The Old World. What if it wasn't actually gone?

[Urgat]

I know I know, I'm just being sentimental and trying to bring back something that's lost, but I don't need GW to try and make the Old World live on in a way that would regardless be coherent with AoS (so one can pick any AOS new unit they'd like, for example).
So I was wondering about something, and I ended up reading the last page of Archaon again.
And it occured to me the planet is actually NOT gone (I explain why later).
From there, it's pretty possible to imagine two scenarios:
1) a post End Time events era.
2) and era on the Old World that is concurrent with the AoS timeline.

On point 1)
The world doesn't go in a day, at least the French version makes it abundantly clear (last sentence of the second paragraph, it talks about wars following the opening of the third gate in Middenheim). The chaos gods have all but abandonned it to its fate. When they say the destruction could have lasted a moment or a thousand years, they don't talk about the whole process, but actually when the Oak of Ages is swallowed, that's at least the meaning given in my version of the book (French, remember). The mention of wars makes it clear there's survivors, and not just chaos people either, because they're described as "lost in the end". In that light, it is pretty possible to picture things going on for a while before the inevitable end.
A post-apocalyptic Old World that may last for a thousand years is absolutly not out of question, after all.

On point 2)
At the very end, when the world finally does die out, though Sigmar rides away on the planet's core, the planet itself is apparenty not gone (it's described as cold and barren). From what I can gather, it is probably lost in some gigantic magic storm, or engulfed in the realms of chaos, but it's still there. How did the core get out w/o destroying it, I have no idea. Maybe a bit of the crust has blown up leaving a giant crevasse, maybe it's teleported away (hey, we're in AoS mindset now, remember).
Anyway, the planet itself is still there. And since it's chaos, time doesn't mean much. It's not too much of a stretch, if we look upon what impossible things are achieved in AoS, that someone (Sigmar, an elf, anybody really, why not Slaanesh even? Slaanesh would be the best candidate, I can see nobody else who could bring the planet in an untainted way convincingly - and remember, by the end (s)he didn't really want it destroyed anymore) decides that for some reason they need the Old World back, and manage to pull it out of the Chaos Realm? Possibly in a state that predates the final destruction (the most fun would obviously be during ET, let's say Nagash being back means they can't go further than after he's resurected, but not much further after Glotkin, so we keep some semblance of Dwarf, Bretonnian and Empire. Massive destruction, but possibly recoverable).
Let's say, a "Warhammer - Age of Slaanesh" world, where everybody is given a second chance. Since AoS has probably kicked Slaanesh away anyway, let's have Slaanesh be the only chaotic presence on that New-Old World, giving everybody a second chance, w/o the overwhelming odds stacked for chaos since the three other brothers and Archaon are now gone and happily playing their Realmgate war things.

What do you think?

[WarbossKurgan]

It says the same thing in the English version, so I can see this being a feasible setting if you want to use it.

Since each of the 7 Mortal Realms is nearly infinite there is plenty of room of a single planet in each one of them... maybe at a point they all cross over?

[Rogue Star]

Um, it wasn't lost, it's mentioned in Age of Sigmar. It's in orbit over Sigmar's palance in his celestial realm... he mines it for "Sigmarite" which is what he equips the Stormcast Eternals with.

[Col. Tartleton]

Could places like Anvrok, Denvrok, and Kantrok in the realm of Metal be slabs of the crust? While the core Mallus was set in the Realm of Heaven?

[Razios]

I can see nobody else who could bring the planet in an untainted way convincingly decides that for some reason they need the Old World back, and manage to pull it out of the Chaos Realm? Possibly in a state that predates the final destruction (the most fun would obviously be during ET, let's say Nagash being back means they can't go further than after he's resurected, but not much further after Glotkin, so we keep some semblance of Dwarf, Bretonnian and Empire. Massive destruction, but possibly recoverable).

The problem is the status quo have been broken, Nagash is there, the dead are one by his side, the empire have been reduce, marinburg is reduce to nothing, I feel people want the same status quo but with some dead people them, why not use storm of chaos? it was infamous for it actually, now is the oposite way

[Urgat]

Because SoC has been retconed, and quite frankly, it was pants. I much prefer ET to SoC, what was supposed to happen did happen in ET, while SoC only made all the forboddings about Chaos winning, Archaon being the last of the Everchosen and so on a sorry joke.
I'm pretty fine with the status quo being broken anyway, I see no problem with things moving, I just want a familiar setting to set my battles in, and was wondering if I could find an alternative to "I'll just ignore it all". There's really no problem with a few cities gone or Nagash back that I can think of.

Could places like Anvrok, Denvrok, and Kantrok in the realm of Metal be slabs of the crust? While the core Mallus was set in the Realm of Heaven?

No idea, I really don't know anything about the AoS background to be honest.

[Francis]

Because SoC has been retconed, and quite frankly, it was pants. I much prefer ET to SoC, what was supposed to happen did happen in ET, while SoC only made all the forboddings about Chaos winning, Archaon being the last of the Everchosen and so on a sorry joke.

SoC was great. I loved the fact that the players threw the prepared script in GW's face, and the desperate writing of Gav Thorpe as they tried to take control of the setting again was at times hilarious :P. I have no problem with Archaon being headbutted into the ground by Grimgor at the end. By that time he should have lost the favour of the gods already. All the everchosen have believed themselves to be the last so what is wrong with old archy being wrong as well?

The stories that emerged in the aftermath set a lovely tone also. Chaos remnants being pushed back into Kislev and the wastes in the "war of the north", successor struggles in Averland, the secession of Sylvania under Mannfred, and trouble in the Border Princes, not to mention the fact that Malekith tries to trick the Phoenix Throne into wasting its strength fighting in Naggaroth.

The SoC turned the clock back from midnight and dialed the epicness down a few notches, which in my eyes was a good thing. It also opened the world up for more potential interesting plot-lines than "Chaos invades oh noooes". The year 2525 post the SoC is my preferred setting for warhammer battles and campaigns by far.

[Urgat]

SoC was great. I loved the fact that the players threw the prepared script in GW's face

They abused the rules. Throwing all the results on one single town wasn't one of the community's highest moments.

I have no problem with Archaon being headbutted into the ground by Grimgor at the end.

I don't either, but...

By that time he should have lost the favour of the gods already.

...I like my fluff to be coherent. There's no way this would have been the outcome if the events had unfolded in any logical way. Holding one backwater town shouldn't have had any influence on the chaos advance. That all the results of the campaign stemed from a quirk in the rules that the players happily abused is not something I enjoy.

All the everchosen have believed themselves to be the last so what is wrong with old archy being wrong as well?

They didn't believe anything, it's how it was. Word of god stuff, prophecies, whatever. It's the chaos gods who called Archaon Lord of the End Times, not Archaon himself.

The stories that emerged in the aftermath set a lovely tone also. Chaos remnants being pushed back into Kislev and the wastes in the "war of the north", successor struggles in Averland, the secession of Sylvania under Mannfred, and trouble in the Border Princes, not to mention the fact that Malekith tries to trick the Phoenix Throne into wasting its strength fighting in Naggaroth.

That was nice indeed for the most part, but could have happened all the same if Archaon had walked all over Middenheim. Total discredit was thrown upon chaos. How can we believe they're a world-scale threat if they can't take a single city? Archaon was completely and utterly overdone by a goblin in the fluff. As much as I love Grom being the most successful invader ever in the modern history of the Old World, it didn't make sense Archaon couldn't even achieve a tenth of what the Paunch did.
And what's great about Mannfred's treatment in SoC? It's one of the lamest blurbs of fluff GW has ever written.

The SoC turned the clock back from midnight and dialed the epicness down a few notches, which in my eyes was a good thing. It also opened the world up for more potential interesting plot-lines than "Chaos invades oh noooes". The year 2525 post the SoC is my preferred setting for warhammer battles and campaigns by far.

The fall of Middenheim could have made this happen too, with Archaon having to pose for a while. Since we were stuck in time back then, that would have meant no further major chaos incursion for years, focusing the attention on the other factions.

The only real result of SoC was to make Chaos a big failure.

Anyway, that's not the purpose of my topic, so may we go back on topic (well I guess it's dead already so no matter, but still)? We can discuss this over by PM if you wish.

[Francis]

We can discuss this over by PM if you wish.

No need, I agree with you on a lot, particularly the part about Mannfred, he should have stayed in Sylvania during the SoC.

While the rules were quirky and open for abuse, the forces of Order did outfight the forces of chaos by a large margin (might have been down to the poor chaos AB at the time, and the fact that the O&G players who GW expected would fight for chaos switched sides), so in that sense I don't think Archaon should have taken Middenheim either way.

Middenheim in the hands of Chaos would also have thrown the "dial back" aspect out the window in my eyes, and as such I am glad that he failed. At the end of the day, GW decided to throw the warhammer world to the dogs anyway, but there are already a precedence for several versions of this world (warhammer online, SoC, and now Creative Assembly's new game). The end times ending practically gives the players the choice to write the end for themselves, so if you want to play in that setting, it is perfectly defensible from a fluff point of view to do so. I am picking a somewhat easier path and just choose the GW version that I prefer.

[hagen88]

I hear you Urgat... I can't blame gw for terminating the Old World (actually I could but I decided to get over it) but I was expecting them to replace it with something really different from what we got in the end... AoS is great on some accounts but the general feel of it and some of its principles are so different from what I envision a fantasy world should be. So to answer to your question, I was actually expecting from 9th edition (when I still called it like that) to be set in the aftermath of the apocalypse, Archoan finally winning the day and conquering Middenheim, extinguishing the Flame of Ulric and humans hope with it, and the humans reduced to survival bands of fugitive warriors... Post-apocalyptic landsknechts, dwarves and elves always sounded like a good idea to me but I can see why they did not want to go for it.

But enough ranting, I believe all the reasons you are citing to keep playing AoS in the Old World are valid, I even believe they made those passages so vague just to let people do what they want with this... I will also add this: remember we are now talking about a setting (AoS) floating in the Real of Chaos, where time and science laws does not clearly apply anymore (part of the reason I am not convinced by the setting btw, but in this case it comes in our favour) so it is perfectly (il)logic to have crosses between the two settings as well... Your orcs/orruks might be fighting to enter a Realmgate to Ghyrian only to be misleaded by some capricious god or aethyric event and appear in the prehistory of the Old World (perhaps this is exactly how orcs arrived into the wh world in the end).
You could even go the terminator way and having Sigmar sending stormcasts to the battle of middenheim to prevent chaos winning and the world ending. I am not saying these are good ideas, but they are certainly possible in a setting like AoS where cities can be built on top of gigantic worms and the Realm of Chaos poured into the physical reality so extensively.

Oh, and by the way, I have to agree with Francis... Though I also thought SoC was one of the biggest failures of gw, the post-SoC setting was the best incarnation of the old world I have ever played in! 10 years of great fun with wfrp 2nd ed can confirm this!!

[Urgat]

I don't have the time to reply on everything for now, I'll just point out I play 8th ed, I do't plan on switching to AoS rules, I'm just trying to be consistent fluff-wise.

[Kotrag]

I don't have the time to reply on everything for now, I'll just point out I play 8th ed, I do't plan on switching to AoS rules, I'm just trying to be consistent fluff-wise.

Good. AOS rules are ****.

[Razios]

you see, the biggest problem Warhammer fantasy is that is near imposible to move the background....why?

It was build in status quo is god

That it, warhammer isnt like warmachine or other where the background move little by little forward and there is change here and there, almost all was set in past, the codex have bigger timeline, more explanation of why X o Y happen but nothing forward, let see

First the is the fact almost all faction are getting in their height, the empire have scientist revoltuion, malekith is stronger as ever, chaos is overflowing,etc,etc

Them there is the fact we have like 3 doomsdays scenarios: Nagash coming back, the skaven uprising and chaos asending, all this turn the world upside down, is not just "they are defeat it and the day is save" I meant CHANGE the whole thing, SoC also have issue like the whole conflic been empirevschaos to the point of Nagash sitting like lazy bumb it was while the world he try to conquer almost slip from his hands, thing is warhammer can go forward because it was in their last page, is the final battle around, so suddenly you have to drop it which is annoying or going "it will happen....ANY MOMENT NOW" which is even MORE annoying.

And more important, chaos already won, they said that in the codex all the freaking time, warhammer was a glorious last stand against the darkness and nothing could change that, so any endtime would end in the same way, there is a reaosn AoS is about hope, because they want the result to be diferent

SoC fail in show the epic battle, in the end archeron become just another chaos warlord wannabe who is throw back and aside of a few people dead, everything when buissnes as usual in the grimdark world, that WAS AWFULL, also that is why I cant take the "endhammer" idea seriously since it was more "EVERYTHING THAT HAPPEN IS RETCON NOW, IS THE SAME THING AS EVER!" ughhhh that was bad.

[ashendant]

A big piece of the Oak of Age can be found in Ghyran, so if a giant tree and the core of the planet survived, it's likely that more parts of it survived.

[Kotrag]

The worst part about the Age of Sigmar is that GW could barely flesh out one world. How the **** are they gonna satisfactorily develop the Mortal Realms to have the same detail as the Empire?

[Horace35]

The worst part about the Age of Sigmar is that GW could barely flesh out one world. How the **** are they gonna satisfactorily develop the Mortal Realms to have the same detail as the Empire?

They won't. It is too much effort and expense and the people are not there to put the same love into it. As others have said I suspect churn and burn will be the order of the day with more factions arriving with little lore attached

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