics between both races were friendly, or at least neutral. Old Rogue Trader-stuff indicates, that there was even trade between both races. Also the realms of the Orks were quite smaller, and warptravel wasnt an hard buisness as it is today. So Humanity could grow quite faster than today. But these conditions are long gone and the Tau are rising under quite more harder conditions with quite more enemies as men or eldar had.

[Xisor]

Likely every single Eldar world was a paradise world where the 'monkeigh' were left to get the barren wastelands and poisoned worlds and contest Ork held worlds etc.

Failing that, it's possible the Eldar 'fall' happened along time, longer than we thought. Eg the Eldar finally gave up on 'taking notice' of the Galaxy and gave in to complete selfsatisfying hedonism around the times less than M10! In this manner, mankind could have progressed unchecked so long as they didn't go for Eldar held worlds. Through the age of strife, Eldar were getting so reckless they were causing hellish warp storms.

Then it happened. Then the Eldar race was comparitively gone in an instant.

I doubt mankind 'ruled the galaxy' before then.

Xisor