Major Xenos Threats

[barrangas]

I was wondering if HH detailed any major threats that weren't the Orks or Eldar. I've done some looking and found the Khrave, but most of the rest seem small and poor replacements for threats like the Necrons, Nids, and even the Tau. It would be nice to see some actual challenges from the Xenos quarter of the game for the SM. Is there anything like that or is the Great Crusade really just the Ok Crusade?

[nagash66]

Yes, book 6 extermination has some info on one such thread that took the legions tens of thousands of casualties to take out, taking the dark angels from one of the largest legion down to more or less standard size. Dont remember the details but will look it up tomorrow when i have access to my books.

Hrud migrations have also poped up in HH lore as major threats and having caused the crusade serious problems.

[barrangas]

Yes, book 6 extermination has some info on one such thread that took the legions tens of thousands of casualties to take out, taking the dark angels from one of the largest legion down to more or less standard size. Dont remember the details but will look it up tomorrow when i have access to my books.

Hrud migrations have also poped up in HH lore as major threats and having caused the crusade serious problems.

Thank you. The only ones that I've seen while looking are the Khrave and possibly the Fra'al. The Khrave do seem to be something that could be worked into an army if GW wanted to. I'd avoid the Fra'al because of the TSR property of Star Drive with the Fraal (now WotC property) to avoid any possible legal issues.

[nagash66]

Thank you. The only ones that I've seen while looking are the Khrave and possibly the Fra'al. The Khrave do seem to be something that could be worked into an army if GW wanted to. I'd avoid the Fra'al because of the TSR property of Star Drive with the Fraal (now WotC property) to avoid any possible legal issues.

So, the Rangdan Xenocides cost the 1st legion just under 50k casualties no ideas given for army, mech or titans lost, but if 50k marines go down you get a idea how serious this is. Not much info is given other then the brutal nature of the combat and the desperation to stop the destruction of the entire northern imperium by an unknown menace from the outer darkness. I know book 7 is said to have more info but i dont own that just yet, otherwise the info is spread out in books 3 and 6 of the FW HH black books 9 tho tidbits and hints are scattered around other books). Tho its all online in greater detail if you search for it.

As GW and to a lesser degree FW has largely focused on the heresy itself, little is know about the Great Crusade, tho the BL and FW book do shed some light on it here and there.

[barrangas]

I looked up the Rangdan and the only real thing the wikis mentions is they're brain eaters, like the Khrave, and might work for the Slaugh. The Khrave seem to have more of a description to the point one battle even refers to them as chiropteran, so bat-like brain eaters that can one rare occasions reach the size of a Primarch. Unfortunately since both major traits mentioned are brain eating, only one is likely to win out and the Khrave have more to work with, if one was to build an army around that. The Slaugh would be another option but the models would be difficult to make compelling as they are a humanoid shaped mass of worms.

[nagash66]

You got to keep in mind that the crusade has never been really covered in any level of detail, forget with actual tabletop enemies in mind. All we have had is glimpses, but these are enough to show us that it was not a easy struggle, up to Ullanor the whole thing could have gone south and the Imperium lost, and the more we learn the more it looks like it came pretty close to the wire at times.

[barrangas]

That's what interests me more than SM on SM action and I'd love to see that in play. I think they have a lot of potential to really go hog wild with new things that don't conflict with current fluff because the information was lost or it wasn't relevant as the threat was believed to be eliminated at least. That said I think any suitable species would have to fallen a certain range for design.

-Vaguely humanoid. I think non-humanoid would be a big risk to model and get wide appeal but it's not impossible.
-Non-insectile. If they did this they would need to be very different from Tyranids.
-Not mechanical. Again they would need to not be just a replacement for the Necrons.
-Any high tech would need to be different from the Tau, which isn't that difficult.
-Probably not a union of several allied species. While it might be appropriate, especially in the later GC as humanity becomes a large threat, it would be a pain to come up with multiple disparate species and mush them together.
-probably not one the Emperor personally helped to wipe out. You'd think he'd get it right and it would stretch believability if you wanted to play such a species against, say, the Tau. At least with the bulk of the GC you could conceivably say that the species wasn't wiped out completely but pushed to the fringes.

I have my own ideas of what could be done with the Khrave and hopefully how to make them unique both as a species and as an army. Also brain sucking aliens is a niche that is open in the game. Coming up with a viable niche is my usual stumbling block, particularly with mechanics.

[nagash66]

The hrud fall into this category, as do the Umbra.Not sure on the chronology but the Qu'orl fit it for 40k at least.

But the sounds of it the Hrud fit want to want, humanoid aliens which the Imperium tried and failed to exterminate with a riveting backstory.

[barrangas]

The Umbra would be a great cheap army, ping pong balls painted black lol. The Q'orl have potential but, to keep with fluff, would be a recent large scale threat as they're only just starting to get FTL travel. They also run the risk of being like the Nids as they have a similar build a breed to fit X role.

The Hrud would at least make a good minor faction to add in either time. The problems I can see making them a major faction is that they seem to usually rely on others for transportation and primarily being scavengers. This issue I see is, for the Hrud to compete as a major faction, they'd need to be able to field a range of models to let them compete with the various vehicles and MCs. While you can get around this easily by saying the Hrud overrun ships and use them to transport and even build larger units; still it looses some cool points for not having unique spaceships, even if it only matters to BFG. The scavenger part becomes an issue as Orks already do that with their vehicles. The one way I can think of getting around this would be going similar to the Skavens mad science creations but you have the problem of creating space Skaven. Unless GW has turned around on this I don't see that happening. Still, it's very likely I'm missing another option. Also fluff can be rewritten some or the Hrud could finally pull out the gifts the Old Ones had given them. It would be interesting to see what other gamers would like to see for any of these.

[nagash66]

With respect i think you may not have all the backround facts that exist about hrud right.But the hrud can and do move themselves, the tribes live in secret using others until numbers reach critical mass then they migrate on their own accords and means. They can also go point for point with other factions in war, hrud posses old one level tech which they know how to make and use.This is already canon, the extent of their knowledge is unknown however. Hrud migrations have been know to overrun Iron warrior fortress worlds and chapter home worlds. They can and have projected time dilation fields big enough to affect planetary bodies.

Do not mistake scavenger for tech impaired, they are not orks, they posses a train of unbroken knowledge given directly from the most advance race of being ever to grace 40k. As for space skaven aspects of that would indeed be the case, but space=fantasy is the foundation of 40k so cant really be shocked, it would only be superficial anyhow, as they look and act nothing like skaven. Hrud are intesly loyal to their clan and family, are not cowards ( just extremely secretive) and are not 'evil', they treat their 'slaves' well and genuinely care for them ( as much as drug addicted humans can be seen as pets).

May i ask have you ever had chance to read thru Xenology?

[barrangas]

This is where I've been getting my info:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hrud

I do not have Xenology unfortunately. I'm not saying that they couldn't be made into a major faction, just musing on what would have to be overcome to make them that way. They could be easily inserted as a minor faction as is, like Harliquins or Custodes, so you could run them as a full army but would still be at a disadvantage against a major faction. I understand what your saying and I also read about the threats their mass migrations are. Most of what I'm reading talks about the plasma fusil as one of their own pieces of technology rather than scavenged and how they hide out in hives and spaceships rather than discussing their own technical prowess compared to the Empire. If scavaging is an aspect that was to be kept, making the Hrud like Orks in that manner would be a potential pitfall. These are just aspects I think need to be looked at to move them into being a major faction.

I'd be curious to know, if you had creative control over making Hrud a major faction, what you would do with them? I know I have my own ideas with the Khrave as they caught my attentio and the Hrud sound like they have yours. For instance, with the Khrave's superior mastery of Warp travel over the Imperium, I was thinking what if their land vehicles were actually very slow, probably with decent armor, but could make short Warp jumps to move faster than 6" but at increased risk depending on how far they moved in a jump.

Another candidate for a 40k Army would be the Rak'gol. Unfortunately they are a new threat so they'd be out of GC era. Also I'm not sure how much of a draw back it would be to take a Fantasy Flight idea an turn it into a full GW army in case FFG decided to push for a cut.

[nagash66]

Honestly i reject any notion that factions need to be 'balanced' or be able to 'face each other' in fair fights in the background, tabletop sure but not fluff. Not that the tabletop has EVER reflected the background in terms of force composition or play-style anyhow. I quite like the idea of minor factions such as the Q'orl getting the a book and limited model release, so long as the company is open about the level of support they will get, likewise my own experiences with the hobby tell me people have no issue getting a race that wont see much support per edition so long as they know what they are buying into. A stance i believe GW is slowing getting behind.

Hrud release for me would be book, 2-3 types of infantry, normal hrud soldier, hrud slave corps, and some type of elite hrud. 2-3 HQs, so warleader, shaman archetype/historian/ techo hrud. 1-2 vehicles, but think more lizardmen/old one style stuff not tanks per se, old one level tech. A hovering ord they use to make their tunnels with ( be it laser, ultra sound or mysteries POWA!) Small walker like mechanism that project darkness/night fight around them etc. If more units are needed add in some kind of pet/monster the Hrud keep/breed or previously unknown subspecies. Their main play style issue would be it largely got utilized by Genestealer cults, as units should be able to appear and disappear. Otherwise you could have a mechanic where Hrud affect enemies negatively the closer and/or more of them are around. Be this with some kind of nerf buble, table which depends on number of unit on board or other mechanism. One could also co-op 30k night lord with hrud getting buffs during night fight and having ways to make night fight last longer.

Background wise no need to change anything, just tie it in with the age of darkness stuff in that Hrud migrations are becoming more common, if so wished the doomsday anti can be upped by either making the migrations head towards a specific region of space ( dum dum dum!) or have a prophet of Qah appear and have the hrud try to collect all the pieces/amulets/swords/souls/persons/etc needed to make Qah return. Heck you can go in the face of 40k and have them turn on chaos as Migrations start heading to the ruins of cadia for reasons....

Ultimately Hrud like many other xenos races could be used to give the tons of marine players ( me included) something to shoot at, add more scope to the setting, and give a fun new race to play. The fact that they can be found everywhere gives everyone a reason to fight them, and if every faction MUST have a doomsday scenario they come with one pre written. That being said with the rule writing skils at GW at a all time low they would quickly be forgotten and sidelined by all but the friendliest of players as Eldar/Marines/Tau and Necrons curb-stomp them with the rest of factions, just like genestealer cults.

[barrangas]

More xenos in my book is good, no matter what. I hope they bring back Kroot Mercs for 40k. For 30k I'd just rather see major factions though so I'd like to see the Hrud incorporated to be that, rather than a smaller faction. Porting them to 40k would be an added bonus. It will be interesting to see what 8th ed does with things like night fighting, inulnerable saves, cover, and armor modifiers do. There are several possibilities on how you could potentially work their darkness/distortion effect depending on how things go.