Hypothetical LOTR AU: Saruman doesn't fall.

[RunepriestRidcully]

The basic idea is, I've been wondering how much of a difference and what key changes would you see if Saruman the white had not fallen, but rather stayed true? I really like ideas, both in fiction and on historical events, that guess at what may have been had something changed or been different, and was just wondering what would have happened in this case, the main difference being that Rohan would be in far better shape, and Gondor might not be so hobbit dependent to defeat Sauron.

[ForgottenLore]

Rohan being in better shape might be the obvious change, but I don't actually think it would be the most important.

In fact, I suspect the impact of Saruman not falling would be so great as to defy reasonable extrapolation.

If Saruman had remained "good" then at minimum Gandalf would not have been captured. Quite possibly he would have learned the 9 were abroad and been able to act on it faster, meaning Frodo would have had Gandalf to assist him in getting to Rivendel, possibly sooner than happened. The fellowship would have then set out earlier, which means Boromir would not have arrived in time for the council. They would have traveled south and passed the mountains through the gap of Rohan so, no Moria, no Gandalf being killed and coming back more powerful, no stop in Lorien so no cloaks, no glass jewel for Frodo. Less chance of the fellowship breaking so violently. Rohan would be much stronger and would go to help Gondor earlier. Saruman not using (or not having) the Palantir means Aragorn would not recieve it and so would not distract Sauron with it. If Gondor was stronger then Sauron would likely be more cautious so Mordor would likely be even harder to get into, but who knows what Gandalf actually had planned for how to get Frodo into Mordor.

And then there is the even more speculative issue of WHEN exactly Saruman became corrupted? There are implications that it was a LONG time ago. If he had never started down that path, would Gandalf's heart not have misgave him when talking about the ring with the council? Would they have identified the ring much earlier and it would have been Bilbo on the quest to destroy it?

[RunepriestRidcully]

Wow, had not quite thought it out that far :P Those are good points though, and for we know Gandalf's original plan may have been to sneak into Mordor' with Saruman's assistance, or even get the vastly better off Rohan and Gondor launching an assault on the black gate before Sauron has marshaled his forces.
To be honest that is the main thing that bothers me about Saruman's fall, it's never really described that well out side of a desire for power and dominion or nihilism of realizing/thinking Sauron was unbeatable (the latter was how it came across in the films) and with the time it's implicated to have been before the events of the fellowship, it's almost like he got corrupted as soon as he got to middle earth or very soon after.

[ForgottenLore]

Keep in mind that the wizards were in Middle Earth for somewhere around 2000 years. There is plenty of time for them to arrive, Saruman to spend 1000 years studying the arts of the enemy with noble intentions, then Sauron have take several centuries to slowly corrupt him, and still leave 500 years for him to have been evil and working against the white council in secret.

[RunepriestRidcully]

Guess so, it would be nicer if a bit more of a reason was given though.
Mind you, depending on how long he was currupted, if he didn't fall, Gondor could be in far better shape, Minas Ithil or osigilith may have not fallen or the line of kings could still rule in Gondor. When was the fall of Fornost? If the timing fits, it could have been interesting to have Saruman lead his order to save it and Arnor.

[jprp]

If he was true then the Men become irrelavent, he agrees with Gandalf when he FIRST wants to drive out the Necromancer, the whole white council and possibly the two Blue wizards smash the Necromancer so he is driven back to a weaker state again and needs at least hundreds more years to gather strength again, in the interim the 9 are reduced to an ineffectual level due to Saurons loss of power, the ring is discovered and the Istari/white council and a small elite group of elven lords escort the ring bearer to the coast where ULMO is summoned and takes the ring to Valinor where Aule unmakes it.

[RunepriestRidcully]

Would they have been able to summon Ulmo?

[ForgottenLore]

No, it is stated I the council of elrond that the Valar would never accept the ring. It was of middle earth and middle earth had to deal with it, not the west. Sending the istari to ME to oppose Sauron wax the most the Valar were willing to do, and the implication was that even that was bending the rules a bit.

[jprp]

Its not a case of summoning him as in summoning a demon, his presence ran through all the waters of the world (begs the question why he couldnt let them know that in was in the river before Gollum got it). So a Maiar would be able to commune with him if it had access to the sea or a river.

[jprp]

No, it is stated I the council of elrond that the Valar would never accept the ring. It was of middle earth and middle earth had to deal with it, not the west. Sending the istari to ME to oppose Sauron wax the most the Valar were willing to do, and the implication was that even that was bending the rules a bit.

I cant honestly remember who says that-if it was Elrond then he`s just an Elf so doesnt know what he`s talking about-if it was Gandalf then the comment still doesnt really hold water as the Istari were sent to intervene rather than the Valar launch an all out attack because of the damage to the world caused in the war of wrath, if Sauron and even the nine had been reduced to a low level of power as i stated above then there would be no one of any power to fight the powers if they came to middle earth to destroy the ring. So they could come to the ring or it could be taken to them or the council/Istari could take it to mount doom-who would be left to stop them?