Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

[Presentdent]

Hey! I'm new! I finally decided to join Warseer after years of visiting after I realized the miniatures for Warhammer Fantasy were being discontinued. It made me sad enough to seek fellow haters of Age of Sigmar and lovers of the Fantasy Fluff (as the books were what initially got me into this world before a GW store was near enough for me to buy models/play regularly). So, if I commit any forum faux pas, please let me know!

I noticed over on General Discussion that there are some unofficial 9th Edition rules being worked on by fans, but I was wondering if the body of lore-buff, fluff-loving Warseer residents had any interest in getting a workshop going for 9th Edition fluff: moving the plot forward in a way that doesn't involve a poorly written apocalypse followed by Sigmar creating Yggdrassil (essentially). I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).

If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?

Personally, I think incorporating parts of End Times would be useful. Not a big fan of the whole "incarnates" deal, but I can be convinced.

Edit: Big thanks to Razios for providing some quotes from Josh Reynolds about an Alternate Timeline in which Chaos fails. Going to post three of the most important links here, but all of the links are in Razios' post below:

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

TL: DR -
=Kislev obliterated, but Tzarina/IceQueen and loyalists remain in pockets of guerrilla resistance against Chaos
=Auric Bastion and most of the Empire (including Altdorf) get smoked. But outposts and fortresses throughout the battlescarred territory remain. Maybe some cities survive. It can recuperate.
=Bretonnia intact, but most of their knights and Louen died at Altdorf. Green Knight remains Myth-King for a newer, brighter, Francengland.
=Dwarfs are wounded but alive.
=Lizards relocate in their flying Pyramids to Nehekhara -- closer to the setting and revitalizing the region.
=Sylvania is now a force to be reckoned with and takes over as the Big Bad while Chaos recuperates
=Massive beastmen herds remain, roaming the Empire
=Skaven put on the backfoot after losing Pestilens. Managed to wipe out most of Tilea/Estalia/Araby, though
=Ulthuan sunk. Elves united under Malekith, but largely ****ed -- wars to reclaim Naggaroth. Tyrion becomes a roaming warrior trying to redeem himself
=Some Tomb Kings rebel against Nagash
=Orcs rumble back to the Badlands and remain Orcky (why change what's perfect?), some Ogres stick around; others don't.

To add to Reynold's points, I'd say don't have the cultures of Tilea, Estalia, and Araby get totally obliterated. Some hold outs survive against the Skaven onslaught, especially with the Skaven ultimately failing. But what I imagine would be interesting is expanding the strength of Bretonnia with an Errantry War into Estalia and Tilea, which can also fall nicely in line with some historical events in how the French came to dominante Basque (north/east) regions of Spain and Piedmont/Savoy (north-east region of Italy). Bretonnian noblemen going on crusade into the rat-infested warrens and declaring themselves the new kings/princes of ruined cities with Tilean and Estalian populations, much to the local's chagrin. I still prefer the idea of Nagash and Archaon taking each other out over the incarnates, but if people really don't like it, I can be convinced.

Below, I'll be cataloguing some of the ideas that have been pitched:


The Empire

Sigmar's Empire is in shambles after Archaon's nearly successful conquest of the world. Ostland, Ostermark, Talabecland, and Hochland are blighted wastes, infested with beastmen and fouler things. Pockets of defenders persist in isolated forts and outposts, surviving by strength of arms and a healthy helping of luck. Altdorf, Jewel of the Empire, is a broken ruin and Talabheim Crater remains a lake of pus. Refugees from the flood westward into a shattered nation.

In the north, Heinrich Todbringer, bastard son of Boris, has been legitimized by Ar-Ulric in the wake of the late count's mad and fatal quest to kill Khazrak One-Eye. Theoderic Gausser, Elector-Count of Nordland, has finally achieved his dream of walking into Marienburg, but it is a plague-ridden ruin. With Volkmar and Valten both dead, the Church of Sigmar seemed aimless, if not for the arrival of Luthor Huss, a heavy scarf around his neck, come as the last bastion of Sigmar's grace. He is elected Grand Theogonist, as most of Sigmar's clergy died at the Battle of Altdorf. With him, temporarily reigning from Carroburg, is Luitpold II, Prince of Reikland and son to the late Karl Franz. In the south, Nuln survives under the deft hand of Emmanuele von Liebewitz, and begins to recover with the help of Stirland and the Moot. Balthasar Gelt, while persona non grata in much of the Empire, remains in Liebewitz' favor. While the sons of great men (Heinrich Todbringer and Luitpold II) try to put themselves forward as candidates for Emperor, Gelt wonders why the Empire needs yet another mortal, suspicious man in the first place, and plots to establish a magocracy. The Empire is on the path towards civil war, between Sigmarite Reikland, the "pagan" rulers of the North, and Balthasar Gelt.

Bretonnia:

Unlike the Empire, Bretonnia's birthing pains into the new world after the Everchosen were not quite as painful. While hundreds of its knights and its king perished at the battle of Altdorf, and a civil war had rocked the country in the period immediately before the End Times, the realm is now ruled by the Green Knight, revealed as Gilles le Breton, legendary king of myth. The Skaven ultimately failed to destroy Bretonnia, though its southern provinces of Brionne and Carcassonne were overrun. Lileath's manipulations, revealed at Athel Loren, have been kept a secret from the populace by their new king. Better the famed knights of Bretonnia still have faith in the Lady. An Errantry War has been called, not only to burn out the rats from southern Bretonnia, but to reclaim Estalia and Tilea for humanity, as well. Many knights and lords will remain in their newly conquered, southern cities, establishing Bretonnian courts far from home and declaring independence outside of le Breton's sight, whether the surviving Tileans or Estalians like it or no.

Kislev:

Kislev, the frozen north, has been overrun by the forces of Chaos. Though Throgg's vision for an army of intelligent trolls never came to pass, Kurgans, Norscans, and the mutated beasts of chaos pick through the country's ruined cities and even revel in the Tzarina's palace at Kislev City. Only a small force of Kislevites remains within their native country, loyal to the Ice Queen, fighting as a guerrilla army in the wilderness, refusing to give up the fight against Chaos.

Estalia:

The unfortunate Estalians were largely wiped out by the Skaven hordes. The constant rivalries between their two greatest cities, Bilbali and Magritta, made for a weak state without an army to meet the ratkin. Most of their cities were overrun and their people butchered. Only Magritta, Pearl of the South, managed to hold strong. The Knights of the Blazing Sun and Myrmidia's Honor Guard held back the Skaven, collapsed their tunnels, and almost starved to death in their city, using all of the strategy and fortitude gifted to them by their vengeful goddess. When finally the siege broke and the Skaven retreated, Magritta was the last truly Estalian city standing. Since then, the Bretonnian Errantry War has carried northern knights into Estalia, and a Bretonnian lord fancies himself as Baron of Bilbali. Myrmidia's worship is ever more fervent, as the surviving Estalians see her as the only reason any of their countrymen yet live.

Tilea:

The merchant-princes of Tilea were unprepared for the Skaven invasion. Positioned so close to Skavenblight, Tobaro was annihilated by warp-lightning and overrun by the chittering masses. The perfidious principality of Pavona was similarly overtaken, its rivalry with Trantio ended in a sudden flood of stinking rodents. Trantio, too, fell. Even its mighty, Dwarven gates no match for the Skaven. It was only in Remas that the Skaven finally bloodied their collective nose. For once, in the face of such calamity, the republic and triumvirs of Remas were united, and Ricco's ragged band was finally welcomed into the city. Ricco led the defense as temporary dictator of Remas, defeating wave after wave of Skaven. The ratmen, realizing Remas was a hard nut to crack, continued further south. Unfortunately, the serene republic of Verezzo was not so lucky. Possessing a strong defensive position and mighty bastions, the city's defenders are eventually undone by the Ratman's Plague. Luccini and Sartosa, however, proved to be the end of the Skaven venture in Tilea. Once bitter enemies made a pact of Alliance, and as the skaven tried to breach the Leopard City's walls, the cannons of the Sartosan fleet unloaded into the army, and the ratkin were driven into the hills. While Luccini and Remas remain free, much of Tilea is still inundated in ratman filth.

The Lizardmen:

The Lizardmen did not flee the world in their temples. Rather, they only fled Lustria. Much to their chagrin, the Vampires, Orcs, and humans that had been squabbling over the Southlands, at times harassed by skinks, bore witness to the mighty, stone pyramids of the Lizardmen landing in the jungle, flattening trees and wildlife (and one unfortunate Orcish hunting party). From them spilled creatures that had not been seen in the Old World in an age: Sauri, Kroxigor, and even the surviving Slaan! The Lizardmen have found a new home in the jungles of the Southlands, joining the lonely Temple City of Zlatlan, and leaving cursed Lustria behind. They have set eyes northward, on Skaven-infested Araby and the sun-baked deserts of the Tomb Kings.

Vampire Counts:

Vlad and Isabella von Carstein did not perish with the End Times. The apocalypse averted, and the Vampire Lord now finds himself as the newly-minted Elector-Count of Sylvania. Vlad now joins the rush to become warden of a crumbling Empire, fighting for the title of Emperor he sought so long ago. He can only hope that none of the other Von Carsteins spoil his plans out of jealousy. Unfortunately, what might otherwise be a walk in the park is stymied by Balthasar Gelt, a new necromantic power operating in the south of the Empire. Nevermind the surviving threat of Arkhan the Black.

I'll add more for the Blood Dragons when a fan of the Blood Dragons gives me a suggestion! I know Abhorash survived.

Skaven:

Note: In the AU, the Skaven invasion was not nearly as successful and survivors remain in Tilea/Araby/Estalia.

Thanquol, unable to bear the sight of Screech Verminking and Archaon taking the glory for the end of the world; once more fulfilled his prophecy of doing more damage to his friends than his foes. It was ever the way of the Skaven to underestimate their underlings, and though Verminking sensed Thanquol's envy, he thought there was nothing to fear until it was too late. In a fit of petulant rage, Thanquol the Grey Prophet disintegrated the Verminlord after huffing what some clanrats suggested was a slave's weight in warpdust. Next, he jealously turned his eldritch power against the host of Chaos, blunting the southern prong of Archaon's invasion before retreating into the mountains with vengeful assassins of Clan Eshin on his tail. Some say he retreated all the way to the Mountains of Mourn. None of his slaves have thought to tell him this only brings him closer to the home of Clan Eshin.

Meanwhile, the Horned Rat smote Skavenblight with his mighty paw, condemning the Council of Thirteen for their failure to bring about the end of the world or control Thanquol. With Morrslieb's fall having killed much of Clan Pestilens, Skyre, Moulder, Eshin, and the Minor Clans are once again involved in civil war, scrabbling to the top of the ratman heap and debating where to place a new Council of Thirteen -- the plague-ridden depths of Karak Kadrin have never seemed so homey.

Proposed Point of Divergence:

One by one, the ancient hourglasses of Araby were shattered in the months leading up to what would come to be known as the End Times. Throughout Araby, the destruction of these magical engines was received with shock and terror, for long had they been relics of their culture. When the ratmen emerged to consume the world, they were the obvious culprits. The last Arabyan Hourglass was secreted away from the Spice Port aboard the Flaming Scimitar, flagship of the Golden Magus of Araby. As the last Arabyan cities fell, and the Skaven continued their rampage into the Empire, Clan Eshin and Clan Skyre assassins clambered aboard the Scimitar, intent on murdering the last of the great, Arabyan lords. As the ratmen clawed at the door of the sorcerer's treasure room, he unstopped his mystical urns. With the power of his enslaved djinni, the Golden Magus activated the last great hourglass of Araby. Time stopped. Gleaming, green eyes blinked through cracks in the mighty, oaken doors. An arc of warp-lightning had frozen, like a physical body, inches from the crystaline glass of the ancient artifact. And then... the world began turning back. Skaven threw themselves, backwards, off the sides of the ship, across the world, fighters pulled blades from their foes and armies marched away from each other. In Copher, the last of the defenders stood up once more, their wounds closing and their skaven killers retreating. And at Middenheim, the Herald of Sigmar stood, in climactic battle with the Everchosen. In the thousand universes the sorcerer's gambit created, Valten still fell, the Empire still died, and the world perished in violence and flame. But in one timeline, the Verminlord's glaive missed its mark and Ghal Maraz once again proved the bane of the Everchosen. The sailors of the Flaming Scimitar would later find their master dead, his urns empty, and the great hourglass glowing and hot to the touch, burning a hole through the floor of their ship. The Golden Magus and his ship were considered lost with all hands. In this timeline, the roll of the die had proved lucky and the world survived.

That's two factions and one culture. I could use help from Dwarf, Orc, Vampire, Elf experts for other ideas.

Map of the Old World, for anyone who needs a frame of reference: http://trueimages.ru/img/bb/9d/0d7d3...79f12d9b7d.jpg

[Greyshadow]

Probably isn't in line with what you were thinking but there may still be a story to be told between the world gate collapse at the end of the End Times and the death of the Old World. Maybe it took 300 years for the collapse to engulf the world? The back page alluded it to being over between one day and a millenium. Maybe the initial collapse destroyed most of the Chaos legions giving time for the remnants of the End Times to regroup in new territories. Maybe ninth could live in the bleak post apocalyptic world? Maybe the story of Death, Destruction and Order attempting to avert or escape their fate and Chaos working to stop them.

Every city like Mordheim? Could be cool

[AkatsukiLeader13]

First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.

[Presentdent]

First off, 8E disregarded the Storm of Chaos, moving the setting back before it. A rather good choice all things considering.

Second, the thing is you can't have Nagash return as he did without leading to the Incarnates as he tore loose Shyish, the Wind of Death, from the Vortex and bound it to Sylvania and later himself. The effects of that were pretty big on their own right. The Amethyst College exploded and most of its wizards were killed, the dead began to rise on their own, it killed, or at least greatly weakened, the Elf Goddess of the Dead, screwed around with at least the human underworld, weakened the Vortex and would enable Teclis to eventually free the other Winds to create the rest of the Incarnates.

Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad. In the End Times he was hamstrung by the fact that Teclis meddled in his plans, sacrificing his own niece to ensure the curse of their bloodline afflicted Nagash, forcing him to bind Shyish to Sylvania first and devour Usirian, the Nehekharan God of the Underworld, who might have also been Morr, and to send months in the Black Pyramid slowly binding Shyish to him. Before of course the Skaven showed up and destroyed a key component of the Black Pyramid, forcing him to abandon his plans and join the other Incarnates.

Even if you take away the rest of the End Times, Nagash is still an immensely powerful being and in control of Shyish and the human spirits of the dead. You can't really have a guy that power sitting around in Sylvania all day long. Eventually, even if his plans to become greater than the Chaos Gods is dashed, he's going to act.

And well... he's going to create a massive war, especially without any of the other Incarnates to oppose him. Like the Great War Against Chaos or the Sundering or the War of the Beard big. And given how he's tore out one of the Winds... well you have to do something with that. Either create the other seven Incarnates to counteract him or find a way to strip him of Shyish and restore it to the Vortex.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't clear. While I think the events of Nagash (mostly) are a good stepping stone for a very bleak post-war period that could lead to a lot of creativity and pushing the fluff forward, I was not saying that Nagash himself should survive. I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?

Edit: I should note, something I prefer from Storm of Chaos is the manner of Valten's death. Far more tragic.

And, just to get the ball rolling on Post-End Times Fluff:

Estalia was suitably rocked by Skaven coming out of the ground all at once to attack every city, but Magritta holds out as one shining star amid the ravenous hordes, to which Estalians flock for safety. The soldiers of Myrmidia, her grand strategy and discipline beat into their skulls since birth, manage to hold out against the ratmen, even as a cataclysm begins to engulf the Old World. When the dust clears, Magritta is beaten and battered, but survives. The Goddess, Myrmidia, is haled as not only the savior of Magritta, but of all Estalia. Unfortunately, all is not sunshine and rainbows in Warhammer, and this results in a strict theocracy of the Goddess developing in Estalia, far more warlike and stern than her Lady of the Lake counterpart across the mountains. There's a first crack at it.

[Greyshadow]

I like it.

[Presentdent]

For the Empire -- maybe someone could debate me on how much End Times destruction they'd like to see, or how many characters they'd like to see dead (including Elector Counts). I was thinking that it would be interesting to keep the destruction of Altdorf, but retain certain cities like Nuln and Middenheim.

As for the Bretonnians, having them get squatted off-screen by Skaven just seems batshit. But the original war between Louen and Mordred caught my interest.

[Razios]

I feel like there must be more people like me, chomping at the bit, wondering why Games Workshop didn't advance the story within the setting as opposed to killing the setting, so I wanted to open the floor to anyone with ideas (or have someone tell me that an unofficial 9th edition fluff is already being worked on).

Probably...because they put themselve into a corner, I mean you cant advance the settting without coming with the damn apocalypse, its the event they have been bulding out from the first edition pretty much, the diferent between this and WH40K is that there a least have a working shot againts chaos, here? not so much, so ether chaos wins or you just disapoint everyone else.

Also GW built a complex but quite fragil status quo that can break in anytime: If malekith dies them the whole dark elves who to hell, but at the same time they cant win ulthuan or the high elfs are screw, skaven have wipeout most of the faction...but they never do because plot reasons and so one

I'd like to go back to Storm of Chaos as an example -- initially meant to be a chaos victory, Games Workshop's fan-input project bit them in the ass and they were forced to come up with ways to push the plot forward, after the End Times. Tragic events like Valten's assassination, despite his triumph at Middenheim, always stuck out to me as good ways to push forward, kill off heroes, and make room for new ones. If you were to push the Warhammer Fantasy timeline forward between 10 and 30 years, what would you like to see in a 9th Edition?

Except the only kill the new chararter(and even that as nurgle and slaanesh champion end doing nothing) and many feel cheat it(not for nothing people call the "breeze of chaos" for how the status quo remains) as some rulebooks and novels show...nothing change THAT much thanks to storm of chaos.

Also Valten is dull as hell.

Bottom line, Nagash is the second greatest threat to the world, second only to Chaos. Keeping him in a 9E is a mistake as having someone that big around means that he should be doing something fitting of his status as the Number Two Big Bad

Indeed, it you dont take care of Nagash them he will be Sauron, just without the annoying hobbits

I was thinking we should contrive some way for big-bads like him and Archaon to have been killed off (though still wreaking **** tons of havoc prior to their deaths) before the beginning of 9th Edition. Perhaps they could even kill each other, the Everchosen's conquest only averted because a being as strong as Nagash was too arrogant and power-hungry to let anyone else conquer the world. And it ironically makes Nagash "the hero" in a funny way. Similar to how Grimgor bitch-slapped Archaon in Storm of Chaos, but not quite as silly and out-of-left-field. What'cha think?

So...you will kill the biggest evils to the setting to continue? I dont want to be rude but have GW done that and nobody will forgive them about it, a least they bring him back for age of sigmar.

But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch

-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/125448377055
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128548082655
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128547887327
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128547229919
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128545029343
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128396370399
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128396432351
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128422746079
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128422891487
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/128167084767
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127827703519
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127798237919
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127788804063
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127789056735
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127723024351
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
-http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

As you see he is been ask this...a lot actually, it make help you bulding your 9 edition

[Presentdent]

@Razios, you're a bit of a negative nancy! But thanks for all of the Ask-JoshReynolds posts. Very insightful. For the record, I agree that Valten is dull, but so long as he exists as Sigmar's reincarnation to some degree, the assassination after victory was far more poignant than random glaive attack.

As for killing the biggest evils -- yes. Why not? Kill Karl Franz too, while you're at it. Open the door to something new. You know, advance the setting? Games Workshop may have written themselves into a corner with the apocalypse, but the best way out of that corner (without destroying the setting) would be a last minute averting of said apocalypse. Which is what I'm looking for here.

[Horus38]

But for the sake of this thread I going to said josh reynold come with very intersting AU scenarios, here is a bunch

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.

[Presentdent]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

To the OP: the new setting allows for so much more room and creativity (IMHO) with the factions being able to flex and grow. Continuing the oldhammer fluff would result in more of the same of what we've come to expect. It's an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately I'm looking forward to the new setting to expand on everything.

I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.

[Horus38]

I can't stand the new fluff, to be honest. There are no countries. No people. No culture. It's just... group of warriors here. Group of mythical warriors there. Group of tree warriors there. And they fight for... no one really knows why. There's no territory to be gained. Just "realms" to conquer.

I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=191514

At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.

[Presentdent]

I hear you, but it's been growing on me. Here's a link someone on warseer posted, a guy from Heresy Online has compiled/written out the background entries from the new book. For me it helped to draw a clearer picture of what happened and order the timeline:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=191514

At this point I'd just like to see more of... everything! More locations, more history, more match ups, etc.

@Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.

Also, I'd like to note I've done a major edit on the first post. I'll be reproducing it here, in the latest post, for people coming back to check who don't notice the edit.

Edit: Big thanks to Razios for providing some quotes from Josh Reynolds about an Alternate Timeline in which Chaos fails. Going to post three of the most important links here, but all of the links are in Razios' post below:

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127676550367
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127696649183
http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answer/127682898399

TLR -
=Kislev obliterated, but Tzarina/IceQueen and loyalists remain in pockets of guerrilla resistance against Chaos
=Auric Bastion and most of the Empire (including Altdorf) get smoked. But outposts and fortresses throughout the battlescarred territory remain. Maybe some cities survive. It can recuperate.
=Bretonnia intact, but most of their knights and Louen died at Altdorf. Green Knight remains Myth-King for a newer, brighter, Francengland.
=Dwarfs are wounded but alive.
=Lizards relocate in their flying Pyramids to Nehekhara -- closer to the setting and revitalizing the region.
=Sylvania is now a force to be reckoned with and takes over as the Big Bad while Chaos recuperates
=Massive beastmen herds remain, roaming the Empire
=Skaven put on the backfoot after losing Pestilens. Managed to wipe out most of Tilea/Estalia/Araby, though
=Ulthuan sunk. Elves united under Malekith, but largely ****ed -- wars to reclaim Naggaroth. Tyrion becomes a roaming warrior trying to redeem himself
=Some Tomb Kings rebel against Nagash
=Orcs rumble back to the Badlands and remain Orcky (why change what's perfect?), some Ogres stick around; others don't.

To add to Reynold's points, I'd say don't have the cultures of Tilea, Estalia, and Araby get totally obliterated. Some hold outs survive against the Skaven onslaught, especially with the Skaven ultimately failing. But what I imagine would be interesting is expanding the strength of Bretonnia with an Errantry War into Estalia and Tilea, which can also fall nicely in line with some historical events in how the French came to dominante Basque (north/east) regions of Spain and Piedmont/Savoy (north-east region of Italy). Bretonnian noblemen going on crusade into the rat-infested warrens and declaring themselves the new kings/princes of ruined cities with Tilean and Estalian populations, much to the local's chagrin.

I still prefer the idea of Nagash and Archaon taking each other out over the incarnates, but if people really don't like it, I can be convinced.

[Cèsar de Quart]

Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...

[Horus38]

@Horus38, I'm sorry man. It's just... silly, to me. All of the gods walking among men. Not to mention the Sigmarines.

*laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).

[Presentdent]

*laughs* No worries! It's VERY different then traditional warhammer and I'm still feeling it out overall.

One high point in background development for me (over the last 15 years of following the game and being a lore junkie) was the Nagash End Times book. The period when only that book was out just completely revitalized the setting for me and I almost feel like they should've stopped right there. It added all this momentum, but didn't actually destroy/change anything irreparably (except maybe TK's).

On that, we agree. The Nagash book was amazing. Even Glotkin was okay (though I could sense something was off). After that, it went completely off the rails.

[Presentdent]

Kill Karl Franz off. Kill him off. Make him die against Archaon, his death stopping the tides of Chaos. Enough with this "best statesman in history since Sigmar" thing. He had his run, he saved us all, now he's dead. Better even, make him die of natural causes; without an heir or a closest of kin to be a suitable next Emperor, **** will go down south fast. Remember when they brought Volkmar back and made it seem like the Empire would go through a religious civil war?

We can also, this way, see nicer and newer minis for Boris Todbringer or Valmir von Raukov, two of the most kickass and least attended to Elector Counts in the Empire. We can make them bigger and better because each of the new Three (or Four) Emperors have their own reason to become Emperor. To protect the Empire, to make it wealthier and prepare against the next tide, to unite all the Old World under a new regimer, or maybe to make the Empire a magocracy (is that the right word?) because no better defense against Chaos than Chaos itself. Gelt Emperor? His golden pointy face would look nice indeed on the dimes.

With Karl Franz dead and Archaon disgraced, we can have a less apocalyptic (less, not devoid of it) scenario where the Empire is divided again, Bretonnia goes through some "La Morte d'Artur" crisis, Estalia is mostly overrun by Skavens (I like the idea), and Tilea is finally coming out of their geographic closet and attacking their neighbors, including Solland and Wissenland.

I'd love to see Borgio besieging Nuln. Or a model for countess Emmanuel von Liebowitz. Or new Imperial goddamn knights, we've been waiting for 20 years!

Anyway, they could have worked with it in some way, in some "the world's at the brink of destruction but we can avoid it with magical shenanigans" way. Teclis, Gelt, Alarielle and all the other Avengers could have stopped it while Karl Franz became Sigmar reborn and killed Archaon, or maybe Archaon was trying to kill Chaos itself, I don't know. I'd like Archaon (or his buddie Abaddon) to be more than just your everyday superbad villain, but hey, this is a toy industry after all...

Finally! Someone who agrees that Karl Franz should die! Yes! I am totally with you on the natural causes angle, actually, presaging yet another "War of the Three Emperors" period. Boris Todbringer would still be around -- and the most natural successor, as he was Franz's only real rival during the election. As for Raukov, I agree he's badass, but if we are accepting parts of End Times, Ostland got absolutely obliterated. If we were to see him alive, he wouldn't have an army to push him claim. Totally agree on everything else you said on the Empire. Regarding Bretonnia -- why? Isn't Gilles firmly in control as the God-King?

But a trifecta of Todbringer(and the wolf-lovers) vs. Volkmar vs. Balthasar Gelt? I could definitely see it. And it makes Sylvania even greater of a threat, as there's not only a weakened empire, but an empire in civil war, without a Magnus the Pious yet to save it.

On Archaon, he's got to die and the Chaos Gods need to look for another Everchosen and lick their wounds. But how would you have him die in our Alternate Universe?

[Lars Porsenna]

I think the things to do to push the fluff forward in an non-AoS way is 2 things:

1. Make some big and meaningful changes while at the same time...

2. avoiding faction death.

There are a few ways to do it, like the aformentioned succession war within the Empire, or even the Empire dismembered. One could also have Chaos actually successful in the scenario, mostly overrunning the Eastern province (which I cannot remember exactly...Ostland I'm guessing?) with perhaps a rump state left to avoid (sub)faction death and give those players a narrative reason to fight their battles. Similarly, after Estallia has fallen to the Skaven, large offensives are launched into both Bretonnia (with major areas conquered) and Tilea (perhaps that goes a bit worse for the Skaven), giving Bret players a new narrative reason for fighting battles.

But the important thing is that after these events, the old status quo should not be re-established; rather a new status quo established that is different from before.

Just IMHO.

Damon.

[Presentdent]

Just another update to the first post. Added some works-in-progress for The Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev. Let me know what you think!

[Presentdent]

A friend suggested going back to WFB's roots and introducing some Herohammer and "friendly" (as much as violent vikings can) Norscans to ally with the Empire, and Werebear heroes/special units.

Like, some not-so-Chaos-worshiping Norscans move into the empty (albeit beast-infested) areas in the eastern part of the Empire. Hack down and **** up Beastmen left and right. And Empire refugees trying to reclaim their homes run into these northerners who have migrated into their old towns and farmlands.

[Presentdent]

Update on the Norscan idea has been developed a little more. A warrior along the lines of Beowulf, who makes himself known by defeating some mighty chaos beast and saving/freeing/reclaiming a city in the east. Theoderic Gausser or Valmir von Raukov "appoint" him Elector-Count of one of the eastern provinces in hopes of giving themselves another ally in the form of a Norscan warlord at the head of a mighty, northern band. One suggestion was that the warlord turned from his Chaotic masters after seeing Archaon fall at the hands of Valten. The point being that he wasn't a Chosen, but a Norscan that was part of the marauding horde, following Archaon because he was the biggest, baddest warrior around, and once Archaon was put down by Valten, looking all Barbarian-God King with Ghal Maraz, he and his men have pledged himself to a near-Sigmarite cult venerating Valten and abandoning the Chaos Gods who failed to claim the realms of men.

The Norscan returns to his home in the north to spread tale of the Man who defeated the Chosen of the Gods; someone truly worthy of reverence, and leads a migration of local townships willing to abandon their homes and the gods to carve out a home in Ostland. Landing near Salkalten, the survivors of Ostland have retreated to ruined city that was once the northern jewel of the eastern province, but are unwilling to treat with the Norscans, their ancestral enemies. Our Beowulf-Warlord, with his own Hrunting (Beowulf's runesword -- possibly a runefang taken from one of the fallen Elector-Counts of the End Times?), goes off to prove his worth by hunting a mighty Chaos Troll or Dragon Ogre that arrived in the wake of Archaon's invasion but never left (our very own Grendel). Upon returning with the creature's head, he earns the keep of himself and his people, and becomes leader of Salkalten's garrison, eventually carving out his own Earldom in Ostland, to later be noticed by one of the western, Imperial Elector-Counts.

Could be that Gausser or Raukov is appointing local warlords in all of the "abandoned provinces," in looking for allies. Maybe a Kislevite boyar in Ostermark, and a halfling from the Moot in Stirland.