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Thread: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

  1. #1
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    Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Hey! I'm new! I finally decided to join Warseer after years of visiting after I realized the miniatures for Warhammer Fantasy were being discontinued. It made me sad enough to seek fellow haters of Age of Sigmar and lovers of the Fantasy Fluff (as the books were what initially got me into this world before a GW store was near enough for me to buy models/play regularly). So, if I commit any forum faux pas, please let me know!

    I noticed over on General Discussion that there are some unofficial 9th Edition rules being worked on by fans, but I was wondering if the body of lore-buff, fluff-loving Warseer residents had any interest in getting a workshop going for 9th Edition fluff: moving the plot forward in a way that doesn't involve a poorly written apocalypse followed by Sigmar creating Yggdrassil (essentially). I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).

    If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?

    Personally, I think incorporating parts of End Times would be useful. Not a big fan of the whole "incarnates" deal, but I can be convinced.

    Edit: Big thanks to Razios for providing some quotes from Josh Reynolds about an Alternate Timeline in which Chaos fails. Going to post three of the most important links here, but all of the links are in Razios' post below:



    To add to Reynold's points, I'd say don't have the cultures of Tilea, Estalia, and Araby get totally obliterated. Some hold outs survive against the Skaven onslaught, especially with the Skaven ultimately failing. But what I imagine would be interesting is expanding the strength of Bretonnia with an Errantry War into Estalia and Tilea, which can also fall nicely in line with some historical events in how the French came to dominante Basque (north/east) regions of Spain and Piedmont/Savoy (north-east region of Italy). Bretonnian noblemen going on crusade into the rat-infested warrens and declaring themselves the new kings/princes of ruined cities with Tilean and Estalian populations, much to the local's chagrin. I still prefer the idea of Nagash and Archaon taking each other out over the incarnates, but if people really don't like it, I can be convinced.

    Below, I'll be cataloguing some of the ideas that have been pitched:


    The Empire
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    Bretonnia:
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    Kislev:
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    Estalia:
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    Tilea:
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    The Lizardmen:
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    Vampire Counts:


    Skaven:


    Proposed Point of Divergence:


    That's two factions and one culture. I could use help from Dwarf, Orc, Vampire, Elf experts for other ideas.

    Map of the Old World, for anyone who needs a frame of reference: http://trueimages.ru/img/bb/9d/0d7d3...79f12d9b7d.jpg
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    Last edited by Presentdent; 12-08-2015 at 21:29.

  2. #2

    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Probably isn't in line with what you were thinking but there may still be a story to be told between the world gate collapse at the end of the End Times and the death of the Old World. Maybe it took 300 years for the collapse to engulf the world? The back page alluded it to being over between one day and a millenium. Maybe the initial collapse destroyed most of the Chaos legions giving time for the remnants of the End Times to regroup in new territories. Maybe ninth could live in the bleak post apocalyptic world? Maybe the story of Death, Destruction and Order attempting to avert or escape their fate and Chaos working to stop them.

    Every city like Mordheim? Could be cool

  3. #3
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

    Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

    Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

    Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

    And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
    First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

    Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

    Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

    Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

    And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.
    Oh, sorry. I wasn't clear. While I think the events of Nagash (mostly) are a good stepping stone for a very bleak post-war period that could lead to a lot of creativity and pushing the fluff forward, I was not saying that Nagash himself should survive. I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?

    Edit: I should note, something I prefer from Storm of Chaos is the manner of Valten's death. Far more tragic.

    And, just to get the ball rolling on Post-End Times Fluff:

    Estalia was suitably rocked by Skaven coming out of the ground all at once to attack every city, but Magritta holds out as one shining star amid the ravenous hordes, to which Estalians flock for safety. The soldiers of Myrmidia, her grand strategy and discipline beat into their skulls since birth, manage to hold out against the ratmen, even as a cataclysm begins to engulf the Old World. When the dust clears, Magritta is beaten and battered, but survives. The Goddess, Myrmidia, is haled as not only the savior of Magritta, but of all Estalia. Unfortunately, all is not sunshine and rainbows in Warhammer, and this results in a strict theocracy of the Goddess developing in Estalia, far more warlike and stern than her Lady of the Lake counterpart across the mountains. There's a first crack at it.
    Last edited by Presentdent; 07-08-2015 at 05:39.

  5. #5

    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    I like it.

  6. #6
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    For the Empire -- maybe someone could debate me on how much End Times destruction they'd like to see, or how many characters they'd like to see dead (including Elector Counts). I was thinking that it would be interesting to keep the destruction of Altdorf, but retain certain cities like Nuln and Middenheim.

    As for the Bretonnians, having them get squatted off-screen by Skaven just seems batshit. But the original war between Louen and Mordred caught my interest.

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).
    Probably...because they put themselve into a corner, I mean you cant advance the settting without coming with the damn apocalypse, its the event they have been bulding out from the first edition pretty much, the diferent between this and WH40K is that there a least have a working shot againts chaos, here? not so much, so ether chaos wins or you just disapoint everyone else.

    Also GW built a complex but quite fragil status quo that can break in anytime: If malekith dies them the whole dark elves who to hell, but at the same time they cant win ulthuan or the high elfs are screw, skaven have wipeout most of the faction...but they never do because plot reasons and so one

    I'd like to go back to Storm of Chaos as an example -- initially meant to be a chaos victory, Games Workshop's fan-input project bit them in the ass and they were forced to come up with ways to push the plot forward, after the End Times. Tragic events like Valten's assassination, despite his triumph at Middenheim, always stuck out to me as good ways to push forward, kill off heroes, and make room for new ones. If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?
    Except the only kill the new chararter(and even that as nurgle and slaanesh champion end doing nothing) and many feel cheat it(not for nothing people call the "breeze of chaos" for how the status quo remains) as some rulebooks and novels show...nothing change THAT much thanks to storm of chaos.

    Also Valten is dull as hell.

    Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad
    Indeed, it you dont take care of Nagash them he will be Sauron, just without the annoying hobbits

    I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?
    So...you will kill the biggest evils to the setting to continue? I dont want to be rude but have GW done that and nobody will forgive them about it, a least they bring him back for age of sigmar.

    But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch



    As you see he is been ask this...a lot actually, it make help you bulding your 9 edition

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    @Razios, you're a bit of a negative nancy! But thanks for all of the Ask-JoshReynolds posts. Very insightful. For the record, I agree that Valten is dull, but so long as he exists as Sigmar's reincarnation to some degree, the assassination after victory was far more poignant than random glaive attack.

    As for killing the biggest evils -- yes. Why not? Kill Karl Franz too, while you're at it. Open the door to something new. You know, advance the setting? Games Workshop may have written themselves into a corner with the apocalypse, but the best way out of that corner (without destroying the setting) would be a last minute averting of said apocalypse. Which is what I'm looking for here.

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razios View Post
    But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch
    Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

    To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horus38 View Post
    Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

    To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.
    I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.

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    Chapter Master Horus38's Avatar
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Presentdent View Post
    I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.
    I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
    http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=191514

    At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horus38 View Post
    I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
    http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=191514

    At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.
    @Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.

    Also, I'd like to note I've done a major edit on the first post. I'll be reproducing it here, in the latest post, for people coming back to check who don't notice the edit.


  13. #13

    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

    We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

    With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

    I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

    Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...
    Last edited by Cèsar de Quart; 07-08-2015 at 20:31.

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    Chapter Master Horus38's Avatar
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Presentdent View Post
    @Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.
    *laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

    One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horus38 View Post
    *laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

    One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).
    On that, we agree. The Nagash book was amazing. Even Glotkin was okay (though I could sense something was off). After that, it went completely off the rails.

  16. #16
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cèsar de Quart View Post
    Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

    We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

    With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

    I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

    Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...
    Finally! Someone who agrees that Karl Franz should die! Yes! I am totally with you on the natural causes angle, actually, presaging yet another "War of the Three Emperors" period. Boris Todbringer would still be around -- and the most natural successor, as he was Franz's only real rival during the election. As for Raukov, I agree he's badass, but if we are accepting parts of End Times, Ostland got absolutely obliterated. If we were to see him alive, he wouldn't have an army to push him claim. Totally agree on everything else you said on the Empire. Regarding Bretonnia -- why? Isn't Gilles firmly in control as the God-King?

    But a trifecta of Todbringer(and the wolf-lovers) vs. Volkmar vs. Balthasar Gelt? I could definitely see it. And it makes Sylvania even greater of a threat, as there's not only a weakened empire, but an empire in civil war, without a Magnus the Pious yet to save it.

    On Archaon, he's got to die and the Chaos Gods need to look for another Everchosen and lick their wounds. But how would you have him die in our Alternate Universe?

  17. #17
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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    I think the things to do to push the fluff forward in an non-AoS way is 2 things:

    1. Make some big and meaningful changes while at the same time...

    2. avoiding faction death.

    There are a few ways to do it, like the aformentioned succession war within the Empire, or even the Empire dismembered. One could also have Chaos actually successful in the scenario, mostly overrunning the Eastern province (which I cannot remember exactly...Ostland I'm guessing?) with perhaps a rump state left to avoid (sub)faction death and give those players a narrative reason to fight their battles. Similarly, after Estallia has fallen to the Skaven, large offensives are launched into both Bretonnia (with major areas conquered) and Tilea (perhaps that goes a bit worse for the Skaven), giving Bret players a new narrative reason for fighting battles.

    But the important thing is that after these events, the old status quo should not be re-established; rather a new status quo established that is different from before.

    Just IMHO.

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Just another update to the first post. Added some works-in-progress for The Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev. Let me know what you think!

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    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    A friend suggested going back to WFB's roots and introducing some Herohammer and "friendly" (as much as violent vikings can) Norscans to ally with the Empire, and Werebear heroes/special units.

    Like, some not-so-Chaos-worshiping Norscans move into the empty (albeit beast-infested) areas in the eastern part of the Empire. Hack down and **** up Beastmen left and right. And Empire refugees trying to reclaim their homes run into these northerners who have migrated into their old towns and farmlands.
    Last edited by Presentdent; 08-08-2015 at 17:08.

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    59

    Re: Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

    Update on the Norscan idea has been developed a little more. A warrior along the lines of Beowulf, who makes himself known by defeating some mighty chaos beast and saving/freeing/reclaiming a city in the east. Theoderic Gausser or Valmir von Raukov "appoint" him Elector-Count of one of the eastern provinces in hopes of giving themselves another ally in the form of a Norscan warlord at the head of a mighty, northern band. One suggestion was that the warlord turned from his Chaotic masters after seeing Archaon fall at the hands of Valten. The point being that he wasn't a Chosen, but a Norscan that was part of the marauding horde, following Archaon because he was the biggest, baddest warrior around, and once Archaon was put down by Valten, looking all Barbarian-God King with Ghal Maraz, he and his men have pledged himself to a near-Sigmarite cult venerating Valten and abandoning the Chaos Gods who failed to claim the realms of men.

    The Norscan returns to his home in the north to spread tale of the Man who defeated the Chosen of the Gods; someone truly worthy of reverence, and leads a migration of local townships willing to abandon their homes and the gods to carve out a home in Ostland. Landing near Salkalten, the survivors of Ostland have retreated to ruined city that was once the northern jewel of the eastern province, but are unwilling to treat with the Norscans, their ancestral enemies. Our Beowulf-Warlord, with his own Hrunting (Beowulf's runesword -- possibly a runefang taken from one of the fallen Elector-Counts of the End Times?), goes off to prove his worth by hunting a mighty Chaos Troll or Dragon Ogre that arrived in the wake of Archaon's invasion but never left (our very own Grendel). Upon returning with the creature's head, he earns the keep of himself and his people, and becomes leader of Salkalten's garrison, eventually carving out his own Earldom in Ostland, to later be noticed by one of the western, Imperial Elector-Counts.

    Could be that Gausser or Raukov is appointing local warlords in all of the "abandoned provinces," in looking for allies. Maybe a Kislevite boyar in Ostermark, and a halfling from the Moot in Stirland.
    Last edited by Presentdent; 08-08-2015 at 17:08.

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