Workshop Unofficial 9th Edition Fluff?

[Kotrag]

Update from /tg/. The Norscan idea has been developed a little more. A warrior along the lines of Beowulf, who makes himself known by defeating some mighty chaos beast and saving/freeing/reclaiming a city in the east. Theoderic Gausser or Valmir von Raukov "appoint" him Elector-Count of one of the eastern provinces in hopes of giving themselves another ally in the form of a Norscan warlord at the head of a mighty, northern band. One suggestion was that the warlord turned from his Chaotic masters after seeing Archaon fall at the hands of Valten. The point being that he wasn't a Chosen, but a Norscan that was part of the marauding horde, following Archaon because he was the biggest, baddest warrior around, and once Archaon was put down by Valten, looking all Barbarian-God King with Ghal Maraz, he and his men have pledged himself to a near-Sigmarite cult venerating Valten and abandoning the Chaos Gods who failed to claim the realms of men.

The Norscan returns to his home in the north to spread tale of the Man who defeated the Chosen of the Gods; someone truly worthy of reverence, and leads a migration of local townships willing to abandon their homes and the gods to carve out a home in Ostland. Landing near Salkalten, the survivors of Ostland have retreated to ruined city that was once the northern jewel of the eastern province, but are unwilling to treat with the Norscans, their ancestral enemies. Our Beowulf-Warlord, with his own Hrunting (Beowulf's runesword -- possibly a runefang taken from one of the fallen Elector-Counts of the End Times?), goes off to prove his worth by hunting a mighty Chaos Troll or Dragon Ogre that arrived in the wake of Archaon's invasion but never left (our very own Grendel). Upon returning with the creature's head, he earns the keep of himself and his people, and becomes leader of Salkalten's garrison, eventually carving out his own Earldom in Ostland, to later be noticed by one of the western, Imperial Elector-Counts.

Could be that Gausser or Raukov is appointing local warlords in all of the "abandoned provinces," in looking for allies. Maybe a Kislevite boyar in Ostermark, and a halfling from the Moot in Stirland.

An awful idea. I will have no part in any 9th edition where this travesty is canon.

[Makiwara]

That's two factions and one culture. I could use help from Dwarf, Orc, Vampire, Elf experts for other ideas.

Map of the Old World, for anyone who needs a frame of reference: http://trueimages.ru/img/bb/9d/0d7d3...79f12d9b7d.jpg

By no means an expert, but if I were to imagine an AU post End Times elf timeline, it would go as follows.

Malekith and Alarielle hold separate courts in Athel Loren in the old fashion of Ulthuan with most of the surviving remnants of the elves. However, Malekith makes claim over much of the old lands of Elthin Arvan that he first settled before the Sundering and is preparing to wage war to secure those cities and arable lands for elvenkind, bringing elves into conflict with Bretonnia as elves force humans from their farms and homes. His court contains much of the more pro-war elven elite class from the Druchii and Asur factions. Imrik is seen as the heir to Malekith, but true to Caledorian fashion broods in his keep in the Grey Mountains above Athel Loren while dragons soar overhead. Meanwhile Tyrion and Teclis have gone into exile and are slowly attempting to gather together those Asur in far flung places to form an army to depose the Eternity King; Asarnil and Aenur join their cause.

An expedition is launched, against the orders of King and Queen, by opportunistic elves, perhaps Lokhir Fellheart and his band among them, to retake Naggaroth, the force is harried by Chaos forces all the way to Har Ganeth where they find a solitary Druchii lord slumbering in a lake of blood within the Temple of Khaine; the Warpsword clutched to his chest and loyal Cold One by his side. He is proclaimed the Scourge of Khaine and King of Druchii.

Meanwhile among the former Asrai a prophet of Loec, and son of Naieth, travels with his troupe of wardancers proclaiming dire times and the threat of Chaos returning.
The Wild Hunt grows restless and beneath the roots of the Oak of Ages the forgotten King of the Woods stirs again from his slumber.

[Presentdent]

An awful idea. I will have no part in any 9th edition where this travesty is canon.

Thats why this is a workshop and I haven't added it to the main post yet. Lol.

however, a less involved version of Theoderic Gausser elevating local warlords to try and establish his claim on the Empire -- what do you say to that?

and @Makiwara, that's great! Finally someone with elven knowledge, though I wonder why Teclis would want to depose Malekith, given that he schemed to get him there. I would think Teclis would just retire from the world while Tyrion becomes a wandering Dog of War, trying to redeem himself for his actions during the End Times

[AkatsukiLeader13]

By no means an expert, but if I were to imagine an AU post End Times elf timeline, it would go as follows.

Malekith and Alarielle hold separate courts in Athel Loren in the old fashion of Ulthuan with most of the surviving remnants of the elves. However, Malekith makes claim over much of the old lands of Elthin Arvan that he first settled before the Sundering and is preparing to wage war to secure those cities and arable lands for elvenkind, bringing elves into conflict with Bretonnia as elves force humans from their farms and homes. His court contains much of the more pro-war elven elite class from the Druchii and Asur factions. Imrik is seen as the heir to Malekith, but true to Caledorian fashion broods in his keep in the Grey Mountains above Athel Loren while dragons soar overhead. Meanwhile Tyrion and Teclis have gone into exile and are slowly attempting to gather together those Asur in far flung places to form an army to depose the Eternity King; Asarnil and Aenur join their cause.

An expedition is launched, against the orders of King and Queen, by opportunistic elves, perhaps Lokhir Fellheart and his band among them, to retake Naggaroth, the force is harried by Chaos forces all the way to Har Ganeth where they find a solitary Druchii lord slumbering in a lake of blood within the Temple of Khaine; the Warpsword clutched to his chest and loyal Cold One by his side. He is proclaimed the Scourge of Khaine and King of Druchii.

Meanwhile among the former Asrai a prophet of Loec, and son of Naieth, travels with his troupe of wardancers proclaiming dire times and the threat of Chaos returning.
The Wild Hunt grows restless and beneath the roots of the Oak of Ages the forgotten King of the Woods stirs again from his slumber.

Honestly I disagree with the Tyrion and Teclis part, everything else is fine. Teclis put Malekith on the Throne and helped kept him there. He knows that while Malekith isn't necessarily the King people want, he's the King chosen by Asuryan. And he's seen, and helped, Malekith slowly change. He's seen him reluctently learn to compromise and to rule with more than just fear, threats, intimidation and violence. Hell he even exiled Helleborn and her murderous cult of ******** once their excesses on the battlefield were becoming too much.

Plus both King and Queen have the last portion of Asuryan's and Isha's power within them respectively. Plus Lileath, the last of the Elf Pantheon who also wed them, recrowned Malekith the Eternity King, decreeing that he would 'rule alongside his Everqueen for all the turnings of the world yet to come.' Even if its total BS, that public decree from the last Elf Goddess is going to make many reluctant to take up arms against either Elf royal.

It doesn't really make sense for Teclis to pull this 180 and want Malekith gone, especially since it was him who pull Malekith on the throne and it would sunder their race again after becoming united for the first time in six thousand years.

To me there's only really two options for what Teclis would do after those events:

A) He remains within the Elf Courts, aiding in keeping his people together and keeping Malekith from falling into old habits, which as Archaon and the end of Khaine revealed isn't going to happen. Malekith has changed too much to become the ruthless tyrant he was. He's still an unpleasant ******* of course. Some things never change.

B) Josh Reynold's thoughts on the matter, with Teclis and his brother wandering the world leading whatever aid they can to the forces against Chaos and Nagash.

With Tyrion, he's got too much guilt with his actions during Khaine to stay with his people, much less plot against Malekith. Whether with Teclis or alone, he's going to wander the world, trying to atone for all the pain and suffering he caused.

[Presentdent]

Honestly I disagree with the Tyrion and Teclis part, everything else is fine. Teclis put Malekith on the Throne and helped kept him there. He knows that while Malekith isn't necessarily the King people want, he's the King chosen by Asuryan. And he's seen, and helped, Malekith slowly change. He's seen him reluctently learn to compromise and to rule with more than just fear, threats, intimidation and violence. Hell he even exiled Helleborn and her murderous cult of ******** once their excesses on the battlefield were becoming too much.

Plus both King and Queen have the last portion of Asuryan's and Isha's power within them respectively. Plus Lileath, the last of the Elf Pantheon who also wed them, recrowned Malekith the Eternity King, decreeing that he would 'rule alongside his Everqueen for all the turnings of the world yet to come.' Even if its total BS, that public decree from the last Elf Goddess is going to make many reluctant to take up arms against either Elf royal.

It doesn't really make sense for Teclis to pull this 180 and want Malekith gone, especially since it was him who pull Malekith on the throne and it would sunder their race again after becoming united for the first time in six thousand years.

To me there's only really two options for what Teclis would do after those events:

A) He remains within the Elf Courts, aiding in keeping his people together and keeping Malekith from falling into old habits, which as Archaon and the end of Khaine revealed isn't going to happen. Malekith has changed too much to become the ruthless tyrant he was. He's still an unpleasant ******* of course. Some things never change.

B) Josh Reynold's thoughts on the matter, with Teclis and his brother wandering the world leading whatever aid they can to the forces against Chaos and Nagash.

With Tyrion, he's got too much guilt with his actions during Khaine to stay with his people, much less plot against Malekith. Whether with Teclis or alone, he's going to wander the world, trying to atone for all the pain and suffering he caused.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

One person suggested the elves trying to reclaim some of their old colonies -- but I don't know whether their populations have been too depleted to even leave Athel Loren, or if they'd go back to Naggaroth.

In addition -- I'd still like some input on the Norscan warlord getting converted to a psuedo Sigmarite, along the lines of Rollo, the viking who established Normandy, and being put in power in Ostland by Theoderic Gausser trying to shore up his claim on the throne.

[Kotrag]

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Over on /tg/, one person suggested the elves trying to reclaim some of their old colonies -- but I don't know whether their populations have been too depleted to even leave Athel Loren, or if they'd go back to Naggaroth.

In addition -- I'd still like some input on the Norscan warlord getting converted to a psuedo Sigmarite, along the lines of Rollo, the viking who established Normandy, and being put in power in Ostland by Theoderic Gausser trying to shore up his claim on the throne.

If you want to use Hrolfr Gangr as an example, he was essentially bribed with land and titles in order to dissuade him from launching any more attacks against the Franks. He had attempted to sack Paris in 885 AD in concert with two other warlords.

Any Norscan who gains lands in the Empire would most likely do so as a conqueror - perhaps of the northern provinces where Imperial control is likely shattered. I had an idea where the Norse would try to reclaim their old dominions of Nordland as a side-effect of being in the vanguard of Archaon's assault, thus establishing the Earldom of Nordland.

I also doubt that any Elector Count would be quick to grant any Northmen lands in their provinces. Considering, you know, that the Norse tribes are principally the guys who wrecked them in the first place.

Also, no Norscan would ever, and I mean EVER, convert to the worship of southern gods. The most salient aspect of their characterisation is that the Norse think that the southern gods are weaklings compared to the Dark gods. And that the Norscans are so fanatical because they are constantly reminded of their gods' existence and power due to their living in the North. Factor in that most Norscans despise Sigmar for his part in driving them to Norsca in the first place, and well...

[Presentdent]

If you want to use Hrolfr Gangr as an example, he was essentially bribed with land and titles in order to dissuade him from launching any more attacks against the Franks. He had attempted to sack Paris in 885 AD in concert with two other warlords.

Any Norscan who gains lands in the Empire would most likely do so as a conqueror - perhaps of the northern provinces where Imperial control is likely shattered. I had an idea where the Norse would try to reclaim their old dominions of Nordland as a side-effect of being in the vanguard of Archaon's assault, thus establishing the Earldom of Nordland.

I also doubt that any Elector Count would be quick to grant any Northmen lands in their provinces. Considering, you know, that the Norse tribes are principally the guys who wrecked them in the first place.

Also, no Norscan would ever, and I mean EVER, convert to the worship of southern gods. The most salient aspect of their characterisation is that the Norse think that the southern gods are weaklings compared to the Dark gods. And that the Norscans are so fanatical because they are constantly reminded of their gods' existence and power due to their living in the North. Factor in that most Norscans despise Sigmar for his part in driving them to Norsca in the first place, and well...

I like it, but the Chaos Invasion came from the east, through the Auric Bastion, as opposed to from the North. Western Nordland would still be very much intact. While I prefer "Nordland" for a Norse warlord's earldom, northern Ostland actually fits a bit more, given Ostland/Ostermark's annihilation. And thanks for coming back and being a bit more civil.

Regarding the Elector-Count status, I think it would be similar to Rollo, but rather than trying to buy him off from further attack, Theoderic is looking for any allies to help him become Emperor and so is even willing to give a Norscan status. After all, he's dealing with the Sigmarite Church, Balthasar Gelt, possibly Valmir von Raukov (if I figure a nice way to include him) and Vlad von Carstein.

Regarding the gods... Well, Norscans think their Dark Gods are stronger, but if a Norscan were to witness the champion of his gods get thrown down by the champion of the southern god, Sigmar, I think that is reason enough to reconsider his position, as it seems clear the Southern God was the stronger. Nevermind the fact that Valten looked like a Barbarian Warrior-King anyway.

[Kotrag]

I like it, but the Chaos Invasion came from the east, through the Auric Bastion, as opposed to from the North. Western Nordland would still be very much intact. While I prefer "Nordland" for a Norse warlord's earldom, northern Ostland actually fits a bit more, given Ostland/Ostermark's annihilation. And thanks for coming back and being a bit more civil.

Regarding the Elector-Count status, I think it would be similar to Rollo, but rather than trying to buy him off from further attack, Theoderic is looking for any allies to help him become Emperor and so is even willing to give a Norscan status. After all, he's dealing with the Sigmarite Church, Balthasar Gelt, possibly Valmir von Raukov (if I figure a nice way to include him) and Vlad von Carstein.

Regarding the gods... Well, Norscans think their Dark Gods are stronger, but if a Norscan were to witness the champion of his gods get thrown down by the champion of the southern god, Sigmar, I think that is reason enough to reconsider his position, as it seems clear the Southern God was the stronger. Nevermind the fact that Valten looked like a Barbarian Warrior-King anyway.

Technically, the initial Chaos invasion (before the Glottkin and Archaon, who were basically Norscan raider fleets) came from the northeast. Not the east. If it came from the east, they would have marched out of Blackfire Pass. In any case, the Norscans once controlled the entirety of Nordland as well as northerly parts of Ostland and Middenland, so any of the three could work as an earldom.

Theodoric would catch a massive amount of flak from his own people if he ever gave a Norscan rights to Nordland, seeing as how his province is almost always the first to suffer under northern steel. Not to mention it would also undermine his position before his rivals, giving them more ammunition to bear against him. No longer would he simply be "the Count who controls less than half of his own province", but also "the Count who collaborates with the Empire's greatest enemies". It would just be counterproductive to any powerplay he would attempt. Unless of course Theodoric decides to convert to Chaos worship, thus turning his province into a Chaos Northymbre from which the Norse could strike out against the rest of the Empire's Was Seaxe. Alternately, he gives lands to the Norse and mostly doesn't care what they do for a religion, so long as they help him get the Imperial throne. Sorta of a live-and-let die sort of thing; note that this doesn't necessarily eliminate the Chaos Northymbre idea anyway. Of course, he still has to deal with flak from his own people and the church of Ulric and Sigmar, for where von Carstein's involvement in Imperial affairs could be explained away as being for the greater good, Theodoric working with Norscans would simply be down to his powerhungry desire for the title of Emperor.

Not really. The Norscans, much like IRL Vikings, have as much an acute obsession with their own deaths as they do with inflicting death others. None of them see dying in battle as a failure, if anything it's a victory of another sort as they feed the gods with their death and are permitted to their halls due to dying as true and mighty warriors. No Norscan is going to lose respect for Archaon if he dies in battle to Valten, they're more likely going to hail him as even more of a hero, seeing as how the Dark gods are said to favour those who fight the hopeless fight.

Also, Valten doesn't look like a barbarian king. Norse kings look like Archaon - he's clad in a plate of armour that belongs to Morkar - a Norsii Everchosen and wields a sword enchanted with the spirit of a favoured servant of the Norse god of war. Valten is clad in armour and wielding a weapon crafted by southerly Dwarfs and is mounted on an horse bred in far away Ulthuan. Who do you think Norsemen are more likely to identify with? Nevermind that Archaon is ethnically Norse anyway. He's half-Norse. His father was a Varg, while his mother was a fisherman's wife from Nordland. Though the latter doesn't really change anything, as Norsemen only seem to care who your father was, like every other worthwhile culture in the world ever.

[Presentdent]

Technically, the initial Chaos invasion (before the Glottkin and Archaon, who were basically Norscan raider fleets) came from the northeast. Not the east. If it came from the east, they would have marched out of Blackfire Pass. In any case, the Norscans once controlled the entirety of Nordland as well as northerly parts of Ostland and Middenland, so any of the three could work as an earldom.

Theodoric would catch a massive amount of flak from his own people if he ever gave a Norscan rights to Nordland, seeing as how his province is almost always the first to suffer under northern steel. Not to mention it would also undermine his position before his rivals, giving them more ammunition to bear against him. No longer would he simply be "the Count who controls less than half of his own province", but also "the Count who collaborates with the Empire's greatest enemies". It would just be counterproductive to any powerplay he would attempt. Unless of course Theodoric decides to convert to Chaos worship, thus turning his province into a Chaos Northymbre from which the Norse could strike out against the rest of the Empire's Was Seaxe. Alternately, he gives lands to the Norse and mostly doesn't care what they do for a religion, so long as they help him get the Imperial throne. Sorta of a live-and-let die sort of thing; note that this doesn't necessarily eliminate the Chaos Northymbre idea anyway. Of course, he still has to deal with flak from his own people and the church of Ulric and Sigmar, for where von Carstein's involvement in Imperial affairs could be explained away as being for the greater good, Theodoric working with Norscans would simply be down to his powerhungry desire for the title of Emperor.

Not really. The Norscans, much like IRL Vikings, have as much an acute obsession with their own deaths as they do with inflicting death others. None of them see dying in battle as a failure, if anything it's a victory of another sort as they feed the gods with their death and are permitted to their halls due to dying as true and mighty warriors. No Norscan is going to lose respect for Archaon if he dies in battle to Valten, they're more likely going to hail him as even more of a hero, seeing as how the Dark gods are said to favour those who fight the hopeless fight.

Also, Valten doesn't look like a barbarian king. Norse kings look like Archaon - he's clad in a plate of armour that belongs to Morkar - a Norsii Everchosen and wields a sword enchanted with the spirit of a favoured servant of the Norse god of war. Valten is clad in armour and wielding a weapon crafted by southerly Dwarfs and is mounted on an horse bred in far away Ulthuan. Who do you think Norsemen are more likely to identify with? Nevermind that Archaon is ethnically Norse anyway. He's half-Norse. His father was a Varg, while his mother was a fisherman's wife from Nordland.

Ill have to respectfully disagree. The Norse are also obsessed with great deeds. And while I can agree that most Norwcans wouldn't be convinced, I think you're being a bit didactic by saying none would be impressed with Valten/Sigmar. As for Theodoric, that would be the point. He's no longer worrying about a proper election (after all, almost half of of the elector provinces are gone and their counts dead). He's just looking for support -- armed support for a civil war with Balthasar Gelt and Vlad von Carstein. Theodoric is power hungry, has absorbed Middenland after Todbringer's death and is looking for anyone to support his claim -- a Norscans carving out land in the defunct eastern half of the empire?

and unless I'm mistaken, earlier warhammer editions had friendly/neutral Norscans like the Werebears, no?

[Kotrag]

Ill have to respectfully disagree. The Norse are also obsessed with great deeds. And while I can agree that most Norwcans wouldn't be convinced, I think you're being a bit didactic by saying none would be impressed with Valten/Sigmar. As for Theodoric, that would be the point. He's no longer worrying about a proper election (after all, almost half of of the elector provinces are gone and their counts dead). He's just looking for support -- armed support for a civil war with Balthasar Gelt and Vlad von Carstein. Theodoric is power hungry, has absorbed Middenland after Todbringer's death and is looking for anyone to support his claim -- a Norscans carving out land in the defunct eastern half of the empire?

Archaon dying in battle against a worthy foe would also be a great deed. One no less greater than Valten's triumph. So while impressive, it likely wouldn't be so great as to convince them to abandon their ancestral gods. At best, you could maybe expect them to incorporate Sigmar into their pantheon of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh in some twisted way. But even that's a long shot - they're much more likely to merely begrudgingly acknowledge that maybe Sigmar's a god, and that maybe he's more powerful than most southern deities.

That's really the point I'm trying to make that Theodoric can't really maintain popular support or control over the provinces if he decides to go so far as to make Norsemen his Dukes. He'd already be fighting an uphill battle maintaining control over the provinces of Middenland and Ostland, as neither are likely going to prefer Theodoric over their own nobility, whatever his military power. Middelanders are grotesquely proud of their Teutognen bloodlines, and have ever held that over the Nordlanders who, alone of the Empire, cannot boast descent from any of the founding tribes. You think any Middenlander will ever accept some half-breed dog of mixed Was Jutone and Norse heritage like Gaussar as lord over men of pure Teutognen blood? And then, if he's shown to be working with heathen Norsemen from across the seas, well, I doubt Theodoric would ever hear the end of rebellion in Middenland alone.

Then, factor in how many of his own people would likely take umbrage with Norscans ruling their lands? Yeah, in fell swoop he'd split his own province down the middle. None of this is a question of playing by the rules or seeking a proper election - joining forces with Norsemen like this would cause more trouble than it would solve unless he agreed not to question them on matters of religion.

Think about what kind of support this Beowulf of ours would have amongst the Norse. At best, maybe he gets a few families of followers. Most Norsemen would see him as a heretic, hell, even his own tribe might disown him for his ideas. What amount of followers would he realistically have? Maybe enough to carve a new village somewhere in the south, but enough to prove as a decisive factor in a major political struggle? Not really. Unless of course, we decide to ditch the Normandy idea and go for a Northymbre instead.

and unless I'm mistaken, earlier warhammer editions had friendly/neutral Norscans like the Werebears, no?

You mean the Bearmen of Urslo? The guys whose battlecry was "the Dark Gods bless us"? Nope. As I recall, even in the Regiments of Renown book they still ended up as part of Archaon's invasion.

[Presentdent]

Archaon dying in battle against a worthy foe would also be a great deed. One no less greater than Valten's triumph. So while impressive, it likely wouldn't be so great as to convince them to abandon their ancestral gods. At best, you could maybe expect them to incorporate Sigmar into their pantheon of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh in some twisted way. But even that's a long shot - they're much more likely to merely begrudgingly acknowledge that maybe Sigmar's a god, and that maybe he's more powerful than most southern deities.

That's really the point I'm trying to make that Theodoric can't really maintain popular support or control over the provinces if he decides to go so far as to make Norsemen his Dukes. He'd already be fighting an uphill battle maintaining control over the provinces of Middenland and Ostland, as neither are likely going to prefer Theodoric over their own nobility, whatever his military power. Middelanders are grotesquely proud of their Teutognen bloodlines, and have ever held that over the Nordlanders who, alone of the Empire, cannot boast descent from any of the founding tribes. You think any Middenlander will ever accept some half-breed dog of mixed Was Jutone and Norse heritage like Gaussar as lord over men of pure Teutognen blood? And then, if he's shown to be working with heathen Norsemen from across the seas, well, I doubt Theodoric would ever hear the end of rebellion in Middenland alone.

Then, factor in how many of his own people would likely take umbrage with Norscans ruling their lands? Yeah, in fell swoop he'd split his own province down the middle. None of this is a question of playing by the rules or seeking a proper election - joining forces with Norsemen like this would cause more trouble than it would solve unless he agreed not to question them on matters of religion.

Think about what kind of support this Beowulf of ours would have amongst the Norse. At best, maybe he gets a few families of followers. Most Norsemen would see him as a heretic, hell, even his own tribe might disown him for his ideas. What amount of followers would he realistically have? Maybe enough to carve a new village somewhere in the south, but enough to prove as a decisive factor in a major political struggle? Not really. Unless of course, we decide to ditch the Normandy idea and go for a Northymbre instead.



You mean the Bearmen of Urslo? The guys whose battlecry was "the Dark Gods bless us"? Nope. As I recall, even in the Regiments of Renown book they still ended up as part of Archaon's invasion.

Thank you! I was iffy on the bear men. Now, when it comes to Middenland -- Todbringer's dead and I'm pretty sure his sons are too. My idea for Gausser taking control is a combination of his ambition and the fact that he's the nearest lord with an army (given that Reikland is capoot too if Karl Franz is dead). His control is meant to be tenuous and unpopular. He's a bit of a pompous ass. The Middenlandera aren't meant to like him, but I understand if you think allying with a Norscan would be a bridge too far. I'd like to do something interesting with the eastern provinces -- hence a small group of Norsemen that have abandoned the chaos gods and join up with what few survivors there are in the east, but it doesn't have to be by Gausser's say so. It's just that many people expressed a desire for some changing up in the Empire, fluff-wise (perhaps an excuse to run friendly marauders as greatswords) and the Norscan idea is what came up.

sidenote: Valmir von Raukov, alone among the eastern Elector-Counts, isn't killed off or missing by the end of End Times, and he's a bamf. Any ideas for him? Ostland is surely blasted to **** but it's something to think about. He could move into the vacuum of Reikland or Averland or even Middenland.

Back to the Norscan -- is there any way you could see it working? I really don't think a single warlord and loyal parts of his war and being swayed by Valten's heroics is too far-fetched. And that's enough to start carving out an earldom in a power vacuum when the rest of the empire is a rump state mired in civil war.

[Kotrag]

Back to the Norscan -- is there any way you could see it working? I really don't think a single warlord and loyal parts of his war and being swayed by Valten's heroics is too far-fetched. And that's enough to start carving out an earldom in a power vacuum when the rest of the empire is a rump state mired in civil war.

Make the Norscans settle the northeastern Empire independent of any Electors, drop the whole "we converted away from our gods to worship Sigmar" and let them keep their Chaos worship. It doesn't have to result in them constantly attacking the rest of the Empire, because Archaon is dead and the gods have dropped the whole apocalypse thing for the moment. Their only objective now is to build their new earldom, or perhaps series of earldoms.

As the Empire is currently in the midst of a new Age of the Three Emperors with Theodoric Gaussar's overtures to power, he clandestinely seeks out Norscan aid. Outwardly, he initiates a non-aggression pact with the Earldoms, rationalising it to his people by telling them that must focus first on "reuniting" the Empire. He nonetheless secretly points Norscan warbands towards his adversaries, exploiting their talent as warriors and paying for their services by allowing them to carry off whatever loot they plunder from their raids.

Of course, Theodoric doesn't intend to allow the Norsemen to squat in his rightful lands forever. Once Karl Franz and his undead allies are dealt with, he will set his gaze upon the barbarians and destroy them.

Of course, the Norsemen realise Theodoric's motives and play the game in such a way to prolong the Imperial civil war, only providing enough indirect aid to Theodoric to weaken Karl Franz, but also to keep the entire thing indecisive. As a result, Theodoric and Karl Franz are locked in eternal war, sapping each others' strength. While all the while, more Norscan warbands begin sailing down from the North, and the Norse keep building their strength until they have the numbers to sweep down upon the Empire entirely, destroy both Theodoric and Karl Franz, and establish a continent spanning Norscan Empire for the glory of Chaos.

That's just a rough idea, anyway.

[Captain Marius]

I think the last mention of Von Raukov in the end times narrative was he was holding Erengrad, the westernmost point of the Auric Bastion. Maybe he is still holding the city and offering succour to the guerrilla Kislevites still fighting for the Ice Queen?

I find this What If scenario fascinating, however i think it need to firmly establish what is actually considered to have happened in the End Times before the new world order cam be established.

Personally I love the Avengers/Incarnates, so i'd probably have everything happen up to the point where Mannfred screws everything up, maybe Tyrion stops him at the last second and the Incarnates close the Rift, then they lay the smackdown on the remaining Chaos forces at Middenheim? Or maybe when Sigmar returns at the Fall of Altdorf, instead of nuking all the baddies he unleashes the first host of the Sigmarines with similar effect, and goes on to mitigate some of the more... final... events of Thanquol and Archaon?

Personally I'd like to see where Grimgor and Skarsnik would fit if they truly were the Once and Future Gits that Wurrzag foresaw!

[Presentdent]

Make the Norscans settle the northeastern Empire independent of any Electors, drop the whole "we converted away from our gods to worship Sigmar" and let them keep their Chaos worship. It doesn't have to result in them constantly attacking the rest of the Empire, because Archaon is dead and the gods have dropped the whole apocalypse thing for the moment. Their only objective now is to build their new earldom, or perhaps series of earldoms.

As the Empire is currently in the midst of a new Age of the Three Emperors with Theodoric Gaussar's overtures to power, he clandestinely seeks out Norscan aid. Outwardly, he initiates a non-aggression pact with the Earldoms, rationalising it to his people by telling them that must focus first on "reuniting" the Empire. He nonetheless secretly points Norscan warbands towards his adversaries, exploiting their talent as warriors and paying for their services by allowing them to carry off whatever loot they plunder from their raids.

Of course, Theodoric doesn't intend to allow the Norsemen to squat in his rightful lands forever. Once Karl Franz and his undead allies are dealt with, he will set his gaze upon the barbarians and destroy them.

Of course, the Norsemen realise Theodoric's motives and play the game in such a way to prolong the Imperial civil war, only providing enough indirect aid to Theodoric to weaken Karl Franz, but also to keep the entire thing indecisive. As a result, Theodoric and Karl Franz are locked in eternal war, sapping each others' strength. While all the while, more Norscan warbands begin sailing down from the North, and the Norse keep building their strength until they have the numbers to sweep down upon the Empire entirely, destroy both Theodoric and Karl Franz, and establish a continent spanning Norscan Empire for the glory of Chaos.

That's just a rough idea, anyway.

I assume you meant Vlad every time you said Karl Franz. In this Age of the Three Emperors, there is also the manipulative Balthasar Gelt, who thinks the whole reason everyone's in the mess that they are is they've let local warlords (Elector-Counts) run things for too long, and wants to establish a magocracy of his own.

Regarding the Norse Empire from the glory of chaos, the general feeling I've gotten is 1. People are tired of Chaos constantly being so in your face and would prefer a more... subtle dread, as chaos tries to recuperate for a couple hundred years after losing their greatest Everchosen, with the principal chaos threat being represented by Beastmen and their Chosen Warrior leaders, as in early Warhammer. 2. People want the world to be ruined for a while, and for the north-eastern parts of the Empire to remain fairly dead and ruined and overrun by Beastmen/Chaos, other than small pockets of resistance similar to Felix's Band in Slayer. A resurgent Norse Empire in the eastern half goes against that. 3. People want to see another side to Norscans. There's this desire from multiple folks I talked to for at least a few, neutral Norscans -- hence the idea that was proposed of a Beowulf/Rollo character who abandons his Dark Gods and through charisma leads a small group of Norscans to settle in the ruined parts of the Empire, away from Norsca Proper, where they'd be considered heretics who abandoned their own heritage.

And again, the side note. What to do with Elector-Counts who didn't get mentioned? Valmir von Raukov of Ostland (though his county got nuked), Alberich of Stirland, Emmanuelle von Liebewitz (likely died at Nuln, but I'd like to change that). And who takes over in Reikland?

[Paviel]

The problem with Ulthuan sinking/eroding is that the Vortex in the center of the continent is supposedly the only thing preventing Chaos from swamping the world.

So if everything except the Isle of the Dead is sunk, what's guarding the Vortex?

If the Isle of the Dead is sunk too, and the Vortex is no longer sucking magic out of the world, what is?

If nothing is sucking magic out of the world, what's stopping Chaos from mutating the world beyond recognition Age-of-Sigmar style?

[Presentdent]

The problem with Ulthuan sinking/eroding is that the Vortex in the center of the continent is supposedly the only thing preventing Chaos from swamping the world.

So if everything except the Isle of the Dead is sunk, what's guarding the Vortex?

If the Isle of the Dead is sunk too, and the Vortex is no longer sucking magic out of the world, what is?

If nothing is sucking magic out of the world, what's stopping Chaos from mutating the world beyond recognition Age-of-Sigmar style?

One idea put forth was that the reason Archaon is ultimately defeated (and to get rid of the Incarnates' power, as it kinda screws up the post End Times status quo) was that there is a last ditch effort to create a new vortex, rather than just teaming up, Avengers Style, to fight at Middenheim, Teclis and Co. create a new Vortex elsewhere and succeed, but depower (or kill?) themselves in the process. And this ultimately allows Archaon to falter, for Valten to win, and for the Skaven's gambit to chitter all over the world to ultimately come to naught. Valten still dies in the end, though, to wrap up his narrative nicely. And Grimgor also being there (but dying) is a nice call-back to SoC and wraps up the Once And Future Git story (as Reynolds called it).

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Well if Karl Franz dies he does have an heir, at least for Reikland and Altdorf, his son Luitpold II as well as an unnamed daughter. If he survived the events he would inherit the family titles over Reikland and likely Altdorf as well. Whether or not he would be elected Emperor is a whole other story.

Of course looking at the Electors and the End Times, its not good for them. Marius Leitdorf died before the End Times and his succession was never sorted out and Talabecland's was missing if I remember correctly.. Todbringer, Hertwig and Ludenhof all died over the course of the End Times. Todbringer because of his stupidity and his long-standing grudge, Hertwig when the Auric Bastion was breached and Ludenhof at the hands of Gelt. Volkmar the Grim, an Elector in his own right, was sacrificed to resurrect Nagash. The Ar-Ulric would have died during the fall of Middenheim and likely the same with the Arch Lectors in Talabheim and Nuln when they fell.

Emmanuelle von Liebewitz may have actually died off-screen early on in the End Times. In the opening of the Return of Nagash novel Gods-Damn Mannfredis scrying various locations throughout the world to see what is happening. One of the scenes is von Liebewitz getting attacked by the crazed rioters and flagellants in Nuln. We don't see what happens to her but its clear they're trying to kill her.

That leaves the Moot and the Counts of Nordland, Ostland and Stirland unaccounted for. If we spare Nuln that leaves us with potentially six Electors alive, possibly seven if Luitpold or his sister survived. Also a likely very unwelcome Vlad von Carstein if he survives.

As for Karl Franz, Valten and Sigmar... well its a very murky area. Karl Franz died in Glottkin, what rose in his place wasn't Karl Franz, at least not entirely. With the Storm of Chaos, I always felt that Karl Franz should have died and Valten lived, resulting in a succession crisis between Valten, Todbringer and Luitpold II, with no end to it in sight.

But in the End Times with the return of Sigmar in Karl Franz body, a succession crisis is kind of moot point if he's alive as he's Sigmar. So that's not viable if Sigmar's around.

However the sheer rebuilding of the world after all that provides plenty of material without everything being a crisis.

[Cèsar de Quart]

Finally! Someone who agrees that Karl Franz should die! Yes! I am totally with you on the natural causes angle, actually, presaging yet another "War of the Three Emperors" period. Boris Todbringer would still be around -- and the most natural successor, as he was Franz's only real rival during the election. As for Raukov, I agree he's badass, but if we are accepting parts of End Times, Ostland got absolutely obliterated. If we were to see him alive, he wouldn't have an army to push him claim. Totally agree on everything else you said on the Empire. Regarding Bretonnia -- why? Isn't Gilles firmly in control as the God-King?

Yes, but Gilles is kind of boring. Isn't he? Although it would help make Bretonnia a more central army to the setting, if it managed to stay united and focus itself against the Norscan and Skaven threat.

But a trifecta of Todbringer(and the wolf-lovers) vs. Volkmar vs. Balthasar Gelt? I could definitely see it. And it makes Sylvania even greater of a threat, as there's not only a weakened empire, but an empire in civil war, without a Magnus the Pious yet to save it.

Yes. It can also help make Valten a more interesting character, and a more interesting future Karl Franz.

On Archaon, he's got to die and the Chaos Gods need to look for another Everchosen and lick their wounds. But how would you have him die in our Alternate Universe?

Have him die of hubris. Not killed in battle, not defeated by foe or friend, have him try and go against the Gods of Chaos. When he sees Sigmar in the flesh he realises Sigmar was not a lie (which would make Archaon a bit stupid, since he must have seen Sigmar priests working miracles and invoking battle prayers), he realises he's been cheated. He would then try and bring on some scheme to sever the connection between the Gods of Chaos and the World (with help from Be'lakor? It suits his slimy personality, and of course he'd want to become the sole God of Chaos himself), only to recieve the visit of Kairos Fateweaver, who'd tell him that he would end the world (one head would say this) and that the Gods would end him (the other head speaking). I like to think that Archaon would end up caught in Tzeentch's illusions and trapped inside a maze of his own mind. It would also be a good way to set things right with Kairos and the way GW managed his very underwhelming demise at the hands of Archaon.

[Presentdent]

Well if Karl Franz dies he does have an heir, at least for Reikland and Altdorf, his son Luitpold II as well as an unnamed daughter. If he survived the events he would inherit the family titles over Reikland and likely Altdorf as well. Whether or not he would be elected Emperor is a whole other story.

Of course looking at the Electors and the End Times, its not good for them. Marius Leitdorf died before the End Times and his succession was never sorted out and Talabecland's was missing if I remember correctly.. Todbringer, Hertwig and Ludenhof all died over the course of the End Times. Todbringer because of his stupidity and his long-standing grudge, Hertwig when the Auric Bastion was breached and Ludenhof at the hands of Gelt. Volkmar the Grim, an Elector in his own right, was sacrificed to resurrect Nagash. The Ar-Ulric would have died during the fall of Middenheim and likely the same with the Arch Lectors in Talabheim and Nuln when they fell.

Emmanuelle von Liebewitz may have actually died off-screen early on in the End Times. In the opening of the Return of Nagash novel Gods-Damn Mannfredis scrying various locations throughout the world to see what is happening. One of the scenes is von Liebewitz getting attacked by the crazed rioters and flagellants in Nuln. We don't see what happens to her but its clear they're trying to kill her.

That leaves the Moot and the Counts of Nordland, Ostland and Stirland unaccounted for. If we spare Nuln that leaves us with potentially six Electors alive, possibly seven if Luitpold or his sister survived. Also a likely very unwelcome Vlad von Carstein if he survives.

As for Karl Franz, Valten and Sigmar... well its a very murky area. Karl Franz died in Glottkin, what rose in his place wasn't Karl Franz, at least not entirely. With the Storm of Chaos, I always felt that Karl Franz should have died and Valten lived, resulting in a succession crisis between Valten, Todbringer and Luitpold II, with no end to it in sight.

But in the End Times with the return of Sigmar in Karl Franz body, a succession crisis is kind of moot point if he's alive as he's Sigmar. So that's not viable if Sigmar's around.

However the sheer rebuilding of the world after all that provides plenty of material without everything being a crisis.

What I'm thinking for End Times is:

Keep Battle of Altdorf and Pussing of Talabheim. Scrap the destruction of Middenheim/Nuln, but Todbringer still dies on his insane quest. Luthor Huss doesn't get merced all of a sudden, so he can become Grand Theogonist in Volkmar's absence. Eastern half of the Empire (Ostland, Ostermark, Hochland, Talabecland) are a smoldering ruin after the invasion. Totally forgot about Luitpold II, so thanks for that. Luitpold II would become the new Elector-Count of Reikland assuming he survives. Regarding Karl Franz, I was thinking that after the End Times are averted, Sigmar is no longer needed, and his spirit leaves Karl Franz, who quickly wastes away and dies, leaving the Empire in conflict. Perhaps not exactly the most far-seeing decision of God-Sigmar, but he's saved the world and can let the Empire go through some birthing pains as it comes into the new world.

So, that would leave Luitpold II fighting for his position as Emperor (possibly with a surviving Valmir von Raukov as a general), but without the bargaining chip that is Altdorf. But maybe he gets support from the surviving church of Sigmar and Luthor Huss. Theoderic Gausser, the ambitious Elector-Count of Nordland stakes his claim over the Drakwald and starts absorbing Middenland (what with Todbringer dead and the Nordland army likely gathered at Middenheim anyway), "until a new Elector-Count can be placed in his stead." Gausser's also putting his hat in the ring for Emperor, and gobbling up territory as he does. Vlad von Carstein is reviving his bid for Emperor, further legitimized by his elevation to Elector-Count, and flexing his muscle near Stirland, but still dealing with the other, rebellious, Vampiric families. And finally there's Balthasar Gelt, trying to finaggle a way to dissolve the imperial system into a magocracy without these flawed, power-hungry fools constantly trying to take control.

Thus giving us a nice place for fluff to develop in this War of the Three Emperors, impacted by the invasion of Archaon.

I'm open to ideas, however, about how to divide the elector-counts, what to do with them, what they should be doing in this new setting...


@Cesar de Quart,

Gilles may be boring, but it's something new and he didn't even get killed off before the end of End Times, so he's here to stay, for the moment, and also allows for an expansionist Bretonnia into Estalia and Tilea.

Regarding Archaon, I like the idea, but there's also something poetic about Valten, Archaon, and Grimgor all taking each other out -- a nice callback to Storm of Chaos, but also because the battle between Valten and Archaon was epic until the Skaven kill-steal.


@Captain Marius,

If you're fascinated by this opportunity, welcome aboard! Happy to have help! And I totally missed that about Raukov. Great idea. With Ostland destroyed, he might just remain in Kislev, fighting a running guerrilla battle, the stubborn bastard he is. As for the Incarnates, one of the ideas being tossed around was that a second Vortex is opened to replace that which was destroyed at Ulthuan (after all, the world would be swamped by chaos, otherwise). But this magical vortex also depowers the Incarnates, thus wrapping that up nicely, as the Warhammer Avengers aren't exactly gritty enough for the post End Times status-quo.


@Kotrag,

Reading the Lexicanum entry for Norscans, it seems that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books actually left a ton of room for friendly Norscans, mainly because Marienburg had been trying so hard to establish Norse trade routes, and it includes that some of the southern tribes actually deal honestly and fairly with their Imperial/Southern neighbors and only raid for survival. They are far more focused on adventure and acts of daring that slaughter and murder. In addition, they actually worship from of the Imperial pantheon, like Ulric, in addition to the Dark Gods. However, refusing to join a Chaos incursion was usually grounds for annihilation. So, it could be that our Not-Beowulf witnesses Archaon's fall at the hands of Valten (and Grimgor), returns to his town in Norsca with tales of wonder at the southern god's power. Neighboring tribes grow antsy, so he and his retainers flee, migrating to the emptier parts of the Empire in the east, worshiping a less Chaotic pantheon and establishing a toe-hold in northern Ostland, fighting off Beastmen.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Oh, one thing I did forget is that Emmanuelle von Liebewitz was old friends with Karl Franz and actually became Elector Countess with Karl Franz's aid. So if Nuln and the Countess survive it is quite possible that she would back Luitpold II.

Though if both Valten and Karl Franz are gone, with no Sigmar around, the Cult of Sigmar would most likely support him as he is the son of Karl Franz, an Emperor visibly blessed by Sigmar.

Actually, quick question about Middenheim, what's Ulric's status? After all Teclis did seal the Flame of Ulric, depowering the God and effectively killing him, with the last bits of his power going into two men who both get killed by Archaon, completely finishing off the God.