Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 133

Thread: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

  1. #21
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    2,219

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Mat Ward's Daemons army book was certainly the worst offender but 7th ed VC's weren't far off. HEs and DEs were comparable aside from some truly broken choices in the DE book. Army wide ASF for HEs was just annoying for the most part and their units received some big buffs but this was matched by appropriate points hikes across the board (as awesome as Swordmasters were, you were still paying 15pts for a model with T3 and a 5+ save). Lizardmen and Skaven were pretty OP too but arguably they needed to be to match the benchmark set by Daemons, VC and DE.

    5th was the edition I started with and it was certainly a lot of fun. As with 2nd edition 40k, it required some degree of restraint or 'mutual consent' between the players. My first experiences as a Wood Elf player were up against a Skaven player who ran a Grey Seer on a Manticore with the fell blade and an Undead player who ran a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon with the frostblade, carstein ring and black amulet. These guys completely outclassed any characters that I could field and could wipe out entire armies on their own. I started to enjoy the game a lot more when we applied a standard limit of 50pts per magic item (which I seem to remember was recommended by the WD team for standard games). There were actually articles in WD which discussed the use of more powerful magic items and which recommended that they were omitted aside from very large games or special scenarios. I remember the classic line "the forbidden rod should be" .

    Magic was also more powerful than 6th/7th and felt like a bit of a lottery - I didn't like the fact that my undead opponent could conceivably draw irresistable force on the first turn and wipe out half of my army with wind of death. It seemed pointless to have even put my models on the table.

    6th kept a lot of the core game of 5th intact and was probably GW's best ever attempt to make a tight and balanced ruleset. The main changes were to introduce greater composition restrictions, reduce the power and influence of heroes and big monsters and to tone down magic. These changes were all pretty successful in my view. The composition system was more elegant and scaled far better than 40k's FOC (don't understand why they didn't port it over in subsequent editions of 40k). The magic system wasn't perfect - some accused it of being bland and certain aspects (such as spells which gave the caster combat buffs) were not as well implemented as they could have been. However, for the most part I thought that magic worked well - potentially game changing rather than game winning. The toning down of characters and monsters was very well implemented as it gave rank and file troops at least a fighting chance against even the most powerful units.

    5th is still a lot of fun for the sheer diversity of options. 6th/7th is better suited to balanced/competitive play.

  2. #22
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cortez View Post
    I still love 8th edition but 9th Age is very well written and the rules make sense and are clarified. AOS on the other hand, well is a beer and pretzels game. If you want to play a game that is supported by GW and fights in a Cluster-******* fight in the middle. Stay with AOS lol.
    Noooooope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

    If all your games of AoS devolve into a big melee in the middle of the board, you're not playing AoS.

    As for me, I started collecting minis in 4th ed, but only really started playing games with 6th ed ...

    6th ed : overpowered Heroes, useless O&G army, ubercombos for Chaos ... not very fun getting rolled over by the "must have, soooo good" armies.

    7th ed : ubermagic armies (Daemons, VC), half-inch shuffle, charge with fear causing outnumbering unit = win the game. Again, not fun when you're trying to play a thematic army, alone in a crowd of WAACers ...

    8th ed : the more models you have, the more you win. Even with my Night Goblins. A couple of units of 100 NGs and lots of shamans = win. Don't need an opponent, I-WIN-BUTTON can play alone. Still not really fun.

    And now I play AoS, and I actually enjoy it tremendously, it takes me back to my roots as a roleplayer, it's simple in appearance but surprisingly complex once you figure out the finer points of unit shapes and movement, you can play with everything you like, set yourself hard restrictions and STILL have a chance of winning, etc.

    I really don't understand the hate for this game, for me it's the best thing that happened in wargaming in the last three decades.

    To each their own I guess ...

    Now, flame away WhineSeerites !
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  3. #23
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,678

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spell_of_Destruction View Post
    The horde rules seemed a good idea on paper but it really ought to have been a feature for large, weak massed infantry not elite units. Steadfast seemed to ruin the game for me.
    Indeed. It felt like they were trying to fix a rather big issue that WHFB had had for a long time: Cavalry being better than infantry. Basically most infantry was ballpark balanced compared to other infantry, and most cavalry was ballpark balanced compared to other cavalry, but when you put infantry against cavalry, cavalry would generally do much better. I think GW was trying to move the focus to infantry, but the rules were not very well thought out, and combat could often just end up in a slow boring grind. Magic felt like it was made really really strong to counterbalance infantry, but they went overboard there as well. 8th edition was the edition that killed WHFB for me, for this reason. AoS was the edition that then went on and burnt the corpse and salted the ground around it.

  4. #24
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    407

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorcryst View Post
    Noooooope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

    If all your games of AoS devolve into a big melee in the middle of the board, you're not playing AoS.

    As for me, I started collecting minis in 4th ed, but only really started playing games with 6th ed ...

    6th ed : overpowered Heroes, useless O&G army, ubercombos for Chaos ... not very fun getting rolled over by the "must have, soooo good" armies.

    7th ed : ubermagic armies (Daemons, VC), half-inch shuffle, charge with fear causing outnumbering unit = win the game. Again, not fun when you're trying to play a thematic army, alone in a crowd of WAACers ...

    8th ed : the more models you have, the more you win. Even with my Night Goblins. A couple of units of 100 NGs and lots of shamans = win. Don't need an opponent, I-WIN-BUTTON can play alone. Still not really fun.

    And now I play AoS, and I actually enjoy it tremendously, it takes me back to my roots as a roleplayer, it's simple in appearance but surprisingly complex once you figure out the finer points of unit shapes and movement, you can play with everything you like, set yourself hard restrictions and STILL have a chance of winning, etc.

    I really don't understand the hate for this game, for me it's the best thing that happened in wargaming in the last three decades.

    To each their own I guess ...

    Now, flame away WhineSeerites !
    Dude, you should reaaaaally try 4th Edition.

  5. #25
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    2,219

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Yes, I'm sure he'll find it a blast considering he found heroes to be OP in 6th!

  6. #26
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Dude, you should reaaaaally try 4th Edition.
    While I never had the chance to actually play, I had all the books and read them carefully ... and it didn't "click" with my wants and needs.

    Sorry, a bit too complex for my poor befuddled brain, and I was 14 years old at that moment, I just wanted to put my "RPG characters" on the table and roll some dice.

    And that's one of the reasons I like AoS so much, I finally can use a couple of minis, devise a scenario/battleplan, roll dice and avoid overloading my brain
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  7. #27
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    407

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorcryst View Post
    While I never had the chance to actually play, I had all the books and read them carefully ... and it didn't "click" with my wants and needs.

    Sorry, a bit too complex for my poor befuddled brain, and I was 14 years old at that moment, I just wanted to put my "RPG characters" on the table and roll some dice.

    And that's one of the reasons I like AoS so much, I finally can use a couple of minis, devise a scenario/battleplan, roll dice and avoid overloading my brain
    Rick Priestley has said that 4th Edition was always his favorite edition of Warhammer. If that's not a ringing endorsement, I don't know what is! You should give it another look!

  8. #28
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Rick Priestley has said that 4th Edition was always his favorite edition of Warhammer. If that's not a ringing endorsement, I don't know what is! You should give it another look!
    You're a bit of a fanboi aren't you ?

    The only problem with that is finding other people to play ... most of the gaming clubs here in Belgium play either AoS/40K with the latest rules or "misc other" games ... and my own gaming group has made the transition to AoS without looking back.
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  9. #29
    Chaplain
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    235

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    In 1st and 2nd edition it was finding its legs. In 3rd edition it was a good game but complicated. 4th and 5th simplified things and were good except heroes were too overpowered. 6th was the pinnacle with much of 4th the same or better and heroes brought into line. After 6th with ravening hordes the slow descent to train wreck began. There were some good additions later, but they were far out weighed by the bad.

    3rd and 6th are the best 2 editions depending on how complex or streamlined you want things imo.

  10. #30
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    407

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorcryst View Post
    You're a bit of a fanboi aren't you ?
    That, sir, is an understatement.

    You'd be surprised at how many people still have their 4th and 5th army book on the bookshelf at home... just ask around! I noticed they just did a big 5th edition tournament in Poland, so it might be easier than you think!

  11. #31
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Oh, I have all my old books myself ... but I'm the only one in a 150 kms radius around my town ... and well, Poland is roughly 2500 kms from Belgium, a bit too far to go to a tournament (not even talking about the fact that I visceraly hate tournaments and competitive play).
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  12. #32
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    In the dark woods
    Posts
    2,661

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by AFnord View Post
    Indeed. It felt like they were trying to fix a rather big issue that WHFB had had for a long time: Cavalry being better than infantry. Basically most infantry was ballpark balanced compared to other infantry, and most cavalry was ballpark balanced compared to other cavalry, but when you put infantry against cavalry, cavalry would generally do much better. I think GW was trying to move the focus to infantry, but the rules were not very well thought out, and combat could often just end up in a slow boring grind. Magic felt like it was made really really strong to counterbalance infantry, but they went overboard there as well. 8th edition was the edition that killed WHFB for me, for this reason. AoS was the edition that then went on and burnt the corpse and salted the ground around it.
    I think it's more that GW tried to be more realistic(funny I know) about it. Horde formation isn't an issue unless you are facing high elves with their stupid banner but that's the fault of the army book and not the rule itself which in turns enhances several armies like beastmen for which the rule seem to have been written for and the only ones that I have seen use it, everyone else focus on ranks.
    Steadfast however is the clear answer to making infantry good enough and it does just that.
    Now I have had a few matches where everything just ended up in a big fight in the middle of the board where all units were fighting each other and it became a grind but it was actually funny.

    Most of the time however I never see that. From what I have noticed with talking to friends that live in other cities and on this forum is that people play 8e very differently depending on where you are. Some areas, just one 2500pts match can take like 5-6 hours where in my area we play 3000pts matches in 2-3 hours. Some play very abusivly, picking the absolute best in their book and abusing every rule as much as they can and this is usually where the most complaints come from but where I play and others, we play it more casual, not as hardcore with the rules, picking fun units over the competitive ones and here the rules work alot better.
    We got centers and we got flanks and the main fight will usually be at the center in which the units on the flank will exploit and one goal is usually to clear the flanks so you can do a nice pincer move and crush the opponent, that's usually how our matches go so we rarely get this slow grind(except in the center but that's where steadfast comes in and it does so nicely.) but a more fluid game where the fighting usually only lasts maybe 1-2 rounds of fighting before one wins that fight and the unit that won is free to usually support the ones in the center.

    In most historical battles, the main fighting was usually done in the center, maybe not the most important part of a battle but in general, if your center falls, you are doomed. We do the same, this isn't intentional but it's just instinct so you were to see us play you will usually see the big infantry blocks in the middle, usually the core choices so not the elite and usually around 50 models big but rarely in horde formation since going for steadfast here. They are sent forward like paws in a chess game and encounters the other guy's center and then the what you can call grind begins but it's suppose to do so. They will just hold but if you are lucky, you might win the fight and the opponent roll badly causing them to run away and there you go, you broke his center.
    Some might do more fancy tricks like having his troops in a C-like position and it can work but still, the center is for the grind as it should be and it up to the flanks to ensure that the center is protected but also to flank the opponent's center.
    Like the Battle of Gaugamela, Alexander knew his center would hold so it important for the flanks to hold more so since if they failed, then the Persians would just roll up the center and win.
    So for this, Steadfast is a very good rule and while I understand that not everyone has had experiences like the ones I have every week, I wouldn't blame the rules, I would blame the players.
    Strange thing to do since everyone has different tastes and wants to play the game differently and that's fine but when I read about players having nothing but grinds in 8e, I feel sorry for them since from my perspective, they are missing out on what feels like the true spirit of the game.
    Armies of Malagor:
    Warhammer Fantasy/9th Age: Beastmen, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Legion of Chaos, Undead Legion.
    Warhammer 40k: Chaos Space Marines, Ad-mech, Sisters of Battle
    Warmahordes: Skorne, Trollbloods, Khador, Circle Orboros

  13. #33
    Chapter Master Bingo the Fun Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    'Merica
    Posts
    1,661

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    I still have my 4th/5th, 6th, 7th and some 8th ed army books. They are...my preciousssss. No, seriously, the short stories contained therein are still easily my favorite from any game system I've played since.

    Late 8th edition was rather unpleasant, although I would have been thrilled if they could have at least completed the editions. The End Times really turned me off to Fantasy. Had I known they were going to nuke the whole place, I would have played more games while I still could.

    After much thinking, I have to say that 6th edition was the best edition in my humble opinion. While I hated that the army books were subjectively written, they now stand out from all the other later books which just copy and pasted elements of the 4th/5th edition books and threw in some hyperbolic and contrived drivel.

  14. #34
    Commander Horace35's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    654

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    The end times didn't happen for me, I just put my fingers in my ears and ignored it

    I am with Malagor and have a similar experience with 8th, except I doubt I could ever get a 3000 point game done inside 3 hours. Including setup & tidy away I reckon a 2500 point game would take me around 4-5 hours. This would be sped up a touch if I played more regularly.

    I never understood the magic criticism of 8th, I find it no more powerful than any other edition. Miscasts always seem incredibly punishing to me.

    I have also never seen anybody put down multiple units of 100+ Night Goblins & shamans, but I guess that is down to who you play with.

  15. #35
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Thumbs up Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace35 View Post
    I have also never seen anybody put down multiple units of 100+ Night Goblins & shamans, but I guess that is down to who you play with.
    That was me

    And it was mostly due to the fact that the only three other players in my town at that time were ultracompetitive WAACers that played Vampire Counts, Tzeentch WoC or Tzeentch Daemons ... after a couple of turns my big blocks of 10x10 gobboes were down to 40 or so, so I was able to stand a charge and still keep Steadfast and Horde rules ...

    I did try, honestly and for a long time, to play a MSU style army in that particular "meta", but after being roflstomped several times I was totally fed up ... I even started my Nurgle Daemons army to have a slight chance of not losing in the second turn of the game.

    And then, Glory Be, AoS came and did away with the "win with your wallet" mindset ... most of those rule-abusing WAACers quit right then, and the new generation of players is much more relaxed and friendly.

    BTW, I think I have an army shot with that huge unit somewhere in PLOG here on WarSeer ...
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  16. #36
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    In the dark woods
    Posts
    2,661

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace35 View Post
    I have also never seen anybody put down multiple units of 100+ Night Goblins & shamans, but I guess that is down to who you play with.
    I have, infact seen someone put down 2 units with 100 night goblins in each with lords, heroes and shamans in each of them.
    Needless to say, it doesn't do well and generally lose.
    All it takes is one of those bigs spells and those big units are reduced to nothing which is the point of the powerful spells, to remove deathstars and it did just that until High Elves showed up and brought it back.
    Remember during the days when 9th Age was good enough and one of the threads on their forums was that deathstars are back and it was due to them nerfing those big spells.
    Armies of Malagor:
    Warhammer Fantasy/9th Age: Beastmen, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Legion of Chaos, Undead Legion.
    Warhammer 40k: Chaos Space Marines, Ad-mech, Sisters of Battle
    Warmahordes: Skorne, Trollbloods, Khador, Circle Orboros

  17. #37
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    In my case, I faced *three* Terrorgheist or a lot of bolt spells at 2000 points, so I didn't need to worry about the Nuke Spells ... but you're right, winning or even drawing back then with a thematic Night Goblin force was a myth ...
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  18. #38
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    In the dark woods
    Posts
    2,661

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    You can win with a night goblin army but not with the huge blob but rather the smaller units with fanatics, doomdivers, pump wagons and squigs.
    Those types of armies can do suprisingly well, I know, I have lost to them on more then 1 occasion.
    I wouldn't say MSU style but decent sized units.

    Also you can't face 3 terrorgheists in a 2000pts match, you can squeeze in 2 of them but no more since you can only have 500pts in rare at that point limit and they are almost half that in points.
    So if you faced 3 then your opponent cheated.
    Armies of Malagor:
    Warhammer Fantasy/9th Age: Beastmen, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Legion of Chaos, Undead Legion.
    Warhammer 40k: Chaos Space Marines, Ad-mech, Sisters of Battle
    Warmahordes: Skorne, Trollbloods, Khador, Circle Orboros

  19. #39
    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Belgium, between chair and keyboard
    Posts
    3,215

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
    Also you can't face 3 terrorgheists in a 2000pts match, you can squeeze in 2 of them but no more since you can only have 500pts in rare at that point limit and they are almost half that in points.
    So if you faced 3 then your opponent cheated.
    You forgot the one under the General ... I know it's beardy as hell, but it's legal : one as a mount under a naked Ghoul King is just under the 25% limit at 2K, two in Rare, and hordes of zombies to fill the Core req ... a real pain to face.

    Yes, I know that a "MMU" NG army is effective, mostly due to the Doom Divers, Pump Wagons and Fanatics, but I wanted to stick to my theme, so no Wagons or Divers ... my own fault really.

    That said, those three horrible humans beings are now playing Star Wars Armada, rocketting in the tournaments here in Belgium, and are STILL complete douchenozzles ... but they win, often, by a large margin, while losing friends and annoying everyone.

    I'm soooooooooooooo glad they're not in the same hobby than me anymore ... they almost drove me to smash my minis, shave my head, move to Tibet and become a monk.
    My log : Fantasy ** Updated 28/07/2015** Master List updated !
    Lorcryst's Sales Thread ** Updated 19/12/2016 ** Updated

  20. #40
    Chapter Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,146

    Re: So, why isn't anyone just playing 8th edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
    I have, infact seen someone put down 2 units with 100 night goblins in each with lords, heroes and shamans in each of them.
    Needless to say, it doesn't do well and generally lose.
    All it takes is one of those bigs spells and those big units are reduced to nothing which is the point of the powerful spells, to remove deathstars and it did just that until High Elves showed up and brought it back.
    Remember during the days when 9th Age was good enough and one of the threads on their forums was that deathstars are back and it was due to them nerfing those big spells.
    The one thing 9th age did right was put size limits and do away with stupid OP items.

    No more 40 white lions, no more BotWD, etc.

    While 1.2 was a couple steps under 1.1, 1.3 marginally improved on it, so over here we're sticking with 9th age.

    Still better than 8th edition straight off the books.

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •