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    Chapter Master Vaktathi's Avatar
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    Re: >hull points-epic fail GW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus81 View Post
    You "should" need smoke only once. I'm guessing you are using rapid fire range for those bolters. If they are that close then they are in threat range for being assaulted.
    Your tanks can get shot at on more than the one turn you pop smoke, and units have tons of deployment options these days be it Deep Strike, Outflank, Scout, Infiltrate, etc that can bypass cover.

    Not unlikely, but not unmanageable and not game breaking to the point of sky-falling vehicles are useless level.
    Not unlikely in the least, it's a scenario I've seen in 5th quite often where a unit hits the side with bolters, and in 6th it's very appealing for a drop pod unit that's just come in and may not have an infantry target close. The certainty with which the vehicle is killed, with at best a 5+ save, way too point-click. MC's work similarly, but can fight in CC and have significantly better saves, typically their problem is poor costing (e.g. Carnifex, 60pt insanity for Hive Tyrant wings, etc)

    Math and logic. I've seen very few anti-hull points based on any kind of reasonable thought process. That isn't to say i'm infallible, but a lot of what i'm seeing is just knee-jerking.
    Could you elaborate? I've been typing out my math and reasoning this entire thread, instead of just calling stuff knee jerking.

    They still all have tools. Tau don't need to deliver troops like other armies.
    They don't need to get troops to objectives like other armies? I'm really not getting What you are driving at here, and I *play* Tau.

    Skimmers can get you 30" in one go and have jink - for one point of armor less.
    Jink again is a mere 5+ save, and not all Skimmers are Fast, and when going Fast are still hit on 3's if something can manage to get to them (and with a charge range twice as long as last edition, and many armies able to fill the board to such extent that escape in this manner is difficult, that's an issue). Going fast is *far* less of a defense than it has ever been, still hit on 3+ in melee instead of a 6, 5+ cover instead of 4+.

    Its a trade off to be sure with its own risks. You proposed earlier bigger explosions on passengers. Don't you think that would make vehicles even LESS desirable than hull points?
    Depends, explosions don't happen all the time, and have a chance to do something to nearby enemy units as well (as opposed to taking a couple of piddly lasgun hits). The problem with explosions is that, aside from guardsmen, most stuff just didn't care. Making them more of a threat wouldn't destroy the utility of transports, but would make them a bit less of an issue, and would make exploding gun tanks a bit more interesting.

    People would focus on popping AV10 skimmers with glee.
    They don't already?

    Eggs in a basket. If your only strategy is to unload a bunch of guys on the other side of the table with rhinos then it might not go well. That's the point.
    Not quite getting how you're intending on using the eggs in a basket reference, but again, if the Rhino's aren't able to transport you successfully, what is their purpose?

    Assaulted vehicles are either in the right place because they themselves are delivering troops or they are in the wrong place because they weren't supported.
    Nevermind the fact that average charge distance has increased and it's maximum range has doubled, and short of physically blocking the path with something else or killing the assault unit (of which we have some absolutely dead hard assault units) they can often launch an assault into the enemy deployment zone by turn 2. Contrary to your statement, unless you mean "support" to be physically blocking the assault path, vehicles can get assaulted all the time and quite easily in this game without having made some terrible fatal error, and that in and of itself is fine, just not when killing it is a certainty when it happens.

    Its a 33% mitigation and its easier to have then you mightt hink with 25% cover and jink saves.
    Yes, it's easier to get, but still very situational, it's not something you can just assume is going to be there, especially if the attack isn't comng from the front.

    Expressing it as having it fail twice as often as it succeeds is irrelevant in a game of dice.
    I was unaware that probability was irrelevant in a game of dice.

    If your opponent wants to fire bolters through smoke then he has to consider the very real possibility of wasting a lot of shots without getting the desired result.
    Yes, but again, not something you can count on being there. It's highly situational.

    Anecdotal. The opponent may not have known how to use his army, a series of lucky rolls reduced his fighting power early on, which allowed you to focus others more quickly, and so on. It is inadmissible evidence to the analysis of hull points.
    Yes anecdotal, but in my experience through 4 years of 5th edition, not uncommon. Vehicles were not unkillable by any means, hell, a typical SW 15ML Long Fangs/9TL Lascannon RB list would on average kill ten or eleven AV12 tanks over the course of a game allowing for 50% casualties over the course on their part just from the heavy weapons. Tank survivability wasn't really the issue, they died just fine.

    The bigger issue was that infantry didn't have a reason not to take a transport, they didn't have any actions/abilities that a transport did not complement. Giving infantry more actions to do outside a transport that would aid them in their role or assist another unit would go a long way to solving that. Other games don't have the same issue, infantry usually can do something more than just move/shoot/assault, like create or clear obstacles, spot for big guns, dig in and make themselves immovable except by assault or overrun, etc.
    Last edited by Vaktathi; 08-07-2012 at 06:16.
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