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Thread: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

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    The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Hi all,

    I recently god in a discussion about the origin of the warhammer gods, and it was suggested that the gods of the Elves and Old World are actually the Old Ones that had vanished when the polar gates collapsed. Some lines in the Lizardmen armybook seem to hint at this. How was this achieved? We had no idea, but it could be that somehow the Old Ones acended to a higher plane of existence, 'merging' with some emotion or aspect in the Realm of Chaos that was closest to their personality.

    Though there is hardly any evidence to support this theory, but to me it seems like a reasonable idea.

    However, this would cast doubt on the origins of the Chaos Gods. Af far as I know, the lore portrayed them causing the destruction of the warp gates, but I also read somewhere that they gained consciousness as the raw emotion of the trauma of the collapse of the polar gates coalesced.

    Could it be that the Chaos Gods became sapient when four 'fallen' or 'dark' Old Ones merged with the raw emotion that was most representative of themselves? Like how a bloodlusted Old One merged with the emotion of raw hate to become Khorne. The four Chaos Gods are often called 'brothers'. Perhaps the Old Ones that formed them were actual brothers themselves.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by quantumcollider; 10-11-2014 at 13:17.
    The guards of the great citadel of Azyrheim hear thunder in the distance, even though the sky is clear. The sound suddenly gets louder as a great green tide crests a nearby hill.
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  2. #2
    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    This certainly wasn't the case in the original background – all gods owed their origins to the Realm of Chaos. The Old Ones (then Old Slann) were merely hyper-advanced mortals whose hubris got between them and an exit strategy.

    However, given the current changes in the setting, anything could be possible.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    I think the gods in fantasy are legitimately gods. Taal is as real as Kurnous is as real as Nurgle.
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    i ever saw the Chaos Gods as primordial gods of the Warhammer who became twisted when the Elves and the Dwarves evolved as a civilization and imagined more complex Gods and the primordial old ones being twisted to the current Chaos Gods. GW ever told the history from the Elves and the Dwarves point of view but we know that the Chaos Gods need the emotions and faith of the people to survive. Nurgle for example could have been the God of Nature in his origin and this is why he is now attacking Athel Loren and said to Taal that he is an imposter. The idea of the EoT is not to destroy the world completely, the idea of the EoT is to destroy the gods of the civilization and absorb (recover) their positive attributes.

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    Chapter Master baphomael's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urian1983 View Post
    i ever saw the Chaos Gods as primordial gods of the Warhammer who became twisted when the Elves and the Dwarves evolved as a civilization and imagined more complex Gods and the primordial old ones being twisted to the current Chaos Gods. GW ever told the history from the Elves and the Dwarves point of view but we know that the Chaos Gods need the emotions and faith of the people to survive. Nurgle for example could have been the God of Nature in his origin and this is why he is now attacking Athel Loren and said to Taal that he is an imposter. The idea of the EoT is not to destroy the world completely, the idea of the EoT is to destroy the gods of the civilization and absorb (recover) their positive attributes.

    The chaos gods dont need faith, they just need the emotion - that's part of why they are so scary... you dont need to worship them to fuel them.
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    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I think the gods in fantasy are legitimately gods. Taal is as real as Kurnous is as real as Nurgle.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't.

    I think the Elven gods have always existed, but they couldn't interact with the mortal world (or at least were far weaker) before the collapse of the gates.
    The Old Ones were already using magic (and very powerful magic at that) so the Realm of Chaos must have been present and accessible.
    Maybe it was largely shielded from the Warhammer World so the emotions of mortals had little effect on it.
    When the gates collapsed the influx of raw emotions created the big four and at the same time empowered all existing gods and daemons.

    All of this is just my theory of course...
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    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnizipal View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't.

    I think the Elven gods have always existed
    Depends on which era of the background. WFRP 1st edition was explicit in stating that the non-Chaos gods emerged in the aftermath of the fall of the Old Slann. Think of them as relatively benign warp entities, shaping themselves to the needs of the mortal races as their world is bathed in raw magic.

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    Librarian flota's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    By emotions and actions

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    Chapter Master Grimstonefire's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    I believe the fluff is that the chaos gods were already omnipresent whilst the old ones existed in the physical plane of existence. The collapse of the gates just connected them infinitely more to the warhammer world.

    So no, I don't think its possible that they are one and the same.
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  10. #10

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimstonefire View Post
    I believe the fluff is that the chaos gods were already omnipresent whilst the old ones existed in the physical plane of existence. The collapse of the gates just connected them infinitely more to the warhammer world.

    So no, I don't think its possible that they are one and the same.
    I always assumed the same. However, I read somewhere (i do not remember where. Lizardmen armybook maybe) a variation to the story of the collapse of the polar gates. Here it was stated that the collapse of the polar gates caused such a trauma in the psyche of the younger races, that it caused the birth of the chaos gods. If this is true, then it would be possible.

    It is, admittedly, only one reference among many.
    The guards of the great citadel of Azyrheim hear thunder in the distance, even though the sky is clear. The sound suddenly gets louder as a great green tide crests a nearby hill.
    "Orruks! Orruks! Orkus! Orkurs! Orsuk! Sukkor! Kusor!"
    "..."
    "Oi, Stuff dis!"
    "Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs!"

  11. #11

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    The OP obviously has not read the lore on Chaos Gods. Next.

  12. #12

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by theassassinsayshi View Post
    The OP obviously has not read the lore on Chaos Gods. Next.
    I beg your pardon? What makes you the expert on Chaos to make that statement? Or on my knowledge of the Lore?

    If you disagree, feel free to explain to me why. But spare me your snide remarks.
    The guards of the great citadel of Azyrheim hear thunder in the distance, even though the sky is clear. The sound suddenly gets louder as a great green tide crests a nearby hill.
    "Orruks! Orruks! Orkus! Orkurs! Orsuk! Sukkor! Kusor!"
    "..."
    "Oi, Stuff dis!"
    "Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs!"

  13. #13

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by quantumcollider View Post
    I beg your pardon? What makes you the expert on Chaos to make that statement? Or on my knowledge of the Lore?

    If you disagree, feel free to explain to me why. But spare me your snide remarks.
    Your statement is like someone saying, "What if, high elves and dark elves actually have no common ancestry", which is clearly not true as we know how the two kin are from Aenarion.
    The Chaos Gods have been stated multiple times in the lore to be manifestations of mortal emotions coalescing in the Realm of Chaos, eventually gaining sentience, and in turn influencing denizens of the physical world to generate more of those emotions to sustain them. The most concrete example is Slaanesh, who in both Warhammer franchises are said to be the youngest, and in 40k lore explicitly stated to be born into the world from the debauchery of the Eldar. This is like Warhammer Chaos 101. Also, if negative emotions hadn't coalesced into Chaos Gods when the gates collapsed, why would there be trauma? The Realm of Chaos is not inherently evil. It is like a mirror that reflects the emotions felt in the real world, thus why the Even Gods are good. And, at that time the Elven Gods had already existed, and they were every bit as ethereal and spiritual as the Chaos Gods, so I don't think they were the Old Ones. There is evidence on how the racial psyche of the elves formed their Elven Gods, so I don't think they are synonymous with the Old Ones.
    Last edited by theassassinsayshi; 10-11-2014 at 17:30.

  14. #14

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Ah, I found the reference I was looking for.

    For reasons long since lost to history, the Old One's great polar gate, the means by which they they traversed the stars, collapsed upon itself opening rifts into the raw ether of the Realm of Chaos. As the skies burned and and the earth quacked, the primal fears of a billion cowering souls took on unholy vigor. Borne forth from this mealstrom of emotions were the Dark Gods of Chaos and their demonic servant.
    Daemons of Chaos armybook, page 16

    This quote implies that the Chaos Gods were given form or consciousness when the polar gates collapsed, not being the cause of it. Though I agree with the other posters here that something was happening in the Realm of Chaos before the polar gates collapsed, we simply do not know what. You can argue that the Chaos Gods were already in excistence and caused the collapse of the polar gates (the Lizardmen armybook states the Old Ones may have been fighting something in the warp, though it is not stated outright it were the Gods of Chaos), but that viewpoint is isn't any more factual.

    At any rate, we know the Old Ones disappeared when the polar gates collapsed. Where did they go? Were they destroyed? Did they disappear because Chaos flooded the world? Unknown. For all we know, the polar gates collapsed because they left.

    That is the interpretation that intrigues me. If this is true, then where did they go?

    Take a look at this quote:

    To the younger races, the Old Ones are wholly unknown; Only the Elves maintain maintain some ancient myths of their creator gods.
    Lizardmen Armybook, page 26

    As we all know, Asuryan is the Elven creator God and Kurunous and Isha the parents of the Elven race. This seems to imply that the Elven gods are based on their memories of the Old Ones. But the Elven Gods (and presumably, the other non-Chaos Gods) are very real entities. It could be that these 'Gods' came into existence simply because mortals started to believe in them (The End Times: Nagash confirms that all gods need belief for their power), but nowhere is it disproved that a powerful entity can somehow merge with a particular aspect in the warp, giving it form, function and conscious thought, and effectively become a god. Heck, this was Nagash' initial goal. So it isn't that far-fetched to think that the Old Ones tried the same, ascending to godhood. Perhaps in an effort to bring order to the Realm of Chaos itself.

    If this is true, then something must have gone horribly wrong, as the Chaos Gods are destructive and.. well... chaotic, while the other gods seem to be much more ordered. Why did this happen? Perhaps the raw emotions that the Gods Gods represent were already too powerful in the Realm of Chaos to handle even for an Old One, and they went insane as they merged. Or those particular Old Ones were insane to begin with. Nevertheless, the Chaos gods did achieve sentience, so perhaps they got it half-right.

    Quote Originally Posted by theassassinsayshi View Post
    Your statement is like someone saying, "What if, high elves and dark elves actually have no common ancestry", which is clearly not true as we know how the two kin are from Aenarion.
    The Chaos Gods have been stated multiple times in the lore to be manifestations of mortal emotions coalescing in the Realm of Chaos, eventually gaining sentience, and in turn influencing denizens of the physical world to generate more of those emotions to sustain them. The most concrete example is Slaanesh, who in both Warhammer franchises are said to be the youngest, and in 40k lore explicitly stated to be born into the world from the debauchery of the Eldar. This is like Warhammer Chaos 101. Also, if negative emotions hadn't coalesced into Chaos Gods when the gates collapsed, why would there be trauma? The Realm of Chaos is not inherently evil. It is like a mirror that reflects the emotions felt in the real world, thus why the Even Gods are good. And, at that time the Elven Gods had already existed, and they were every bit as ethereal and spiritual as the Chaos Gods, so I don't think they were the Old Ones. There is evidence on how the racial psyche of the elves formed their Elven Gods, so I don't think they are synonymous with the Old Ones.
    As I said before, I hypothise that the Old Ones merged with the emotions already in the Realm of Chaos to give that raw emotion/power a form, consciousness, purpose and direction. And that this process somehow did not work out as planned, which resulted in the Chaos Gods. How does this contradict what you are saying?
    The guards of the great citadel of Azyrheim hear thunder in the distance, even though the sky is clear. The sound suddenly gets louder as a great green tide crests a nearby hill.
    "Orruks! Orruks! Orkus! Orkurs! Orsuk! Sukkor! Kusor!"
    "..."
    "Oi, Stuff dis!"
    "Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs!"

  15. #15

    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    What you're suggesting is to far-fetched to be proven. You're only providing what doesn't disprove of your theory, not what helps prove your theory. I highly suggest you check the definition of "bourne", as it is different from "born". As for the "unholy vigour" part, I see no relation to the sentience of the Chaos Gods. That quote from the Daemons Armybook proves nothing. Also, Gods don't exactly need belief. I am unsure of the benevolent Gods, but for the Chaos Gods the emotions from their respective domains feed them. So a Bretonnian knight giving in to battle-rage on the field would give Khorne power as well.
    Last edited by theassassinsayshi; 11-11-2014 at 15:17.

  16. #16
    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by theassassinsayshi View Post
    The OP obviously has not read the lore on Chaos Gods. Next.
    No call to be rude.

  17. #17
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by quantumcollider View Post
    I beg your pardon? What makes you the expert on Chaos to make that statement? Or on my knowledge of the Lore?

    If you disagree, feel free to explain to me why. But spare me your snide remarks.
    If the chaos gods predate the old ones, and they do, its not much of a theory.

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    Chaplain Maetco's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    I suggest anyone interested in the origin or the Chaos Gods to read the 7th edition DoC AB page 14. The basics said there fairly clearly. After knowing the basics it should be easier to do more comprehensive research.

    Edit. Just to be sure that my post can't be interepreted as being hostile I chose to edit it a bit.
    Last edited by Maetco; 11-11-2014 at 09:12.

  19. #19
    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    There's suddenly a lot of hostility in this thread.
    Please keep it civil...

    Arnizipal,

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  20. #20
    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
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    Re: The origin of the Chaos gods... Dark Old Ones?

    quantumcollider: if you want a grognard's interpretation: the Old Ones never really went away because the remnant slann are in fact the surviving Old Ones.

    This isn't fact but conjecture based on older background. Up until 5th edition, it was the Old Slann rather than the Old Ones (making the connection clearer), and in earlier editions their devolved descendants were a playable army in their own right.
    Last edited by RobC; 11-11-2014 at 17:25.

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