Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 224

Thread: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Commander Lady's Champion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    The Deep, Dank Mists of Scutty Shropshire
    Posts
    493

    If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    If all Gods are Chaos Gods ultimately (see horders of chaos book) doesn't that mean that indirectly all the people are the Warhammer World are indirectly worshipping at least 1 of the great 4?

    If this is so then why do the Chaos armies slaughter all through Kislev and the Empire? Surely all the inhabitants are worshipping Chaos Gods anyway, so basically the Gods would be killing their own followeres.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In the holloways
    Posts
    3,831

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    *sigh*
    It doesn't work like that.

    All gods owe their existance to human belief and emotion. The warp gives strong feelings form. The strongest emotions, those we all share and cannot control, have manifested as insane, capricious warp entities. But, because the warp is nothing like reality, there are no complete distinctions. Even Khorne and Slaanesh have the occasional overlap, despite their usually being sworn enemies.

    The lesser gods embody lesser emotions and/or beliefs, and as such some of their energies are shared by the Chaos gods. If you're a worshipper of Ulric, you will think it fine to enter a rage in battle. But while your battlefield prowess might benefit Ulric, the underlying raw emotion will feed Khorne. If you're a davout Shallyan, the hope you feel in helping the poor and downtrodden will also feed Nurgle.

    I've not explained this very well, but it is at the heart of the Warhammer mythos and I find it quite exasperating that so many gamers seem to completely miss the point.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master ryng_sting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lichfield, Staffordshire.
    Posts
    2,758

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    The answer is that they are, but also that they're not.

    Each of the major 4 powers represents, at their core, one of the strongest mortal emotions. Khorne represents rage , Slaanesh pleasure, Tzeentch hope, and Nurgle despair (disease isn't an emotion). Each has since branched out to encompass other, related emotions. Rage leads to hate, which leads to violence, which leads to war. So Khorne has become not only the god of rage, but also the god of war, blood, hate, the urge to destroy and dominate, slaughter, and martial prowess. This is why the Chaos powers are so powerful - the core emotions that form them are so broad.

    This is where other gods fit in. Other gods are based on more specific emotions or concepts, which is partly why they are less powerful. If each Chaos god is a space of land, the other gods would be buildings upon them. Ulric, like Khorne, stands for martial prowess, contempt for the weak and self-suffiency; so he stands somewhere in Khorne's 'zone'. Shallya, similarly, stands on Tzeentch's territory, standing as she does for hope and mercy in the face of despair and entropy, which are the domain of Tzeentch's great adversary, Nurgle. This means the lesser gods are connected to them, but not under their control in any way, shape or form. Each has drives and goals that oppose those of the Chaos gods. Sigmar, among other things, stands for self-suffiency and unity in the face of Chaos, and the righteous power to smite evil.

    Sound simple, so far?

    Now imagine the places where each of these zones overlap. There you find other gods: the Horned Rat lies somewhere between Nurgle and Tzeentch, while Myrmidia and Sigmar, as martial gods, stand on Khorne's territory. This gets even more complicated when you take into account the gods who were once mortal...

    Only excessive levels of each god's core emotion give them any direct power over mortals. True, every minor squabble or brawl might empower Khorne in some minor way, but these are barely crumbs compared to the food he can find elsewhere. It is known that the gods ignore other mortals in order to can lean on those who best nourish them and go on nourishing them.
    Last edited by ryng_sting; 21-08-2005 at 13:09.
    Standards are always out of date. That's what makes them standards.

    Alan Bennett

  4. #4
    Brother Sergeant barbarella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    45

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Also I don't think khorne is particularly fussy who gets killed, even his own followers, as long as there's plenty of bloodshed.

  5. #5

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady's Champion
    If all Gods are Chaos Gods ultimately (see horders of chaos book) doesn't that mean that indirectly all the people are the Warhammer World are indirectly worshipping at least 1 of the great 4?
    Nope.

    You only worship Khorne if you worship in his name, and likewise with Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Verena, Shallya, Sigmar, Ulric, Taal, Morr, The Horned Rat, Hashut, Asuryan, Lileath, Kurnous, Khaine, Khaine, Khaine, Vaul, Grimnir, Valaya, Grungni, Sotek, Ranald, Haendryk etc.

    Chaos, as in the army of spiky gits in the game, is not the totality of Chaos.
    That faction, and the rest of Chaos, should have a clear distinction between them. To help one isn't necessarily to help the other.


    The nature of the Gods is also quite complex in ways, but once you've got the basic concept it's actually quite simple.
    They're sentient points in a melting pot of emotions, and the bits that form one God are also part of the bits that form another God.


    Now, the Chaos Gods are the simplist and most basic form of this emotional soup.
    Between them they encompass all the elements, and are at the very heart of them.
    You see, not everyone knows about Ulric. Ulric is a complex God, with many aspects to his nature and a clearly defined geneology (is that the right word for it?) He is a war god, and many other things.
    People that do not know of him will not worship him, or regard or observe him. However, all people know hate, rage, and anger. As soon as you give those base emotions a name, you are worshipping Khorne. It is far easier to indirectly worship the Greater Powers than it is to indirectly worship a God from the civilised pantheons.



    Much, much, MUCH more to say on the subject, but I'll cut myself short here
    The worst thing about censorship is ***** ** *********!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyHarborc
    IMHO, wargaming is a social event NOT a "get even with the world" event.
    I have no words. I burned my dictionary and I have no words.

  6. #6
    Commander Lady's Champion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    The Deep, Dank Mists of Scutty Shropshire
    Posts
    493

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    I thought Slaanesh was excess, not pleasure?

  7. #7
    Chapter Master ryng_sting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lichfield, Staffordshire.
    Posts
    2,758

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Excess is not an emotion but a state deriving from pleasure, which is an emotion. Pleasure comes from many sources. It can come from taking pleasure in fine wine or food, or torturing animals. Slaanesh doesn't care. Excess (and selfishness) is the inevitable destination for his followers: each sensation they take makes them more jaded and desperate, so they plumb ever further depths of depravity, which numb them even more, and so on. Slaaneshi worship - to borrow MvS's metaphor - is like a drug habit.
    Standards are always out of date. That's what makes them standards.

    Alan Bennett

  8. #8

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Well the way I take it why the chaos gods are more powerful then the rest is because they let you give in too your baser instincts. So that is why khorne, tzeentch, nurgle and slannesh get so many followers and of course the more followers the more powerful a god because they are feeding off of those emotions.

  9. #9
    Chapter Master librerian_samae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    the only county with no motorway...
    Posts
    1,440

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    if you go by that theory though, just how POWERFULL would the horned rat be?!?!?!

  10. #10

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Don't know much about fantasy battles so I don't know but from that experision i would think pretty powerful

  11. #11
    Chapter Master metro_gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    1,483

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    a little off topic... but there was a thread like this over here... in which someone quoted a interview with Gav on the matter... for the life of me i can't find it today... anyone know where it is... to post over here?

  12. #12
    Commander brother_fandango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Fargo, ND
    Posts
    548

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    NURRGGLEEEE! *slight chuckle*

  13. #13
    Chapter Master metro_gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    1,483

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    found it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevok
    I'm just going by what Gav said a while ago.

    Do you want the 'real' answer, on the answer as perceived by an educated inhabitant of the Warhammer world.

    In real terms, as described in Hordes of Chaos, all gods are but aspects of the four Great Powers. Think of four overlapping circles within a larger circle. The large circle is Chaos, or what we refer to in the rules as Chaos Undivided. Within that are the four Great Powers. Where they overlap, there are concurrent and conflicting entities which bear portions of the vague consciousness of the Great Powers. Any lesser god will be a dot or smaller circle overlapping the diagram across the relevant Greater Powers. The example of the Horned Rat is a good one, as it is obviously dominated by Nurgle, but does have elements of Tzeentch in there as well.

    If you are talking about perceptions of the inhabitants, then they are unaware of the above (or driven mad by it if they find out!). They are aware that there is a large pantheon of gods, includig the four Great Powers. To them, each is distinct, although some may have different names for the same gods for example, the marauder peoples have many different names for the Great Powers, and some may even have several names for the same Great Power.

    GAV
    i don't find it a better explantion than the others... but i do find it more official...

  14. #14
    Veteran Sergeant Outcast995's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    79

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    answer: the over lapping emotional theory applies to most gods but their are a few exceptions

    Lizardmen: techinically most of their gods are old ones who have gone or died

    Tomb kings: Dont know what their god are but they where invented before cause came thuse cant be imbodment of cause(pressumed to be old ones to)

    their might be a few others but i only know alot about half of warhammers major religons.
    Yep its me

  15. #15
    Chapter Master metro_gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Slovenia
    Posts
    1,483

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    well i wouldnt be so sure...

    wouldn't belief in these gods... lizard and tomb king... create a place for them amongst the panthenon of other gods in the warhammer world...

    as sigmar became a god by belief in him... so too did sotek become a god long after he died or left or whatever...

  16. #16
    Chapter Master ryng_sting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lichfield, Staffordshire.
    Posts
    2,758

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Sotek is the only Lizardman god to have existed post-polar catastrophe. The suggestion is that he's the manifestation of Lizardmen vengeance and anger, and desire to defend their homeland. Sigmar generated his own godhood; belief merely fuelled its rise. Once a god enters the aethyr, the abode of gods, they're setting up shop in the gaps occupied by the big four, regardless of how they got there. This includes Sigmar.
    Standards are always out of date. That's what makes them standards.

    Alan Bennett

  17. #17
    Chapter Master RobC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In the holloways
    Posts
    3,831

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    There are no gaps between the big four, technically speaking. It's just that the lesser gods offer a more focused aspect on an emotion or belief. And thus they are much less powerful.

  18. #18
    Commander shadowprince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    938

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    So does this mean the elf gods like Isha Kuronous and Khain are minor aspects of chaos, becuase they where here long before the first incursian of chaos, and all the embodiments of isha are orderly
    Quote Originally Posted by Hideous Loon
    I think that shadowprince is a tad anarchistic. .
    MALAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar von Toussaint
    The High Elves are like the Israelis on crack: sure they're reservists but I'd take them against any army in the world
    Remember you have to catch me to prosecute

  19. #19
    Chapter Master Eldacar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    1,940

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Yes. More detail, as given in a post on Asur.org by Arquinsiel:

    As per 1st ed WHFRP all dieties are merely strong chaos daemons. They are not "representations of emotional states of sentient beings" as has been suggested but instead a life force created of pure chaos (henceforth refered to as a daemon) which can be influenced to a degree by mortals who put the effort in. As such, the potential for overlaping but essentially different and seperate entities is extremely high, probability pointing to an exponential number of them taking similar but minutely different forms (can anyone say "lesser daemon"?). This also explains the need for ritual that all dieties require, their very identity is re-inforced by being told over and over again by thousands of mortals what they are (and ends up giving them a huge head).

    In this understanding of things the Elven gods are daemons which were bound into the service of the elven race by powerful mages during the golden age before the collapse of the polar warpgates (also from 1st ed WHFRP). As such, it is reasonable to assume that the entities bound by the elven mages to help the elven people are not those which have historically tried to destroy them.

    However, should it become the prevalent belief that Khorne and Khaine are the same thing amongst their respective worshipers then the two entities will find themselves becoming increasingly similar to the point of being nearly identical. They will however retain some minor differences but these will be trivial in nature and mostly minor flukes in probability.

    In a similar vein, mortals who become diefied are not simply "good" dieties removed from chaos, they instead become daemons of the paticular moral or ethical absolute their worshippers see them. This is known to us already, and is where daemon princes come from (Sigmar, for example, is likely to be a daemon prince of Law).

    The same case for a multi-aspected diety may be made for the Great Harlequin and Loec, the previous two and Lileath, Liadriel and Adamnan-na-Brionha, Liadriel and Slaanesh, Morai-Heg and Slaanesh, Morr and Morai-Heg, Hoeth and Slaanesh, Hoeth and Tzeentch, Vaul and Hashut, Shayalla and Isha and pretty much every diety out there.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,336

    Re: If all Gods are Chaos Gods...

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowprince View Post
    So does this mean the elf gods like Isha Kuronous and Khain are minor aspects of chaos, becuase they where here long before the first incursian of chaos, and all the embodiments of isha are orderly

    to play devils advocate:-
    but they worship or fear khaine? he existed back in the ancient times

    personly i dont like the whole are and arnt formule of the gods its lazy" oh look even good adds to evil your never gonna win cus you draw on the same emotions and ultimatley feed your enemy"

    there should be at leat 1 god or a few who is seperate from that cannon sutch as a god of light or somthing (i supose the old ones could fit in here or sigmar but im not too sure bout him)

    its cannon yes, and ok i have to accept it but in my mind i can see why its done the way it is even if i dont like it

    p.s. nagash he could be conciderd the god of the undead and if nagash did wipe all life the chaos gods would just look for a new world to conquer
    Last edited by ghost21; 10-04-2007 at 02:44.

Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Hordes of Chaos, guide for newcommers (Long)
    By Neknoh in forum Warhammer: The Old World Tactics
    Replies: 326
    Last Post: 09-12-2008, 12:00
  2. Chaos
    By BloodiedSword in forum 40K Background
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 12-07-2007, 13:29
  3. Who is Malal?
    By Justicar Jacob in forum 40K Background
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 08-07-2005, 17:23
  4. Chaos 2k.
    By PelsBoble in forum Warhammer: The Old World Tactics
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-06-2005, 18:14

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •