Dwarf Holds

[Freak Ona Leash]

Ich habe eine Frage meine Brudes und Schwesteren. What Dwarf Holds are still actually in Dwarf control, if only partially, and which ones have been taken and/or destroyed. I know that Karak Azgal is now held by the Dwarfs after Skalf slew some weird-name dragon. And Karaks Hirn, Norn, Azul, Izor, Kadrin(I think, or did SoC kill it?) And Karaz a Karak and Zhufbar. I know Karak Varn got flooded and destroyed, Karaz Silverspear died somehow along with Karaz Gunbad and Karak Ungor got eaten by the Skaven. Karak Vlag disappeared. But the ones I'm not sure of are Karaks Eight Peaks, Zorn and Dum. I think Karak Dum got trashed at the end of Daemonslayer, right? And Karak Eight Peaks I have seen been said tp be ruled over by the Skaven, the Goblins under Skarsnik or is under the rulership of King Belegaer. Zorn I know nothing about except it is supposedly the first ever Dwarf Hold and is located in the Southlands, but I've only seen it mentioned in the Lizardmen book. Can anyone clairfy this for a poor, background confused Freak?

[Arnizipal]

Short version:
Karag Dum is destroyed as it is effectivly located in the Chaos Wastes now. It's last occupants were rescued by Malakai and the hold was left to Chaos.

Karak Eight Peaks is partially resettled by Belegar. Most of the upper halls are in Dwarf hands again. Unfortunatly the Dwarfs live in a state of constant siege. Skarsnik and his Night Goblins attack the Dwarfs from above, and the Skaven attack them from below.

Karak Zorn is a hold only known in Dwarf legend. IIRC it was the first hold the Dwarfs ever constructed and was partially built by the Ancestor Gods, who then still walked among Dwarfenkind. It was supposedly located to the far south, where the World Edge mountains begin.

I'll try to find dig up Dwarfs: Stone and Steel to get some more info on this.

[Master Fulgrim]

Ich bin zwar kein Zwergen-Spieler, aber ich will hier auch noch etwas loswerden:
Es heißt "meine Brüder und Schwestern" und nicht "mein Bruders und Schwesters".

Aber für den Anfang ist dein Deutsch garnicht mal so schlecht .

Fulgrim

[Arnizipal]

Long answer:

Active Holds:
Karaz-a-Karak
Zhufbar
Karak Kadrin
Karak Eight Peaks (or Vala-Azrilungol : Queen of the Silver Depths)
Karak Azul
Barak Varr

Karak Hirn
Karak Izor
Karak Norn

Kraka Drak
Kraka Dorden
Kraka Ravnsvake
Kraka Ornsmotek

Lost Holds:
Karak Ungor: Fell to Night Goblins and became Red Eye Mountain. Once the Dwarfs were driven out they tried numerous times to retake the hold. Unfortunalty they were betrayed by the quality of their own defences. They made fifty attempts, but each time were driven back with great losses.

Karak Varn: Fell to the combined efforts of Orcs and Skaven, who then continued to war on each other and finally both abandoned the hold. The ruined hold is now know as Crag Mere.

Karak Azgal: Fell to greenskins and Skaven, who then left the hold as they couldn't find its hidden treasure. Later the dragon Graug the Terrible made its lair in the ruined halls, and it became know as the Dragon Crag. Skalf Dragonslayer slew the dragon while it slept, but had to flee before the Skaven and greenskins that were alerted by the dragon's death-cry. Skalf's decendants set up a small hold near the entrance of the Dragon Crag called Kazad Midghal (Gatehouse Fortress) and allow adventurers to thin the ranks of critters. This way they hope to one day retake the Dragon Crag.

Karak Drazh: Fell to Orcs and became the most powerful Orc fortress in the World's Edge. It is now know as the Black Crag.

Karak Vlag: Disappeard during the Chaos Incursion of 2301. Not a trace remained. It was as if the hold had never existed.

Lost Mines:
Ekrund (Dragonback Mountains): Fell to Orcs.

Mount Gunbad: Fell to Orcs. Briefly reoccupied once but the Dwarfs weren't able to permanently resettle the mines before being driven out again by the Orcs.

Mount Silverspear: Fell to greenskins, who renamed it Mount Grimfang after their warboss.

[The Pale Lady]

Also, the Hod of Silver Pinnacle fell to the forces of Neferata, Queen of the Vampires, though it is never stated where exactly this hold was/is.

[Freak Ona Leash]

Ich bin zwar kein Zwergen-Spieler, aber ich will hier auch noch etwas loswerden:
Es heißt "meine Brüder und Schwestern" und nicht "mein Bruders und Schwesters".

Aber für den Anfang ist dein Deutsch garnicht mal so schlecht .

Fulgrim

Er, Gesundheit? Thanks for the spelling lesson man. My German is kind of...horrible And Arnzipal, I take it that was all from Stone and Steel, right? Freak needs that book so badly... The ones with Kraka in front og their name are Norse holds, correct?

[Arnizipal]

And Arnzipal, I take it that was all from Stone and Steel, right? Freak needs that book so badly... The ones with Kraka in front og their name are Norse holds, correct?

That is was, and that they are.
You'll have to do a little digging to find Dwarfs: Stone and Steel I think, as it's been out of production for about three years now.

[Freak Ona Leash]

Ah, thank you then. I havent been able to find it at the two Indy stores near my house in the USA, so I doubt that any GW store still has it...eBay, here comes Freak!

EDIT:Well that was quick. No Stone and Steel on eBay

[Griefbringer]

Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen!

Good old WD152 has a nice article on dwarf holds - I think most of it if not all got reprinted in the 4th edition dwarf book.

[Master Fulgrim]

[IMG]Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen![/IMG]

Griefbringer, I totally believe that.

In your case I would now wash my trousers before it starts to smell!

Fulgrim

[Dargon]

Karak Eight Peaks is partially resettled by Belegar. Most of the upper halls are in Dwarf hands again.

Slight correction, Belegar and his followers occupy a citadel on the surface - effectively no more of a hold than the Dwarfs have over Karak Azgul . Skarsnik and his numerous Night Goblin tribes still hold most of the upper levels of Karak Eight Peaks (The citadel is a seperate building).

Just a thought...

[Freak Ona Leash]

Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen!

Good old WD152 has a nice article on dwarf holds - I think most of it if not all got reprinted in the 4th edition dwarf book.

Do they even wear leederhosen in Finland? And Dargon, I think the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks may just be on the surface

[Dargon]

Dargon, I think the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks may just be on the surface

I didn't mention "Halls", I mentioned "levels" , and unless there's some added fluff I'm not aware of, there's no mention of Belegar or Duregar recapturing any "upper halls", just the Citadel. Arnzipal's post made it sound as if they had recaptured a significant portion of the city, when the reality is they "control only a tiny part of this once great city". Karak Eight Peaks isn't a single building, it's a vast city (the largest and oldest bar Karak Zorn). Occupying a single citadel of all of Karak Eight Peaks is like saying they occupy, say, the Empire State Building of all of New York City. To quote the 4th Edition book, "they are lucky to maintain the most fragile of toe-holds amongst the ruins".

Just a thought...

[Freak Ona Leash]

I know Karak Eight Peaks is not a single building. One wold imagine that becuase there are eight peaks, the re is more than one building. And I seem to remeber somewhere mentioning Belegaer taking the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks. Though, that might've just been something Freak dreamed up. It happens

[Arnizipal]

I didn't mention "Halls", I mentioned "levels" , and unless there's some added fluff I'm not aware of, there's no mention of Belegar or Duregar recapturing any "upper halls", just the Citadel.

*Opens the mightiest book in Dwarf Lore "Dwarfs: Stone & Steel"*

"The entire ground level of the hold has been reoccupied, and so have the King's chambers, the Great Hall, the foundries and a few clan halls. "

See, it's a little more that just the ground level (though not much).
And for the record, Karak Eight Peaks might be the eldest hold, but Karaz-a-Karak is larger (it holds 350 000 people vs 280 000 in Karak Eight Peaks).

[Dargon]

"The entire ground level of the hold has been reoccupied, and so have the King's chambers, the Great Hall, the foundries and a few clan halls. "

That would be the added fluff I wasn't aware of .

The 4th Edition Dwarf book seems to contradict the above information.

"Although the Dwarfs have managed to reach some of the old mines and recover many valuable treasures, they have never succeeded in expanding their control beyond the citadel."

"the Dwarfs were able to mount several successful expeditions into the mountains where they recovered a number of great treasures and and discovered some of the old tombs of the kings. However, they were still unable to expand their territory any more."

Though from what I've heard, it wouldn't be first time the two books were in direct conflict - Dwarf age as an example.

And for the record, Karak Eight Peaks might be the eldest hold, but Karaz-a-Karak is larger (it holds 350 000 people vs 280 000 in Karak Eight Peaks).

An assumption on my part - based on Karak Eight Peaks incorporating eight mountains, and the fact that it originally held the entire Dwarf Population before they spead themselves out across the mountains. Obviously there was a significant population boom in the 2000 years between Karak Eight Peaks founding, and Karaz-A-Karak's founding.

Just a thought...

[Arnizipal]

An assumption on my part - based on Karak Eight Peaks incorporating eight mountains.

Ah, but you see, Karak Eight Peaks isn't built inside eight mountains, it is surrounded by them. Part of the hold's defence was the sheer impassibility of the snowy peaks around it.

BTW: Karaz-a-Karak is founded 'only' 450 years after Karak Eight Peaks.
2000 years after the founding of Karak Eight Peaks Karaz-a-Karak becomes the capital of the Dwarf empire.

[Freak Ona Leash]

And I believe Stone and Steel was printed in 2000 or therabouts. Old fluff is superceded by new fluff I believe

[Dargon]

BTW: Karaz-a-Karak is founded 'only' 450 years after Karak Eight Peaks.
2000 years after the founding of Karak Eight Peaks Karaz-a-Karak becomes the capital of the Dwarf empire.

Odd, the Warhammer Timeline over at Critical Hit makes no mention of Karaz-A-Karak being built in -4650 IC (though it does mention Karak Azul and Karak Izril/Azgul) even though it uses "Dwarfs: Stone & Steel" as a source. Also both the Dwarf and Elf timelines describe Karaz-A-Karak as a, "newly founded Dwarf stronghold" in -2839 IC. I was always under the impression Karaz-A-Karak was the last of the Dwarf Holds to be built in the Worlds Edge Mountains - built specifically for the purpose of being the Dwarf capital (much like Canberra down here in Australia).

Just a thought...

[RobC]

I was under the impression that Dwarf history is calculated from the foundation of Karaz-a-Karak, which would suggest it is one of the oldest if not the oldest stronghold.

Oh and if you're wondering about Karak Eight Peaks, remember the name was originally 'Karag' - mountain, rather than Karak - stronghold. The change of name is just another example of background inconsistency, I'm afraid.