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  1. #1
    Chaplain Teurastaja's Avatar
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    Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Hi guys.

    My brother and I decided to try one of older editions and build two armies from scratch as a fun project.
    We need some information because we know little about pre-8th ed. period.
    What are 'standard' army sizes in 4th/5th/6th ed.?
    Which edition requires least minis to have a fun, mostly balanced game?
    Is 6th ed. with Ravening Hordes ok for low point games?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pojko View Post
    If you're not trying to win, either for narrative or competitive reasons, it might as well be Age of Little League where everyone gets a trophy so no one feels bad.
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    If the AoS releases so far have been "the tip of the iceberg", then I can only assume that tip is placed firmly against the WFB gaming community's collective anus and the "more to come" includes higher prices, audio rulebooks in the sing along format and backpack add-ons for sigmarines.

  2. #2

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    I have no experience with these Editions but 4th and especially 5th Edition are infamously known as "Herohammer" for their vastly overpowered characters that basically degraded the rank&file troops to bystanders/cannon fodder, not unlike the End Times. But if you're into this kind of thing...

    Remember, 5th Edition was when Nagash first walked the earth... and he was in the basic army book.


    6th Edition, on the other hand, sports a distinct lack of Special Characters, making it kind of an anti-Herohammer. It is relatively mundane and down-to-earth compared to its successors but is otherwise very similar to 7th Edition, if that is any help. I also believe it is reasonably balanced. The Bretonnia book that hailed from this era was in production until the end of the world so maybe you're familiar with it.
    Last edited by Ultimate Life Form; 07-01-2017 at 19:10.

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    Veteran Sergeant Late's Avatar
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    I have no experience with these Editions but 4th and especially 5th Edition are infamously known as "Herohammer" for their vastly overpowered characters that basically degraded the rank&file troops to bystanders/cannon fodder, not unlike the End Times. But if you're into this kind of thing...

    Remember, 5th Edition was when Nagash first walked the earth... and he was in the basic army book.


    6th Edition, on the other hand, sports a distinct lack of Special Characters, making it kind of an anti-Herohammer. It is relatively mundane and down-to-earth compared to its successors but is otherwise very similar to 7th Edition, if that is any help. I also believe it is reasonably balanced. The Bretonnia book that hailed from this era was in production until the end of the world so maybe you're familiar with it.
    Nagash was already in 4th ed.

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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    The army sizes were a lot smaller in 4th/5th just go and take a look at some of the old White Dwarf battle reports from that era, or the army book photos. Unit sizes were nowhere near what they are now. Plus you get to play with all the magic cards.

    We always used to play 2500-4000 points just because that's what we wanted to play. Make sure to bring your favourite pimped up Lords

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    Chaplain Teurastaja's Avatar
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horace35 View Post
    The army sizes were a lot smaller in 4th/5th just go and take a look at some of the old White Dwarf battle reports from that era, or the army book photos. Unit sizes were nowhere near what they are now. Plus you get to play with all the magic cards.

    We always used to play 2500-4000 points just because that's what we wanted to play. Make sure to bring your favourite pimped up Lords
    Could you recommend any WD issue from that time?
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    If you're not trying to win, either for narrative or competitive reasons, it might as well be Age of Little League where everyone gets a trophy so no one feels bad.
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    If the AoS releases so far have been "the tip of the iceberg", then I can only assume that tip is placed firmly against the WFB gaming community's collective anus and the "more to come" includes higher prices, audio rulebooks in the sing along format and backpack add-ons for sigmarines.

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    Chapter Master toonboy78's Avatar
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    Could you recommend any WD issue from that time?
    WD157 empire V Orcs
    WD159 Dwarves V orc (just before dwarves ogt their powerful runic items)
    i think 164 High Elves V Chaos Dwarves

    then other i remember to be good (just not which issue)

    Chaos Dwarves V Wood Elves (elves got a right pasting)
    Dwarves V Chaos
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    Could you recommend any WD issue from that time?
    Here you go

    Some fun reading to be had there.

    https://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/cla...W/WHart4_5.htm


    I personally did not mind all the OTT special characters, in a funny kind of way they were more balanced than the custom lords. I think you just have to accept that as part of the game in that edition and embrace it. Pick your favourite special characters and go and kill stuff

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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    I remember that Dwarves vs Chaos, there was a cool Chaos Lord on Dragon conversion. Cannot remember the White Dwarf number though . . .
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Thanks guys, that will be very helpful

    Do you have any general advice on playing 4th/5th ed.?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pojko View Post
    If you're not trying to win, either for narrative or competitive reasons, it might as well be Age of Little League where everyone gets a trophy so no one feels bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadhorse View Post
    If the AoS releases so far have been "the tip of the iceberg", then I can only assume that tip is placed firmly against the WFB gaming community's collective anus and the "more to come" includes higher prices, audio rulebooks in the sing along format and backpack add-ons for sigmarines.

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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    stay away from special characters. house rule that each character can only take a single magic item of 50 points or less. this way rank-n-file troops will - occasionally - have a say in the outcome of a battle

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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Naitsabes View Post
    stay away from special characters. house rule that each character can only take a single magic item of 50 points or less. this way rank-n-file troops will - occasionally - have a say in the outcome of a battle
    special characters were very powerful in these editions, but hat can be said for all editions and even in 40k too. if you are playing them just make sure both players know they are then there are no surprises when Thorgrim rocks up to take on a goblin warlord armed with the biting blade....

    as for limits on magic items, that was seriously hindering for certain armies (like my dwarves).

    tournaments had limits of a total of 100pts worth of magic items per character which sounds more reasonable than 1 50pt item, but again it was very army dependant and to a point dependant on what size game. i agree that seeing a 150pt MAster rune of gromril (T10) would be excessive in a 2000pt game, but on a dwarf lord in a 4000pt game wouldn't be too crazy.

    the problem with a magic item limit is that you can be left with no defence for someone taking a 450pt dragon. that is ok but taking a frost blade isn't?

    GW published a tournament rules set for 2000pt games which was pretty OK, some points were:

    no lvl 4 wizards
    no allies
    no unridden monsters
    magic item limit
    no power 3 spells????? (that was a crazy one)

    as with all editions they were always some tough army builds

    the game would be more easily fixed with objectives that only troops could get thus making their role more important rather than a mechanism for delivering a character to the battle

    AoS seems to have got a better balance with some really powerful characters (Nagash, Araelle, star drakes etc), but having more reliance on the rank and file guys in the emissions
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    Hi guys.

    My brother and I decided to try one of older editions and build two armies from scratch as a fun project.
    We need some information because we know little about pre-8th ed. period.
    What are 'standard' army sizes in 4th/5th/6th ed.?
    Which edition requires least minis to have a fun, mostly balanced game?
    Is 6th ed. with Ravening Hordes ok for low point games?
    Personally I think 6th with just the RH is the best it ever got! I loved the relative simplicity of having everything in one book/booklet- though they should have got it right and stuck all the RH stuff in the main book...it could have replaced the rather feeble bestiary...then perfection would it have been, yes yes!

    Anything from 1500-3000 points would have been considered standard for those three editions. most battle reports were between those two values. 4th and 5th (which were near as makes no odds the same thing anyway) would require a few less figures, but not many less. The rank and file got cheaper, in 6th but heroes got a bit pricier, and so did magical doo-hickies.

    4/5th usually gets bashed as Herohammer- one guy striding through everything, but it wasn't like that really. There were a few tough cookies that would turn up all over the place*, and certain combos of magic items were popular, but a lot were overhyped and theres a counter to everything- a lot of the really nasty guys become a lot more down to earth when you trap them with the black gem of Gnar, or send in a hero with an item that nullifies nearby magical items...suddenly your opponents entire battle plan is reliant on a guy having to fight you in his underwear!
    Even Characters that were supposed to be scary like Archaon could be beaten up by a level 1 grey wizard (as long as he has the spell that shoots fire from his eyebrows), and the only one that routinely gave everyone a headache was Lord Kroak. But he was a stupid number of points so didn't turn up very often...

    *I always reckoned that that Tyrion chap must have been suffering marital issues...he was never at home, always off taking part in every minor border scuffle that he could find in order to avoid that nagging missus of his. Instead of confronting their issues he just avoided them, for four whole editions! The End Times must have come as something of a relief.
    Last edited by Commissar Vaughn; 10-01-2017 at 21:52.

  13. #13

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Vaughn View Post

    *I always reckoned that that Tyrion chap must have been suffering marital issues...he was never at home, always off taking part in every minor border scuffle that he could find in order to avoid that nagging missus of his. Instead of confronting their issues he just avoided them, for four whole editions! The End Times must have come as something of a relief.
    The fact that he fathered a child with the Everqueen seems to support this claim... but is it a symptom or the cause?

  14. #14
    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    What are 'standard' army sizes in 4th/5th/6th ed.?
    Anything between 1500 and 3000 points.
    2000 points was the standard pickup game size during 6th edition IIRC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    Thanks guys, that will be very helpful

    Do you have any general advice on playing 4th/5th ed.?
    Omg omg omg. I was put on earth to sing the praises of 4th/5th edition. There really needs to be a forum that gathers all 4th/5th gamers.

    A typically size battle for 4th/5th is 1,500 points. That gives you four or five good-sized units, whether regiments, warmachines, monsters etc, and the characters to lead them. Other advice is pretty army specific, but I'll do my best:

    1) Don't neglect characters... most armies really need a Champion in every frontline regiment. One of the reasons I play 4th over 5th is because the rules say that if your badass lord charges my unit, I can simply challenge him with my dinky champion and limit his combat resolution from slaughtering my champion to a measly 1 combat resolution point. Champions give one round of "Frenzied Chaos Lord of Khorne with Hydra Sword" protection in 4th Edition, which matters because games are often only 4 turns long. Give that dinky champion a nice magic item, and he may even surprise that 800 point Khorne Lord!

    2) Use allies. 4th/5th were designed with the assumption that 25% of your army list would be taken from other army books. A Wood Elf and Dwarf alliance is so much more fun and diverse than an all Wood Elf army.

    3) Take a Wizard or two, but realize that the number of power cards you get each turn is very low (2-3 cards, on average) and this is not increased at all by more or more powerful wizards. Magic has a very important and poweful role, but it is not overpowering because of the fixed limits on the Winds of Magic.

    4) 4th and 5th are often called Herohammer. Like many perspectives on the past, this is actually only half true. Yes, heroes were important. They are fully 50% of the game, I would say. Is this bad? No, it is awesome, because heroes being heroic is stupid fun. I am HAPPY to call 4th and 5th Herohammer because I wear it as a badge of pride!

    Now, the half that isn't exactly true... when people say Herohammer they usually mean it as an insult, because they are implying that heroes are unstoppable in 4th and 5th. THIS IS A FLAT OUT LIE. First of all, if you don't use the magic supplement at all, heroes are PERFECTLY balanced with regular troops. Period. Secondly, magic items (which is what people are really complaining about... NOT heroes) are designed as trump cards in 4th and 5th. We all understood this in the 1990's and seemingly no one understands that now. Magic items were powerful, but every one had a counter. Nasty, tooled up Khorne Lord bothering you? Slap him with Black Gem of Gnar, Black Amulet, Van Horstmann's Speculum. Greater Daemon of Khorne heading your way? Trap him in the upper atmosphere indefinitely with Orb of Thunder. Stick him with the Sky Arrow of Naloer to rub it in. Wanna see something funny when he finally comes down? Heart of Woe, baby! 4th and 5th magic items ultimately benefit the underdog more than the powerful. And heck, if you are still having problems, read point #2 again and take a Runed-out Dwarf Lord and a Volley Gun with the Ruin of Disguise.

    The last point shows why there is so much tactica in 4th and 5th. You can do almost anything! On that note, something important must be said: 4th/5th has the MOST tactica guides on the internet, period. 6th? Nope. 7th? Not even close. 8th or AoS? Hahaha, no no... It's 4th and 5th by a mile. The only problem is that you've probably never seen or heard of them. The thing is that 4th and 5th came out in the early days of the internet and everyone had their own fan website (a LOT of them were on GeoCities, FortuneCity etc.) Luckily, these are almost all still available for us to view thanks to the Internet Archive, Oocities, Reocities etc. You should look for Longsword's tactica (there were two iterations of this, one for 4th and one for 5th, either will do... I can provide links if you'd like). The other reason for the extreme amount of material published on 4th and 5th is that there was simply more game in them. Two hundred spells, over two hundred magic items, Chaos gifts and Chaps rewards up the wazoo, dozens and dozens of crazy templates, a proper siege rulebook, tons of boxed campaigns, the most formative army books in the history of Warhammer (which established the fluff for all later editions to follow). As editions, 4th and 5th are LOADED. If you play 4th and 5th with everything, it is an amazing experience.

    My advice is pick up a new copy of the Warhammer Magic box. It is 5th Edition and it is very common and cheap. I got my shrinkwrapped copy last year for $5 USD plus shipping. It is loaded to the gills and is a terrific buy. I prefer the artwork on the 4th edition magic expansions (there are two: Battle Magic and Arcane Magic), but all the information and cards in those were reprinted in the 5th edition Warhammer Magic box, apart from the Colleges of Magic cards (which are nevertheless listed inside the Warhammer Magic rulebook which comes in the box). The 4th Edition boxes are really nice, but they are more rare so just get the 5th edition Magic box.

    Of course, you'll need the 5th Edition Rulebook and Battle Book, but these are easily found in PDF online or second hand on eBay. PM me if you need directions.

    As for the "4th or 5th?" question... it's mostly an aesthetic decision, really. I recommend 5th edition as a base but I prefer three specific army books from 4th Edition: Undead, Chaos and High Elves (5th Edition largely reprinted 4th Edition army books, but in the case of these three, 5th Edition actually replaced them with new books that were not quite as balanced and interesting, in my opinion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teurastaja View Post
    Could you recommend any WD issue from that time?
    White Dwarf 164 has one of my favorite battle reports, High Elves vs Chaos Dwarves.

    Finally, there really NEEDS to be an online community for Herohammer players. Sorry for the ramble, but I LOVE Herohammer!

    I hope this picture of a tiny fraction of my collection will explain my feelings and excuse the above rant!

    Also, they just did a big Herohammer (5th Edition) tournament in Poland a few months ago. There are some excellent battle reports there, plus a grand battle!
    Last edited by Arnizipal; 17-01-2017 at 11:04. Reason: Merged double post

  16. #16

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Luckily, these are almost all still available for us to view thanks to the Internet Archive, Oocities, Reocities etc. You should look for Longsword's tactica (there were two iterations of this, one for 4th and one for 5th, either will do... I can provide links if you'd like).
    Please do, I would be most interested to read them.

    What about the Beastmen Infighting rule in 5th. If I remember correctly, pass a leadership or you can do nothing. Given that the army was generally average leadership, and given that it was a close combat army, I think this is an utterly crippling rule. I could understand having some form of animosity rule, but this seems way too harsh. Any idea of how to play Beastmen in 5th?
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Samsonov View Post
    Please do, I would be most interested to read them.

    What about the Beastmen Infighting rule in 5th. If I remember correctly, pass a leadership or you can do nothing. Given that the army was generally average leadership, and given that it was a close combat army, I think this is an utterly crippling rule. I could understand having some form of animosity rule, but this seems way too harsh. Any idea of how to play Beastmen in 5th?
    Oh man, my cup runneth over with Herohammer articles... be careful what you wish for! There is an ENORMOUS volume of fan articles and websites from the late 90's devoted to Warhammer Fantasy Battle 4th and 5th Edition. More are being uncovered every day thanks to Oocities and Reocities. If only we could get better access to the other early website hosting services, like FortuneCity and Angelfire. Well, I suppose it is just a matter of time before these are brought back as well!

    If you were active in the webrings and email lists back in the late 90's, you'll find many of the websites you remember with a simple Google search. For starters, try entering "site:oocities.org warhammer" into Google. But anyway, here you go:

    Longsword's Warhammer tactica. This is the 4e version, dated 1995... I think there may be an updated 5e version as well... I'll dig around this weekend. The vast majority of the tactica is 100% valid, however, so read away. This was considered one of the most formative tactica articles available for Warhammer in the 90's and everybody cited it. Longsword knew the game inside and out so well that GW asked him to write 6th Edition!

    You should also bookmark the Warhammer Fantasy Battle 5e FAQ, as it is incredibly helpful for rules questions (feel free to ask here, as well, as one of us is bound to know the answers). If you prefer 4th Edition, check out the 4e FAQ as well.

    Finally, there is a ton to be said about Beastmen Warbands in 5e. It is important to note that 5e changed the structure of Chaos armies (instead of one, huge mixed army, you now had three separate warband types... warriors, beastmen and daemons... which you could take as long as you took a warlord for each). 5e also added a bunch of unit types for Chaos, like Ungors and Bestigors. We can definitely talk tactics... what did you have in mind for your army? My initial advice is never think about a 5e army in a purist sense... you have an allies slot, use it! Diverse armies with allies are much more interesting to play and effective on the field. What you choose may depend on your opponent... maybe Dark Elf repeater bolt throwers and crossbowmen for more ranged attacks, Chaos Dwarves or Undead for their heroes, Savage Orcs for their cavalry. I usually use allies to pick the magic I want to use, which saves character points for my general, heroes and champions.

    For Beastmen specific advice, chariots are awesome in 5e and Beastman Chariots are no exception. Importantly, it is the fastest unit in your army (not exactly true, Harpies are also a terrific buy with S4, T4 and 2 wounds, but they come out of your allied points!) and they are immune to infighting. Consider scythes (they boost the power of the chariot considerably, but the also put you over 1 Victory Point for the chariot unfortunately). Chaos Hounds are a good alternative to Harpies if you are not facing war machines and want to save your allied points for a Vermin Lord or something similar (he's basically a Greater Daemon of Khorne and Tzeentch all in one!).

    Shore up the middle of your line with a big unit of Gors led by a character with Crown of Command. You can also use Valorous Standard or other cheap magic items to avoid infighting problems. I have mixed feelings on Bestigors... they are immune to infighting, but they are very expensive. Gors, on the other hand, are extremely cheap for T4 and 2 wounds... give them additional hand weapons and send them after enemy light infantry. Ungor skirmishers are dirt cheap (they are just under 5 points per model, so they get half-price equipment like goblins) and immune to infighting. Use these to screen enemy missiles, but also realize that they are good behind the lines to ward off march-blockers (skirmishers cannot be march-blocked themselves, and they can provide a buffer area to prevent enemy flyers from march blocking your regiments from behind... and skirmishers can charge in 360 degrees as well!). Ungors aren't going to win you any fights, but for 45pts for a small band of 10, you can't go wrong.

    Minotaurs with double-handed weapons can be useful for killing knights, but I often find they draw a lot of artillery fire. They do have some of the best leadership in your army, however, and are fast and do not suffer from infighting. In 4e, you could have a Minotaur Lord as long as you had a single Minotaur regiment, which was neat. In 5e, you needed to drop at least 400 odd points on an enormous Minotaur unit before you bought the 400 point Lord... I never saw a Minotaur Lord used in 5e for this reason. Point for point, a Beastlord is a much better buy. Cool model, though! I also like a lone Minotaur to chase down enemy wizards and distract archers and artillery. Not super effective, but not a big point investment either.

    A quick search came up with a few good tactica articles for Beastmen. The first one looks excellent and very thorough. The second one is a little shorter and not quite as deep, but it gives a decent overview.
    Last edited by Galadrin; 26-01-2017 at 15:39.

  18. #18

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Omg omg omg. I was put on earth to sing the praises of 4th/5th edition. There really needs to be a forum that gathers all 4th/5th gamers.
    I agree.

    I cut my teeth on this Edition and enjoy the memories and lessons this game brought. My children are in College now and I have extra time on my hands. Imagine my surprise when I was shown Age of Sigmar. The fact GW destroyed their universe in pursuit of profit and copyright shows this is not the same company I was devoted to in the 90s and 2000s. One Golden Demon, one Silver Demon, and two Bronze Demons, plus a member of the Geeks: I was devoted. Now, I am taking a pause to see what exactly is going on. O_o

    I play Orcs and Goblins and still have the original Orcs I first painted using the 'Eavy Metal guide inside the Army Book. I loved their "1, 2, 3, - then a miracle happens -, done!* painting guide that required the painter to investigate techniques. And the lore within the Army Books. The Bretonnia Army Book story of Thibault and the story of Azhag in the Orc Army Book are one main reason why I got sucked into the Lore. It engaged me and my friends who began playing around the same time. We all met at our local game store weekly and fought battles, learned tactics, and - mostly - followed the ethos laid down within those tomes. Rivalries between armies ensued, and tactics became a topic more often than not. And the Army Books were packed with nuggets of knowledge. One of the first lessons I learned in this Edition was using Magic Items to offset my army's deficiencies - a lesson from Jervis in the OnG Army Book. The battle reports were awesome too as the creators of the games were outlining their thoughts behind army composition and tactics. Most of my early games were played copying their tactics and trying them out when appropriate on the table-top. Great fluff and crunch. I will gravitate between this and 6th Edition. I'm not jumping into AoS just yet.


    I enjoy 4-5th Edition the most as it put the Hero at the front of the story and the Troops were Supporting Characters: the player running the Army was the Hero and the General was their Archetype on the table. With manageable model count, even my units Bosses and Big Bosses were named as they performed Heroic Feats in various battles. Bahgtru Bonesnappa riding his warboar Khoal - joined by da Boar Boyz led by Big Mad Drongo! (That was the Unit that won Gold in 2001.) The Big 'Unz were the foot-sloggers with Uruk in lead. Da Boyz were led by Gothmog. (I was Tolkien before Tolkien was kewl, yo.) Sid da Mad rode his Cockatrice (da Chikken uv DEFF!) into battle leading his Night Goblin units with the Bane of Bretonnia: the FANATIX! Bucket and Two-Squigs led these units, often joined by the Night Goblin Shaman Voodoo Dick who lent magical aid to Nazgob Bonecasta, Bahgtru's right-hand m... orc. Fezzik the Giant was the Cannonball Magnet and da Stoopids (Trolls) were the stumbling blocks. Chariots, Rock Lobbas, and Bolt Throwers, oh my. The OnG will always be my favorite army.

    And as the Special Characters were Special, they didn't take part in our games - unless story campaign called for it. We created our characters from scratch and developed histories for them. Stories embellished with every battle. Campaigns that stretched the breadth of the Old World.
    They were an extension of ourselves.

    The Core Rules set the rules for the world. The Army Books provided special abilities and disabilities upon each army. The Bretonnians fielded Archers - no war machines. The Empire had magic and science - but man they were slow. Orcs and Goblins were bad asses - but had Alpha Male tendencies to hoot and holler at each other for rank at the most inopportune moments... And that was just part of the World that is Warhammer.

    Those who adapt survive.

    Enjoy your game, whatever Edition you play.

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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by raginggaijin View Post
    I agree.

    I cut my teeth on this Edition and enjoy the memories and lessons this game brought. My children are in College now and I have extra time on my hands. Imagine my surprise when I was shown Age of Sigmar. The fact GW destroyed their universe in pursuit of profit and copyright shows this is not the same company I was devoted to in the 90s and 2000s. One Golden Demon, one Silver Demon, and two Bronze Demons, plus a member of the Geeks: I was devoted. Now, I am taking a pause to see what exactly is going on. O_o
    Honestly, I feel the "end of Warhammer" has been a very good thing for fans of 90's GW. GW had been beating a dead horse for over a decade in terms of both Warhammer as a setting and as a ruleset. I was much more disappointed with the way thing were going starting with 6th (which had decent core mechanics, but completely sapped all the magic, the wonder and the heroics out of the game and made the setting a drab grimdark that I felt was taking itself way too seriously. 4th/5th was bright, colourful and firmly tongue in cheek and was just more fun because of it!). When Warhammer "ended," I breathed a sigh of relief as at least one of my favorite childhood games would no longer be mistreated. I did feel empathy for those that lost "their favourite edition," though, as I realize some people only started playing in 6th, 7th or 8th as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by raginggaijin View Post
    I play Orcs and Goblins and still have the original Orcs I first painted using the 'Eavy Metal guide inside the Army Book. I loved their "1, 2, 3, - then a miracle happens -, done!* painting guide that required the painter to investigate techniques. And the lore within the Army Books. The Bretonnia Army Book story of Thibault and the story of Azhag in the Orc Army Book are one main reason why I got sucked into the Lore. It engaged me and my friends who began playing around the same time. We all met at our local game store weekly and fought battles, learned tactics, and - mostly - followed the ethos laid down within those tomes. Rivalries between armies ensued, and tactics became a topic more often than not. And the Army Books were packed with nuggets of knowledge. One of the first lessons I learned in this Edition was using Magic Items to offset my army's deficiencies - a lesson from Jervis in the OnG Army Book. The battle reports were awesome too as the creators of the games were outlining their thoughts behind army composition and tactics. Most of my early games were played copying their tactics and trying them out when appropriate on the table-top. Great fluff and crunch. I will gravitate between this and 6th Edition. I'm not jumping into AoS just yet.
    I neither have any interest nor any strong feelings at all about AoS. There is just no way that GW can ever top what they did in the GW Golden Age of the 90's. Those army books, the fluff and tactics, the amazing painting guides by the best 'Eavy Metal team that ever existed (led by the terrific Mike McVey), the best models ever made (Kev Adams Orcs & Goblins? Never, ever going to be topped.), the box sets with all the cards, the White Dwarf articles... it was the perfect storm of great gaming. I actually just bought some of the Made To Order old Blood Bowl 3rd Edition teams GW rereleased last week, as I own and play complete, brand new copies of: Blood Bowl 3rd, Man O War, Warhammer Quest (with Lair of the Orc Lord and Catacombs of Terror), Warhammer 40k 2nd, Gorkamorka, Epic 40k 3rd, Titan Legions, Talisman 3rd (with all expansions, Space Hulk 2nd, BFG, Mordheim... I'm sure there are others, my gaming shelf is a shrine to 90's GW!

    Quote Originally Posted by raginggaijin View Post
    I enjoy 4-5th Edition the most as it put the Hero at the front of the story and the Troops were Supporting Characters: the player running the Army was the Hero and the General was their Archetype on the table. With manageable model count, even my units Bosses and Big Bosses were named as they performed Heroic Feats in various battles. Bahgtru Bonesnappa riding his warboar Khoal - joined by da Boar Boyz led by Big Mad Drongo! (That was the Unit that won Gold in 2001.) The Big 'Unz were the foot-sloggers with Uruk in lead. Da Boyz were led by Gothmog. (I was Tolkien before Tolkien was kewl, yo.) Sid da Mad rode his Cockatrice (da Chikken uv DEFF!) into battle leading his Night Goblin units with the Bane of Bretonnia: the FANATIX! Bucket and Two-Squigs led these units, often joined by the Night Goblin Shaman Voodoo Dick who lent magical aid to Nazgob Bonecasta, Bahgtru's right-hand m... orc. Fezzik the Giant was the Cannonball Magnet and da Stoopids (Trolls) were the stumbling blocks. Chariots, Rock Lobbas, and Bolt Throwers, oh my. The OnG will always be my favorite army.

    And as the Special Characters were Special, they didn't take part in our games - unless story campaign called for it. We created our characters from scratch and developed histories for them. Stories embellished with every battle. Campaigns that stretched the breadth of the Old World.
    They were an extension of ourselves.

    The Core Rules set the rules for the world. The Army Books provided special abilities and disabilities upon each army. The Bretonnians fielded Archers - no war machines. The Empire had magic and science - but man they were slow. Orcs and Goblins were bad asses - but had Alpha Male tendencies to hoot and holler at each other for rank at the most inopportune moments... And that was just part of the World that is Warhammer.

    Those who adapt survive.

    Enjoy your game, whatever Edition you play.
    That sounds exactly like the right way to play, in my book. Armies had tons of character to them, heroes were actually heroes and every game generates a great story just because of all the random things that can happen. And 4th/5th were definitely the most random in their results (cards, die rolls on special tables, special rules, crazy combos), and O&G were the most random army—you NEVER know what is going to happen each game, and that is what makes it so fun!
    Last edited by Galadrin; 15-04-2017 at 12:12.

  20. #20

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Honestly, I feel the "end of Warhammer" has been a very good thing for fans of 90's GW. GW had been beating a dead horse for over a decade in terms of both Warhammer as a setting and as a ruleset.
    Truth. I enjoyed working with Thomas and Alessio because of their brilliant ability to assess a ruleset and improve upon it. Yet Jervis and Rick brought character to the Old World. Grimdark came with the focus on mechanics - as the heroes were replaced with emphasis on setting. And we both know the paradigm shift that followed. Everything happens for purpose. At least we have both ends of the spectrum to choose from.

    When Warhammer "ended," I breathed a sigh of relief as at least one of my favorite childhood games would no longer be mistreated.
    I agree.

    I neither have any interest nor any strong feelings at all about AoS. There is just no way that GW can ever top what they did in the GW Golden Age of the 90's. Those army books, the fluff and tactics, the amazing painting guides by the best 'Eavy Metal team that ever existed (led by the terrific Mike McVey), the best models ever made (Kev Adams Orcs & Goblins? Never, ever going to be topped.), the box sets with all the cards, the White Dwarf articles... it was the perfect storm of great gaming.
    If I return to Tournament play, I will delve into the Ironjawz for competitive play. Until that decision though, I am enjoying returning to the Old World with Bahgtru and his Boyz.

    That sounds exactly like the right way to play, in my book. Armies had tons of character to them, heroes were actually heroes and every game generates a great story just because of all the random things that can happen. And 4th/5th were definitely the most random in their results (cards, die rolls on special tables, special rules, crazy combos), and O&G were the most random army—you NEVER know what is going to happen each game, and that is what makes it so fun!
    Dems my ladz! Every game was an epic being written. The randomness provided spontaneity that was either prepared before hand or displayed glaring holes in the battle plan. Numerous lessons were learned by the roll of a die. And it hammered home: life isn't fair. Something's things go wrong even after you prepared. Taught me to nut up or shut up.

    That blog on Oldhammer with the Skaven battle reports is brilliant! I will be following the stories as they evolve. Keep up the hard work.
    Last edited by raginggaijin; 16-04-2017 at 02:22.

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